If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.
So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.
Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born.
Ok, so you are saying there was a "you" before you were born?
Ha, not saying that at all. I'm just trying to convey why I'm not bothered about the possibility that when the lights go out they stay out. If there isn't a pre-life, or after-life, then one can't feel anything positive or negative before or after. So the fact that I have no recollection of anything preceding my birth, and am perfectly comfortable with that, then I guess I don't really understand why I should fear that same state of non-cognition after I die.
I understand, and I don't think one should fear death either, sorry for being maybe a bit rude.
I don't think you came off as rude at all! I enjoy the discussion.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,321
I find it a bit strange that creationists take the word of one book regarding how life came to be on earth when there are literally thousands of others from a scientific viewpoint that explain how it evolved. The weight of evidence supporting evolution rather than creation is astounding. How does one ignore that? Once a person understands that, understands something as basic as evolution, it seems to me it would follow that, other than the parts that are verified by other accounts of history, everything else the Bible says would come into question. A little logic goes a long way.
And this: Religion tells people it is wrong to question the Bible. If there is a God, and that God is benevolent, why would that God punish people for using the intellect they were given to question things, even the Bible which was written by other people? That makes no sense. That kind of God would be absurd.
Evolution and creation are two different things. Evolution is scientific fact. But evolution doesn't explain HOW we were created. Only the evolution process.
Agreed. I don't think God would punish us for using our brains and questioning. The people that believe that aren't strong enough in their faith and only believe out of fear and are only in it for the wrong reasons. Most likely to be condescending to others
I think they are the same thing. I think evolution is how we were created.
And where did evolution come from? It came from "prelife" -- "a
chemical system that can lead to information and diversity, and that is
capable of selection and mutation, but does not yet have the ability to
self-replicate."
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
I like this little debate between Colbert and Gervais. Colbert is smart on the god side and Gervais is smart on the atheist side. Gervais just owns him though.
Love the points about religious books and science books and the 3000 gods
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I get agitated with the number of people at Costco on a Saturday. I can't imagine a heaven occupied by every single person that ever lived as well as every single animal of every type that has ever lived. Just trying to comprehend what that must be like is enough to make me take comfort in my belief that when we're dead we're dead. Living forever with every other living thing with no end and no escape seems a little nightmarish to me. That is way more scary and overwhelming than going to sleep forever.
So you can imagine how it would be to not exist? Why would heaven be crowded like that Costco place, I think some things are hard for us to understand but I don't think it's crowded.
Yes, I can imagine how it would be to not exist after I die. I imagine I'll feel exactly the same way I felt before I was conceived/born.
Ok, so you are saying there was a "you" before you were born?
Ha, not saying that at all. I'm just trying to convey why I'm not bothered about the possibility that when the lights go out they stay out. If there isn't a pre-life, or after-life, then one can't feel anything positive or negative before or after. So the fact that I have no recollection of anything preceding my birth, and am perfectly comfortable with that, then I guess I don't really understand why I should fear that same state of non-cognition after I die.
I understand, and I don't think one should fear death either, sorry for being maybe a bit rude.
I don't think you came off as rude at all! I enjoy the discussion.
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
Thank you for contributing so much to this thread, I hope it doesn't take up too much of your time.
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
so we all become vegetarians in heaven? got it...makes total sense
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,321
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
"Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to
believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods
somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come
up with. "
Is this how you hope to winover non-believers, by making a statement that has zero to do with anything anyone here has said? "Humanity all hatched out from under a rock" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or anything else anyone has said here. And I don't remember anyone here "coming up" with any of theirown absurd theories about how humans came to be. I've only seen two theories: the natural process known as evolution, or the invented theory that a god whose existence is nowhere near proven created humans out of dust (or was it clay?) and we all started from two fully formed, fully human adults. Think about it RYME. Which makes sense?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
My biology teacher told us we were made from stars.
We are, indeed, literally stardust. Physicist Brian Cox explains nicely in his fascinating BBC series Wonders of the Universe how elements are created.
