The Concept of God

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

He will not stop loving you, perusing you.

Will he love me when the flames char my skin and I am gnashing my teeth and wailing?  What sort of love is that?  Surely not unconditional love.
That's the part that I am unable to move past.

HughFreakingDillon

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

again, folks, this is not a religion thread. try to separate the two. 

I understand why you want to separate the two, but it isn't an easy task.
Religion is the language used to describe a God, so I'm not sure how to extract one from the other.
Specific Gods can be avoided, but that leaves little to discuss, doesn't it?

because speaking about religion inevitably leads to people bashing religion, when that wasn't the focus. the focus is "what do you think god is, if god exists". for many, god can exist without the bible/religion. 

FoxyRedLa

Well, in your case you're denying the Holy Ghost so why are you questioning if He'd care?

I obviously don't know. Judgment is His thing. But I do believe we all get a chance to repent.

Almost all transgressions called sins are forgivable. 

The guilt part to scare is where a lot of these extremes come from. Like someone mentioned before - the 5 year old story. That's kinda like I'll scare you and you can forever have this guilty thought in your head to force you to be good. That lingering thought.

I for a long time believed that if I in fact stepped on a crack I would brake my mother's back!

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

Well, in your case you're denying the Holy Ghost so why are you questioning if He'd care?

I obviously don't know. Judgment is His thing. But I do believe we all get a chance to repent.

Almost all transgressions called sins are forgivable. 

The guilt part to scare is where a lot of these extremes come from. Like someone mentioned before - the 5 year old story. That's kinda like I'll scare you and you can forever have this guilty thought in your head to force you to be good. That lingering thought.

I for a long time believed that if I in fact stepped on a crack I would brake my mother's back!

that is what some people find disarming about christian god. he supposedly loves everyone unconditionally, but if you don't love him back to his liking, he sends you to hell for eternity. 

FoxyRedLa

That's not true. To His liking is not true. He does not expect us to be perfect. We apologize to Him just like we would to anyone here in the physical world.

Smellyman

FoxyRedLa said:

That's not true. To His liking is not true. He does not expect us to be perfect. We apologize to Him just like we would to anyone here in the physical world.

but it is still to his liking

FoxyRedLa

Assuming you have children - you teach and expect to your liking..?

Smellyman

I don't have children, but wouldn't send them to hell for coveting their neighbors wife.

HughFreakingDillon

FoxyRedLa said:

Assuming you have children - you teach and expect to your liking..?

of course, but i obviously have compassion and understanding for their faults. if all of a sudden they stop 'honouring me', i won't damn them to hell. i will say live and let live. 

hedonist

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

hedonist

(Whew - guess I really needed to get that out.  Thanks for the release.)

mcgruff10

hedonist said:

(Whew - guess I really needed to get that out.  Thanks for the release.)

Totally agree with your analyzation. Loneliness does not create a pedophile. 

HughFreakingDillon

no, loneliness does not create a pedophile. those types of roles, where they are constantly around children and are trusted and can prey on those they feel they can manipulate is what attracts pedos to those types of roles/professions. 

mcgruff10

HughFreakingDillon said:

no, loneliness does not create a pedophile. those types of roles, where they are constantly around children and are trusted and can prey on those they feel they can manipulate is what attracts pedos to those types of roles/professions. 

I m sure that fits one segment but unfortunately pedophiles are everywhere. There is no rhyme or reason.  Watch your kids closely.  

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no, loneliness does not create a pedophile. those types of roles, where they are constantly around children and are trusted and can prey on those they feel they can manipulate is what attracts pedos to those types of roles/professions. 

I m sure that fits one segment but unfortunately pedophiles are everywhere. There is no rhyme or reason.  Watch your kids closely.  

i'm not in fear of that. i will educate my kids on what's appropriate and not.  

oftenreading

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

Oh, hedo - an enormous hug to you that I wish I could give you in person. Some day. I'm also glad got that out, but so sad to hear what you had to get out. You are one amazing woman! 

hedonist

oftenreading said:

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

Oh, hedo - an enormous hug to you that I wish I could give you in person. Some day. I'm also glad got that out, but so sad to hear what you had to get out. You are one amazing woman! 

Thank you, my loved friend.  I shall hug you again!

Apologies for the rant and again, thanks for indulging my vitriol here.  Sometimes I need to spew it out, get rid of the toxins, in order to find peace.

All of this does make me further question life, how or if god plays a part.  Or just spirituality, connection to nature and to each other.  Is it happenstance or intended?

