The Concept of God

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

I've enjoyed your discussion hugh? and allison, and I'm going to have to take the lady's side here. 
God is a fairly well defined concept that can't just be ascribed to anything.

If you think that God is the universe or nature or love, or that God is the fact that there is a vague "higher power", you are just an atheist who is afraid to admit what you are lol

can someone point me in the direction of something that says god has to be this specific set of details that the two of you have mapped out?

Well for one, it is made clear in every dictionary definition. But it is also defined as such by every single religion that ever existed, by every work of literature I've ever seen about god or against god (excluding metaphors), by every major philosophical argument for and against the existence of god that I've ever come across, by every major theologian and atheist on the "circuit", by everything that is known about the oldest ancient history of the concept of god .... Can you explain why you think god does not necessarily have to possess this basic kind of quality and still be god? Because I sincerely don't understand how you can take away that factor of the concept - what I see as literally the only defining factor of the concept - and still think it can be called god.

wow, that's pretty absolute. every single definition, every single work of literature, every major argument for or against god? 

guess there's no basis for this thread then.

That is just because there is one specific thing that makes god god. That happens to be the one thing that you don't want to acknowledge. I don't know what else to say. It's kind of the equivalent of you saying that flight doesn't necessarily entail leaving the ground. There is still a ton to talk about when it comes to this topic, but maybe not so much if literally the only defining factor of god is excluded from the concept...

flight is a tangible thing. not comparable. if god was something that we knew what it was, I'd agree with you. but I can't for the life of me understand why the concept of god has to be limited to human imagination. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

Lighten up HFD.

But seriously though, you still haven't answered my question. If god has no consciousness and/or no purpose and/or no reason for being ... then wtf do you think god could be otherwise? Wouldn't that just make god nothing? Without the kind of quality, then god is just nothing. I just don't understand how anyone could think that god could be nothing and still consider it god.

And btw, I said it tongue in cheek, but I still meant it: obviously I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that god is a human construct, so I'm not totally sure why you expect me to be open to your idea that god exists without any kind of human definition applied to it. To me, it's all just an absurdity. Furthermore, you are no less human that anyone else - whatever definition you try to apply to god is just as human as any other definition. The concept of god is indeed a human concept. You really can't take that away. Whatever you're thinking of kind of has to be something else. Not god. People already defined what god is.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

Lighten up HFD.

But seriously though, you still haven't answered my question. If god has no consciousness and/or no purpose and/or no reason for being ... then wtf do you think god could be otherwise? Wouldn't that just make god nothing? Without the kind of quality, then god is just nothing. I just don't understand how anyone could think that god could be nothing and still consider it god.

I didn't see a question, just a statement. But I honestly don't know. I'm not claiming to have the answers. quite the opposite, in fact. 

is gravity nothing?

FoxyRedLa

hedonist

rgambs said:

I totally agree, but would add that for someone who has that perversion, isolating themselves from acceptable forms of human contact is only going to worsen their sick desires, making them more likely to act.  The position of trust and authority contributes
What I am saying is not that the position creates pedophilic desires, but it would certainly unearth and bring to the forefront any sort of perversion.  Many a priest has taken advantage of grown women who were having spousal issues as well.  It's just a fucked up dynamic.

I'm glad that you found a release in that post, hugs hugs hugs!
My mother was molested by her father, she doesn't talk about it and refuses to acknowledge that it had an effect on her life at all.  I learned about it in passing when I was 24 and just last year she clarified (under questioning) that the offhand comment was real, and a very brief summary of the general nature of the molestation.  I guess that's her way of saying "hey you fuckers, I still stand".  Sadly, it's one of these traumatic of the traumatic events she's been through.

I'm not sure if she believes in God.  She probably says she does, but I have a feeling if she met Him there would be an epic scolding and possibly a poke in the Eye.

gambs, I hope the quoting thing works (seriously fucked up lately).  Just wanted say thank you for getting it and offering another perspective for me.  And for sharing what your mother endured.  Must be difficult for you, as her son.  May she continue to stand!

I'm still, and likely will always, trying to get my head around how my dad continued to believe and love (his?) god, in light of all whom he lost, in light of the lives he himself took to ensure freedom of religion and of BEING for himself and others.  To be in full battle at 20, 21...in a dirty ditch, weapon in hand, scared and hungry as fuck.  No wonder "there are no atheists in foxholes" was a common sentiment in that time.

I may not fully get it, but I do respect how faith, belief, whatever one chooses to call it, blessed me with the best father and role-model - and living example of generosity, integrity - I could hope for.  

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

Lighten up HFD.