I'll try one more time. You don't recall any of this in Genesis. It's the first & second chapter. It's all there. But there are certain words there that need to be translated to Hebrew so you can fully understand what it's saying. This man, "the man", which in the Hebrew is "eth-ha'adham", (The ruddy-complexioned, liable to blush red in the face, man), was formed by God for a spacific purpose. God did not have a man to till the ground, in other words, a farmer. He already had men which He created to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, (these are the different races) and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. This "man, Adam", He placed in a special garden. He formed this man. He created the males and the females, and the races on the sixth day, and then rested on the seventh day. He did not form "the man , Adam, until after He rested.
Just so I'm clear - you say "translated to Hebrew". Are you sure you mean this? Because the original texts were not written in English, to be translated to Hebrew; they were written in Hebrew and Aramaic (OT) and Greek (NT), going through many iterations before being translated to English.
If you're going to claim scholarship here, please be accurate.
Why don't you just ask us to rave about how smart you are? The rest of us will just carry on with our lives understanding exactly what he fucking meant.
I like this little debate between Colbert and Gervais. Colbert is smart on the god side and Gervais is smart on the atheist side.
I have always tried to give Colbert the benefit of the doubt. But he says he believes in god in the form of three ways - he was not prepared for that question. That whole banter is owned by Gervais. Yet no one was out to own anything but it is quite obvious that Colbert bit off a bit more than he could chew by going head to head with a realist.
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
"Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to
believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods
somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come
up with. "
Is this how you hope to winover non-believers, by making a statement that has zero to do with anything anyone here has said? "Humanity all hatched out from under a rock" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or anything else anyone has said here. And I don't remember anyone here "coming up" with any of theirown absurd theories about how humans came to be. I've only seen two theories: the natural process known as evolution, or the invented theory that a god whose existence is nowhere near proven created humans out of dust (or was it clay?) and we all started from two fully formed, fully human adults. Think about it RYME. Which makes sense?
I was trying to get a chuckle out of that. I know that you don't think that people hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere. Smile
Post edited by RYME on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,321
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
"Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to
believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods
somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come
up with. "
Is this how you hope to winover non-believers, by making a statement that has zero to do with anything anyone here has said? "Humanity all hatched out from under a rock" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or anything else anyone has said here. And I don't remember anyone here "coming up" with any of theirown absurd theories about how humans came to be. I've only seen two theories: the natural process known as evolution, or the invented theory that a god whose existence is nowhere near proven created humans out of dust (or was it clay?) and we all started from two fully formed, fully human adults. Think about it RYME. Which makes sense?
I was trying to get a chuckle out of that. I know that you don't think that people hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere. Smile
I know and I shouldn't give you a bad time. I just think that if you want to attract people to a religion, or a way of life or a philosophy or a great band, you might consider to appealing to a rational set of ideas. As much as I sound like I criticize religious people here, I actually admire people of faith who take an in-context/spiritual, as opposed to literal/fundamentalist approach. My own father has work in the Presbyterian church for many decades and although it is not my thing, I appreciate his approach. He understands a lot of science and evolution and such but has faith in a Christian higher being. Same with people like Jim Wallis who wrote God's Politics and the late great Malcolm Boyd, "The Gay Priest" who wrote a very cool little book called, "Are You Running With Me, Jesus?"
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
If people don't believe in God, they don't believe they are created for any special purpose. And even if they don't believe, they must think it's pretty incredible that we actually are here ! If death means only death, Won't death feel very scary, when it's the ultimate stop? Isn't it sad to think life is only a coincidence.
Even how hard I try I can't imagine how it would be to not exist, and I have very good imagination.
We're animals. Animals die. It's sad but it's true.
I believe also animals and everything with som kind of life returns to God when they die.
I use scripture to backup what I'm saying. If I don't do that, then you are simply reading my opinions, and my opinions don't amount to a hill of beans. Non-believers can believe what ever they want. If the want to believe that humanity all hatched out from under a rock in the woods somewhere, they are free to think that, or whatever else they can come up with. Good news Annafalk! Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture. Isaiah 11 Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them. child-(We are His children.) 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores) 8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore) 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings) So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
Thank you for contributing so much to this thread, I hope it doesn't take up too much of your time.