No answers here, that's for sure.

rgambs

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

rgambs said:

erocshifty said:

I read something about the concept of there being a "Great Architect" that I somewhat agree with. I've found that a lot of my belief system borrows from several different places. The thing that puzzles me is how in a lot of these belief systems: there's no Female deity. For me a lot of the time, "God" is tied in with Nature. Sun, Moon, Earth, etc..

The earliest religions usually had balance between male and female deities, and that survived in many cultures until the Judeo-Christian beliefs spread and influenced so much of the world.

One of many issues I have with the Catholic Church. Women should definitely be priests and priests should be able to have kids and marry. It cracks me up when priests give martial advice lol. 

I wonder if that would have an effect on the problem of molestation?

I honestly think sexual abuse cases would dramatically drop. 

I do too, but who knows, it has to be more complicated than just a lack a physical affection.
Plenty of people get very lonely without seeking that sort of thing.
It seems to me there must be something about priesthood that attracts men susceptible to pedophilic tendancies, it's easier to imagine that than to imagine that it creates those tendancies.

I imagine there are further responses to address this, but gambs, please PLEASE know that loneliness does not create a child molester.

In the same breath, having been married, having children, having sex does not prevent the creation of a child molester.

Pedophiles cross all walks of life, of gender, of family, of profession, of so many reasons.

Trust that it is not so simple and never will be.

For more than 40 years have I given a large fuck you to mine.  He never had the right to rectify upon me whatever "lack of physical affection" he experienced.  No excuse, and to suggest that is, actually, insulting to the child I was while providing him with whatever he lacked.  Fuck him and all the grown men (and women) who were and are like him.  Get yourself some fucking help.  Put yourself through hell instead of others.  Put yourself to get well, to get better.  To keep your hands and other body parts off of innocents.

Maybe one day I'll give enough of a shit to try to understand why he did what he did (pretty sure I'm one of many, as those actions are never limited to one - these sick fucks get off on quantity, not just perceived quality).  Until that fantastical one day comes, I'll continue to curse his actions and their repercussions.

I totally agree, but would add that for someone who has that perversion, isolating themselves from acceptable forms of human contact is only going to worsen their sick desires, making them more likely to act.  The position of trust and authority contributes
What I am saying is not that the position creates pedophilic desires, but it would certainly unearth and bring to the forefront any sort of perversion.  Many a priest has taken advantage of grown women who were having spousal issues as well.  It's just a fucked up dynamic.

I'm glad that you found a release in that post, hugs hugs hugs!
My mother was molested by her father, she doesn't talk about it and refuses to acknowledge that it had an effect on her life at all.  I learned about it in passing when I was 24 and just last year she clarified (under questioning) that the offhand comment was real, and a very brief summary of the general nature of the molestation.  I guess that's her way of saying "hey you fuckers, I still stand".  Sadly, it's one of these traumatic of the traumatic events she's been through.

I'm not sure if she believes in God.  She probably says she does, but I have a feeling if she met Him there would be an epic scolding and possibly a poke in the Eye.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

I've enjoyed your discussion hugh? and allison, and I'm going to have to take the lady's side here. 
God is a fairly well defined concept that can't just be ascribed to anything.

If you think that God is the universe or nature or love, or that God is the fact that there is a vague "higher power", you are just an atheist who is afraid to admit what you are lol

can someone point me in the direction of something that says god has to be this specific set of details that the two of you have mapped out?

Well for one, it is made clear in every dictionary definition. But it is also defined as such by every single religion that ever existed, by every work of literature I've ever seen about god or against god (excluding metaphors), by every major philosophical argument for and against the existence of god that I've ever come across, by every major theologian and atheist on the "circuit", by everything that is known about the oldest ancient history of the concept of god .... Can you explain why you think god does not necessarily have to possess this basic kind of quality and still be god? Because I sincerely don't understand how you can take away that factor of the concept - what I see as literally the only defining factor of the concept - and still think it can be called god.

wow, that's pretty absolute. every single definition, every single work of literature, every major argument for or against god? 

guess there's no basis for this thread then.

That is just because there is one specific thing that makes god god. That happens to be the one thing that you don't want to acknowledge. I don't know what else to say. It's kind of the equivalent of you saying that flight doesn't necessarily entail leaving the ground. There is still a ton to talk about when it comes to this topic, but maybe not so much if literally the only defining factor of god is excluded from the concept...

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.