But seriously though, you still haven't answered my question. If god has no consciousness and/or no purpose and/or no reason for being ... then wtf do you think god could be otherwise? Wouldn't that just make god nothing? Without the kind of quality, then god is just nothing. I just don't understand how anyone could think that god could be nothing and still consider it god.

I didn't see a question, just a statement. But I honestly don't know. I'm not claiming to have the answers. quite the opposite, in fact. 

is gravity nothing?

Gravity is the word humans gave to an observable effect on matter.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Nevermind.
ugh

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

why does there have to be a purpose? how did we come to the conclusion that if there is a god, that it created everything for a reason? why? 

so if there is no god, as you have stated, then what is the purpose? wouldn't that mean then, to you, the lack of god means the lack of purpose then?

they way i see it, even if there is a god, i don't see a purpose. maybe that's where i'm coming from. i can't say for sure there isn't a god, but i find it even more difficult to imagine that there is a purpose to all of this. billions upon billions of people born and die, do nothing but destroy their home planet. i guess it's rooted in pessimism or cynicism. 

There doesn't have to be purpose. I said the word purpose once, among a list of various terms that may or may not be attributed to God (really more in an attempt to put into words what is a bit ineffable), and you focused in on this one word for some reason.
But I think there is one purpose to nature in general: life. At least, that's what scientific study seems to reflect.

I was responding to this, not "focusing" on one word:  Because a god, in any manifestation, cannot be a completely unconscious force without any purpose or reason.

But then now you just said there doesn't have to be a purpose. 

what other attributes are a requirement of something being classified as "god"?

I think I have been extremely clear about what the one defining factor of god must be - i.e. it can't be an unconscious force. What I meant by "purpose" is simply some kind of reason to exist in and of itself, not that god must have a specific purpose to apply to earth or the universe.

why can't it be? simply because that is the prevailing human definition? (I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand how anyone could think humans would know what a god should or should not be)

Well since humans invented the concept, it only makes sense, lol.

Oy. 

Lighten up HFD.

But seriously though, you still haven't answered my question. If god has no consciousness and/or no purpose and/or no reason for being ... then wtf do you think god could be otherwise? Wouldn't that just make god nothing? Without the kind of quality, then god is just nothing. I just don't understand how anyone could think that god could be nothing and still consider it god.

I didn't see a question, just a statement. But I honestly don't know. I'm not claiming to have the answers. quite the opposite, in fact. 

is gravity nothing?

Gravity is the word humans gave to an observable effect on matter.

oy. 

PJfanwillneverleave1

The pouncing drives me mad.

HughFreakingDillon

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

The pouncing drives me mad.

who pounced? i didn't see anyone quote what you said before you edited it. 

PJfanwillneverleave1

I'm gone.

Nami

rgambs said:

Nami said:

rgambs said:

Nami said:

ok how about a soul in general?   One that deciphers good from bad, whats wrong or right?

I asked my parents, no hits to the head when younger.... nothing from drugs/alcohol.... had the belief before and after.  ha

No, absolutely not.
Determining what is right and wrong is a cognitive function, it arises from the ability to analyze the world to a high degree.  A soul would need to be independent of the corporeal body to survive biological death, there is no evidence that such a force exists.  Human consciousness can be manipulated by physical stimuli, so where is the soul and what does it do if it has nothing to do with how you think, behave, and feel?
Does it make more sense that a cockroach doesn't know right from wrong because it has a small brain, or does it make more sense that God decided to make living creatures with souls and other living creatures without souls?

so no soul, but a consciousness sculpted by society and learned behavior.  

i believe every animal has a soul... a spirit inside that keeps all connected in this world.

Does yeast have a soul?  Do viruses and bacteria? 
They are living creatures that have a profound effect on their local piece of the universe.  If life is the condition for a soul, where does that begin and end?  Is the soul of a snail equal to the soul of Mother Theresa?
What about the forces themselves, they move and shape the world, should they not have souls as well? 

Having a dog and cat, yes there is learned behavior and routines...but on the other hand, there are moments when i look into their eyes and moments experienced that tell me otherwise.  going to a level of yeast/bacteria i dont see it as the same.  yes i undertand your view, but such organisms do not go outside the propose of their being. 

Hedo, sorry to read what happened.

brianlux

I've found most answers to questions regarding God in this sacred music:

rgambs

brianlux said:

I've found most answers to questions regarding God in this sacred music:

IMO, the most underrated album of all time, and the single greatest concept album ever.
I love the artwork and inserts too, the thing with the reversal of God made man in his image is badass and enraptured my 14 year old mind when I put this on my turntable and pulled out the worn contents.

Smellyman

Off topic, but on topic.  American Gods is the best show I've seen in the last couple of years.  Deals with many Gods.

Maybe I'll head to AET