I think it's fun. People toss out some good questions. And I appreciate being challenged on things. I don't claim to have all the answers. But it's fun to pick out a question or two and try to answer them.
My biology teacher told us we were made from stars.
We are, indeed, literally stardust. Physicist Brian Cox explains nicely in his fascinating BBC series Wonders of the Universe how elements are created.
I was raised to believe and was used to go to our catholic church once a week. Spend my childhood with friends around that environment. It was a good childhood. Around 15 I became lazy going to church and lost interest...my friends changed etc...but I think I still believed. Then life happened and I lost my husband. Everything changed then...also my view on religion changed. Not only because of that, I just can't believe in a "life after death" anymore. I tried, I really did...I even raised my son a little bit in that way. I just thought I should give him a chance to make his own experiences and therefor getting a chance to chose by himself what to believe. It didn't help me to be honest. I just don't believe in something like a heaven anymore, what then makes me being a non-believer...lol...And well, I'm actually feeling ok with it. There is energy I believe in, a kind of spirit and that every kind of life just goes back into another kind of energy. I really second Gervais explanation from Colberts Late Show.
But I also believe that a lot of human beings just *need* something to believe and to trust in! That's probably why all these religions are existing. And bc it's just natural for human beings to try to understand everything, we are finding ways to explain ourselves things like life after death etc. For the really scary parts like that our lifes will just end, we are going to tell ourselves to believe in god and a life in peace without pain and struggles with him and our beloved once... Hey...if it helps...great! Nothing wrong with it. People, especially when they are having hard times (from wars, poverty, etc) or even just bc they are like it, need something to hold on, to have faith in to go on. So I believe that's good, as long as it's positiv, like there is a community you can trust in and find hope or help. It doesn't matter how it's called. That's how it should be.
It's a different story what the institution and so called "church" made out of it over all these years. That's men made. This is the "Concept of god" which is made to be abused by humans who try to extract advantages from it. People who make others fight in religious wars for the wrong reasons. That's how humans are too. Selfish, radical, cruel...
But the basic thoughts about community, charity and offered help in this "Concept of god" could be positive and much needed for everybody. So that's what the Concept of god means to me: I try to believe in the good inside of people, community and charity, truth and the willing to be a good loyal person. I don't need a church or a figure like god but good people to believe in. It's the We what is counting...that's god for me...the whole thing... If you need to go to a place to share your believes, great, just do it, and make something good with it. If you don't believe in god, that's good too... As long as we give people space for themselves and their believes everybody should be fine with it. Just respect each other! Show more love and empathy! Try to forgive...
Oh well I know...it's too often just wishful thinking... If more people would act a little bit more like that we would live in a much better world... I still hope though...for a better world...Maybe I'm a dreamer...
Being challenged at make believe ideas isn't a challenge. Just move the goal posts.
How do you know that it's all make-believe? And since I do believe what I've highlighted here, what does that make me?
Aside from the silly supernatural bullshit like the talking snake, the global flood and the boat big enough for millions of animals, the man who lives inside a whale, and the parting of the Red Sea...
It's self-contradictory in it's most basic tenets. God can't claim perfection and infallibility and then say, "oops, I need a do-over. Noah, build a boat." God can't be vain and jealous and vengeful and perfect all at the same time. God can't claim to be the embodiment of love and banish people to eternal suffering. God can't be omnipotent (or even make a shred of sense) and still need His Son (which is really him) to become human and die (but only for a few days) so that He can forgive other people's sins. And so on and so forth. It's not even a well-constructed myth.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
goldrush
everybody knows this is nowhere Posts: 7,579
If someone believes in God, how could it possibly be a stretch to believe that Heaven is infinite in size??
Not trying to be facetious but whenever I try to picture an infinite Heaven that has room for everyone that has ever lived I always think of this scene:
I was raised to believe and was used to go to our catholic church once a week. Spend my childhood with friends around that environment. It was a good childhood. Around 15 I became lazy going to church and lost interest...my friends changed etc...but I think I still believed. Then life happened and I lost my husband. Everything changed then...also my view on religion changed. Not only because of that, I just can't believe in a "life after death" anymore. I tried, I really did...I even raised my son a little bit in that way. I just thought I should give him a chance to make his own experiences and therefor getting a chance to chose by himself what to believe. It didn't help me to be honest. I just don't believe in something like a heaven anymore, what then makes me being a non-believer...lol...And well, I'm actually feeling ok with it. There is energy I believe in, a kind of spirit and that every kind of life just goes back into another kind of energy. I really second Gervais explanation from Colberts Late Show.
