Another Attack in France (Nice)
Comments
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And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.0
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No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
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No.jnimhaoileoin said:
No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
People quickly jump to that explanation because it is always the case.
Any muslim that commits murder hasn't done it for any other reason that I can think of. Can you?0 -
Are you fucking taking the piss? I don't know why I persist in responding to your trolling but come on!PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
No.jnimhaoileoin said:
No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
People quickly jump to that explanation because it is always the case.
Any muslim that commits murder hasn't done it for any other reason that I can think of. Can you?0 -
Maybe if a Muslim murdered a clerk at a gas station or a cheating spouse, but not 80+ people with a truck. Head...in...sand...jnimhaoileoin said:
No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
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Typically it takes 2-3 days for the head in the sand people to realize what was being told to them was correct. http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/france-truck-attacker-may-have-become-radicalized-officials-1.2990215jnimhaoileoin said:
Are you fucking taking the piss? I don't know why I persist in responding to your trolling but come on!PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
No.jnimhaoileoin said:
No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
People quickly jump to that explanation because it is always the case.
Any muslim that commits murder hasn't done it for any other reason that I can think of. Can you?
There is mounting evidence that Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, the Tunisian-born truck driver responsible for the deadly carnage in Nice last week, had recently absorbed extremist ideas and had become radicalized, French authorities said Sunday.
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Gee.jnimhaoileoin said:
No, actually I believe the fact that people are so quick to jump to the terrorist explanation is a very telling and sad reflection of how people have come to assume that any Muslim that commits murder must have done so in the name of Islamic jihadbootlegger10 said:And to the "wait and see" crowd as to whether this was a terrorist attack: get your heads out of the sand. Someone kills 80 plus people with a truck and shoots at police in France and we get the whole 'slow down, this could just be someone who is depressed' talk. It really is telling how much in denial some are.
You can keep holding your breath waiting for another motive if you wish, but for most of us... it's a pretty safe assumption these days.
It is sad that Muslim terrorists have become synonymous with mass murder."My brain's a good brain!"0 -
Well, he is the Marxist, Leninist, communist, Muslim anti-Christ. Anti before there was an anti.Bentleyspop said:
Where have you been?josevolution said:
What does Obama have to do with This attack ?EdsonNascimento said:
Agree. I was sharing your view. It would be nice if our President took the same approach of not jumping to convenient conclusions with police shootings.oftenreading said:
Sure, you could draw lots of links. Which isn't to say that I'm denying there could be a formal link to a terrorist group; just that I'd prefer not to jump to conclusions and give them too much power.EdsonNascimento said:
Actually, you could probably blame Stephen King as much as anyone. I'm not but just sayin. Not that the idea is that original, but he is the most popular writer of our time and just had a best selling trilogy that starts out with this basic premise.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
Don't you know that President Obama is to blame for everything bad that has ever happened. Back to and including the crufiixtion.
D'uh!
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You forgot socialistHalifax2TheMax said:
Well, he is the Marxist, Leninist, communist, Muslim anti-Christ. Anti before there was an anti.Bentleyspop said:
Where have you been?josevolution said:
What does Obama have to do with This attack ?EdsonNascimento said:
Agree. I was sharing your view. It would be nice if our President took the same approach of not jumping to convenient conclusions with police shootings.oftenreading said:
Sure, you could draw lots of links. Which isn't to say that I'm denying there could be a formal link to a terrorist group; just that I'd prefer not to jump to conclusions and give them too much power.EdsonNascimento said:
Actually, you could probably blame Stephen King as much as anyone. I'm not but just sayin. Not that the idea is that original, but he is the most popular writer of our time and just had a best selling trilogy that starts out with this basic premise.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
Don't you know that President Obama is to blame for everything bad that has ever happened. Back to and including the crufiixtion.
D'uh!0 -
Ok so tell us what do you propose we do ? I agree with the premise we should stop putting our noses in other country's problems including Israel the world is in the shape that it is because of one Giant factor that should never be forgotten the mighty USA is responsible for the destabilization of that region .....bootlegger10 said:
So every time a dictator or occupying force takes over a country the rest of the world is to take all of the migrants from those countries so that we can have all countries destabilized? If you don't want the USA to be the world's police then don't make us the world's largest free hotel.josevolution said:
Ok then you at ready man up join the army marines what have you , or if you have any kids of fighting age have them join and send them over there to fight for your freedom that is being threatened !!bootlegger10 said:
No, it is worse when terrorists in Iraq and Syria don't even need to coordinate the attacks that happen in France and the USA. They are winning.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
This is why we need to fight terrorism in the middle east and not bring the fight to the West through migration. Sure 95% won't become terrorists, but that 5% will create more chaos than we will know how to deal with. It happened in France. It happened. It is right in front of our faces yet some of you still deny it.
