The Concept of God

brianlux

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

I've found most answers to questions regarding God in this sacred music:

IMO, the most underrated album of all time, and the single greatest concept album ever.
I love the artwork and inserts too, the thing with the reversal of God made man in his image is badass and enraptured my 14 year old mind when I put this on my turntable and pulled out the worn contents.

Yes, one of my all-time favorites!  Whenever I think of this album, right off I hear John Evans pounding on the piano and Ian yelling, "Oh Father high in heaven/ smile down upon your son/ who's busy with his money games/ his women and his gun/  Ahh! Jesus, save me!"

rgambs

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

brianlux said:

I've found most answers to questions regarding God in this sacred music:

IMO, the most underrated album of all time, and the single greatest concept album ever.
I love the artwork and inserts too, the thing with the reversal of God made man in his image is badass and enraptured my 14 year old mind when I put this on my turntable and pulled out the worn contents.

Yes, one of my all-time favorites!  Whenever I think of this album, right off I hear John Evans pounding on the piano and Ian yelling, "Oh Father high in heaven/ smile down upon your son/ who's busy with his money games/ his women and his gun/  Ahh! Jesus, save me!"

For me it's 
"If Jesus saves
Well then He better save Himself
From the gory glory seekers
Who use His name in death!"

Damn, good shit.

rgambs

Actually though, when I think if this album, the first thing I hear is those muted strokes,
"in the shuffling madness
of a locomotive breath
runs the all-time loser
headlong to his death"

The lines from Hymn 43 are hot on the heels though, what a kick-ass album.  Super cohesive.
I can't imagine being a teen/early 20s listening to that when it came out, I might not have survived the decade that followed lol

dignin

Smellyman said:

Off topic, but on topic.  American Gods is the best show I've seen in the last couple of years.  Deals with many Gods.

Maybe I'll head to AET

I never heard of it so I went and checked it out on IMDB. If Al Swearengen is in it....I'm going to watch it for sure. 

hedonist

Ian McShane is among my favorites.  The man kicks all kinds of ass.

Nami, thank you.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

Lighten up HFD.

But seriously though, you still haven't answered my question. If god has no consciousness and/or no purpose and/or no reason for being ... then wtf do you think god could be otherwise? Wouldn't that just make god nothing? Without the kind of quality, then god is just nothing. I just don't understand how anyone could think that god could be nothing and still consider it god.

I didn't see a question, just a statement. But I honestly don't know. I'm not claiming to have the answers. quite the opposite, in fact. 

is gravity nothing?

Gravity is the word humans gave to an observable effect on matter.

oy. 

Huh? These "oys" of yours are uncharacteristic. They don't progress a discussion.

HughFreakingDillon

sometimes I just give up, as I can't articulate my point well enough to get it across. no one's fault but mine. no disrespect intended. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

sometimes I just give up, as I can't articulate my point well enough to get it across. no one's fault but mine. no disrespect intended. 

Oh... okay.... the "oy" comes off as "what you just said is idiotic".

FoxyRedLa

HughFreakingDillon said:

FoxyRedLa said:

Assuming you have children - you teach and expect to your liking..?

of course, but i obviously have compassion and understanding for their faults. if all of a sudden they stop 'honouring me', i won't damn them to hell. i will say live and let live. 

Can you absolutely without a doubt always forgive your kids? Always?

I don't know if I responded to this. But find I don't have much to say with trying to leave religion out.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

FoxyRedLa

oftenreading said:

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

Oh, hedo - an enormous hug to you that I wish I could give you in person. Some day. I'm also glad got that out, but so sad to hear what you had to get out. You are one amazing woman! 

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

Was trying to second often! 

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

FoxyRedLa said:

Assuming you have children - you teach and expect to your liking..?

of course, but i obviously have compassion and understanding for their faults. if all of a sudden they stop 'honouring me', i won't damn them to hell. i will say live and let live. 

Can you absolutely without a doubt always forgive your kids? Always?

I don't know if I responded to this. But find I don't have much to say with trying to leave religion out.

well, there's no way to really know. if one killed the other, or killed my wife, etc, etc, it would be impossible for me to know how I'd react in those situations. I'd like to think that I'd always love them, regardless if I was able to forgive or not. However, I do know I'd never want to put one of them to death for anything they did. That, I believe, I can know for a fact. 

FoxyRedLa

Ok I believe you too.

Sin does = death. Repent does = forgiveness. 

I do hear you. But even here in the physical world when we follow our morals or general rules or whatever that most of society follows to have a happy life we apologize when we screw up. Golden rule was mentioned. 

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

Ok I believe you too.

Sin does = death. Repent does = forgiveness. 

I do hear you. But even here in the physical world when we follow our morals or general rules or whatever that most of society follows to have a happy life we apologize when we screw up. Golden rule was mentioned. 

yes, but it is the punishment that is what is out of whack with the crime in the biblical context. 

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 13:50 make it clear as day that Hell is a place of fiery torment with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

I didn't mean to try to stifle the conversation. I just hate it when it turns into a religion bashing session, that's all. 

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 13:50 make it clear as day that Hell is a place of fiery torment with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Oh yes I don't argue with that I guess I just meant repent. In some cases a lot ha! But I hear you about sometimes the crime doesn't fit the punishment, but I wouldn't compare murder to masterbation or rape to skipping church. I don't believe all sins = Hell. We are sinners. There would be no Heaven without repent.

FoxyRedLa

HughFreakingDillon said:

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

I didn't mean to try to stifle the conversation. I just hate it when it turns into a religion bashing session, that's all. 

Gotcha haha no one's used that one in here yet?

PJfanwillneverleave1

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 13:50 make it clear as day that Hell is a place of fiery torment with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Oh yes I don't argue with that I guess I just meant repent. In some cases a lot ha! But I hear you about sometimes the crime doesn't fit the punishment, but I wouldn't compare murder to masterbation or rape to skipping church. I don't believe all sins = Hell. We are sinners. There would be no Heaven without repent.

Can you clarify who the we is please?

brianlux

I guess all we can say is, thank God for music and TV.  And

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

I think I stopped responding here based on the request to keep religion out, but am left wondering what you think Hell is - and again I do believe we all have a chance to repent. 

Revelation 21:8 and Matthew 13:50 make it clear as day that Hell is a place of fiery torment with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Welcome to my world, summers in El Dorado County, CA