But I also believe that a lot of human beings just *need* something to believe and to trust in! That's probably why all these religions are existing. And bc it's just natural for human beings to try to understand everything, we are finding ways to explain ourselves things like life after death etc. For the really scary parts like that our lifes will just end, we are going to tell ourselves to believe in god and a life in peace without pain and struggles with him and our beloved once... Hey...if it helps...great! Nothing wrong with it. People, especially when they are having hard times (from wars, poverty, etc) or even just bc they are like it, need something to hold on, to have faith in to go on. So I believe that's good, as long as it's positiv, like there is a community you can trust in and find hope or help. It doesn't matter how it's called. That's how it should be.
It's a different story what the institution and so called "church" made out of it over all these years. That's men made. This is the "Concept of god" which is made to be abused by humans who try to extract advantages from it. People who make others fight in religious wars for the wrong reasons. That's how humans are too. Selfish, radical, cruel...
But the basic thoughts about community, charity and offered help in this "Concept of god" could be positive and much needed for everybody. So that's what the Concept of god means to me: I try to believe in the good inside of people, community and charity, truth and the willing to be a good loyal person. I don't need a church or a figure like god but good people to believe in. It's the We what is counting...that's god for me...the whole thing... If you need to go to a place to share your believes, great, just do it, and make something good with it. If you don't believe in god, that's good too... As long as we give people space for themselves and their believes everybody should be fine with it. Just respect each other! Show more love and empathy! Try to forgive...
Oh well I know...it's too often just wishful thinking... If more people would act a little bit more like that we would live in a much better world... I still hope though...for a better world...Maybe I'm a dreamer...
Honest, gorgeous and relatable post, kce. I'm so sorry for the loss of your husband and thank you for your openness in sharing your road.
This is the kind of thinking, attitude and compassion that is needed, always.
I am not anti-science, but the thing about science that makes me laugh is the level of certainty that exists in the scientific community. Like the earth and humanity is from space dust. It is a theory. It could be a great theory, but nonetheless a theory.
I am not anti-science, but the thing about science that makes me laugh is the level of certainty that exists in the scientific community. Like the earth and humanity is from space dust. It is a theory. It could be a great theory, but nonetheless a theory.
The term "theory" is used differently in science than how it is commonly used. It refers to an explanation of some aspect that has been proven repeatedly by validated measurements. Thus the "theory of evolution" isn't some set of guesses; it is a proven and observable phenomenon. Same with many other theories. There are valid reasons for certainty.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I am not anti-science, but the thing about science that makes me laugh is the level of certainty that exists in the scientific community. Like the earth and humanity is from space dust. It is a theory. It could be a great theory, but nonetheless a theory.
The term "theory" is used differently in science than how it is commonly used. It refers to an explanation of some aspect that has been proven repeatedly by validated measurements. Thus the "theory of evolution" isn't some set of guesses; it is a proven and observable phenomenon. Same with many other theories. There are valid reasons for certainty.
Exactly.
bootlegger, just to make it clear, here's the definition:
"A scientific theoryis a well-substantiated explanationof some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have
been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such
fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world."
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
And where did evolution come from? It came from "prelife" -- "a chemical system that can lead to information and diversity, and that is capable of selection and mutation, but does not yet have the ability to self-replicate."
More here:
https://phys.org/news/2009-09-evolution.html
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Good news Annafalk!
Animals will be there in heaven. God loves His animals. So all your cats dogs that have passed on, they wil already be there when you get there & happy to see you. But they won't have their canine teeth. There are no carnivores in heaven. For there is no flesh. Here is your documentation. Now He doesn't mention every species of animals here, but I think that you'll get the picture.
Isaiah 11
Vs 6. The wolf (which would include dogs) also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard (cats) shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead (care for) them.
child-(We are His children.)
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.(see no carnivores)
8 And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice (viper's) den. (snakes will be there to, just not dangerous anymore)
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.(this is the sign of the fullness of blessings)
So you see He is describing the beauty and harmony that will be heaven. And the animals are all there.
Love the points about religious books and science books and the 3000 gods
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Is this how you hope to win over non-believers, by making a statement that has zero to do with anything anyone here has said? "Humanity all hatched out from under a rock" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or anything else anyone has said here. And I don't remember anyone here "coming up" with any of their own absurd theories about how humans came to be. I've only seen two theories: the natural process known as evolution, or the invented theory that a god whose existence is nowhere near proven created humans out of dust (or was it clay?) and we all started from two fully formed, fully human adults. Think about it RYME. Which makes sense?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Why don't you just ask us to rave about how smart you are? The rest of us will just carry on with our lives understanding exactly what he fucking meant.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
And since I do believe what I've highlighted here, what does that make me?
Around 15 I became lazy going to church and lost interest...my friends changed etc...but I think I still believed.
Then life happened and I lost my husband. Everything changed then...also my view on religion changed. Not only because of that, I just can't believe in a "life after death" anymore. I tried, I really did...I even raised my son a little bit in that way. I just thought I should give him a chance to make his own experiences and therefor getting a chance to chose by himself what to believe.
It didn't help me to be honest. I just don't believe in something like a heaven anymore, what then makes me being a non-believer...lol...And well, I'm actually feeling ok with it.
There is energy I believe in, a kind of spirit and that every kind of life just goes back into another kind of energy.
I really second Gervais explanation from Colberts Late Show.
But I also believe that a lot of human beings just *need* something to believe and to trust in!
That's probably why all these religions are existing. And bc it's just natural for human beings to try to understand everything, we are finding ways to explain ourselves things like life after death etc. For the really scary parts like that our lifes will just end, we are going to tell ourselves to believe in god and a life in peace without pain and struggles with him and our beloved once... Hey...if it helps...great! Nothing wrong with it.
People, especially when they are having hard times (from wars, poverty, etc) or even just bc they are like it, need something to hold on, to have faith in to go on. So I believe that's good, as long as it's positiv, like there is a community you can trust in and find hope or help. It doesn't matter how it's called. That's how it should be.
It's a different story what the institution and so called "church" made out of it over all these years. That's men made.
This is the "Concept of god" which is made to be abused by humans who try to extract advantages from it. People who make others fight in religious wars for the wrong reasons. That's how humans are too. Selfish, radical, cruel...
But the basic thoughts about community, charity and offered help in this "Concept of god" could be positive and much needed for everybody.
So that's what the Concept of god means to me: I try to believe in the good inside of people, community and charity, truth and the willing to be a good loyal person. I don't need a church or a figure like god but good people to believe in. It's the We what is counting...that's god for me...the whole thing...
If you need to go to a place to share your believes, great, just do it, and make something good with it.
If you don't believe in god, that's good too...
As long as we give people space for themselves and their believes everybody should be fine with it. Just respect each other! Show more love and empathy! Try to forgive...
Oh well I know...it's too often just wishful thinking... If more people would act a little bit more like that we would live in a much better world...
I still hope though...for a better world...Maybe I'm a dreamer...
It's self-contradictory in it's most basic tenets.
God can't claim perfection and infallibility and then say, "oops, I need a do-over. Noah, build a boat."
God can't be vain and jealous and vengeful and perfect all at the same time.
God can't claim to be the embodiment of love and banish people to eternal suffering.
God can't be omnipotent (or even make a shred of sense) and still need His Son (which is really him) to become human and die (but only for a few days) so that He can forgive other people's sins.
And so on and so forth.
It's not even a well-constructed myth.
(Jeff Tweedy, Sydney 2007)
“Put yer good money on the sunrise”
(Tim Rogers)
This is the kind of thinking, attitude and compassion that is needed, always.
A believer in make believe.
Exactly.
bootlegger, just to make it clear, here's the definition:
"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world."
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"