Are you blind to what is happening in Europe? How is the assimilation going? How is the melting pot going?jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
The USA's involvement in the past is what it is. I'm not denying it and we can't change the past.josevolution said:
Ok so tell us what do you propose we do ? I agree with the premise we should stop putting our noses in other country's problems including Israel the world is in the shape that it is because of one Giant factor that should never be forgotten the mighty USA is responsible for the destabilization of that region .....bootlegger10 said:
So every time a dictator or occupying force takes over a country the rest of the world is to take all of the migrants from those countries so that we can have all countries destabilized? If you don't want the USA to be the world's police then don't make us the world's largest free hotel.josevolution said:
Ok then you at ready man up join the army marines what have you , or if you have any kids of fighting age have them join and send them over there to fight for your freedom that is being threatened !!bootlegger10 said:
No, it is worse when terrorists in Iraq and Syria don't even need to coordinate the attacks that happen in France and the USA. They are winning.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
This is why we need to fight terrorism in the middle east and not bring the fight to the West through migration. Sure 95% won't become terrorists, but that 5% will create more chaos than we will know how to deal with. It happened in France. It happened. It is right in front of our faces yet some of you still deny it.
Are you blind to what is happening in Europe? How is the assimilation going? How is the melting pot going?
Obviously this is a message board and I am not a foreign policy expert just like all of us here. I don't trust that these countries can free themselves on their own from evil dictators or a chaotic power structure. If anything Iraq was a much more stable government comparatively and once the US left ISIS took over quickly, so I don't have much faith in Libya and Syria. I think we probably left 50-75 years too early in Baghdad (trust me, I wish that wasn't the case). I've said in other threads but these countries need a generation or two of people who go to school for 10-15 years, have access to the internet, have equal treatment between men and women, have a sustained period of relative peace, etc... Education is the only way that they can stop the cycle they are in over there and to get that education they need a government that doesn't fear it. To get that education the West may need to spend 50 years trying to provide as peaceful an environment as possible so that hopefully after 50 years there is a local government in place full of educated people who see that there is no place for religious factions and terrorism.
Obviously this idea has many issues. #1 Having enough people to fight in multiple countries. I think we've seen the armies/dictators are relatively easy to get rid of but the aftermath is the deadly part. #2 The west will be seen as occupiers. Hopefully though after 50 years if the West in sincere in helping that perception will go away. #3 buy in from the world. This will need buy-in from Russia, China, IRan, Saudi Arabia (obviously difficult). Many, many, many other issues exist. Obviously this is no guarantee of success.
My point is this:
If we can't trust Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey to help stabilize Syria, Libya, and Iraq if the West leaves, then I don't think these countries can stabilize themselves (at least to a place where the treatment of the average citizen isn't despicable). The answer isn't bring all of these refugees into Europe where the infrastructure is not there, but to help them live in the country they want to live in (where they were born). So, perhaps the answer I am suggesting is we send in troops (try to build the biggest damn coalition ever) and take out Assad and setup safe cities for 50-75 years to allow some semblance of democracy or peaceful government to take form so that we are confident when we leave in 75 years that things won't devolve.
Sorry, long incoherent post but don't have a ton of time. But my question back to you is how do you think Syria and Libya can become a stable country again? Maybe I am making too much of the dictators and terrorists there, but if the West leaves and all the refugees leave too, then how does Syria fix itself? How is the cycle of violence stopped? Do we just wait and hope and just let everyone immigrate to Europe or North America when things get bad?
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Hey I hear you on everything but what I know is that more aggression by the USA will only lead to more of what we have now we can't change those country's to be models of our ways of life but all im hearing over at GOP convention is the war drums beating !bootlegger10 said:
The USA's involvement in the past is what it is. I'm not denying it and we can't change the past.josevolution said:
Ok so tell us what do you propose we do ? I agree with the premise we should stop putting our noses in other country's problems including Israel the world is in the shape that it is because of one Giant factor that should never be forgotten the mighty USA is responsible for the destabilization of that region .....bootlegger10 said:
So every time a dictator or occupying force takes over a country the rest of the world is to take all of the migrants from those countries so that we can have all countries destabilized? If you don't want the USA to be the world's police then don't make us the world's largest free hotel.josevolution said:
Ok then you at ready man up join the army marines what have you , or if you have any kids of fighting age have them join and send them over there to fight for your freedom that is being threatened !!bootlegger10 said:
No, it is worse when terrorists in Iraq and Syria don't even need to coordinate the attacks that happen in France and the USA. They are winning.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
This is why we need to fight terrorism in the middle east and not bring the fight to the West through migration. Sure 95% won't become terrorists, but that 5% will create more chaos than we will know how to deal with. It happened in France. It happened. It is right in front of our faces yet some of you still deny it.
Are you blind to what is happening in Europe? How is the assimilation going? How is the melting pot going?
Obviously this is a message board and I am not a foreign policy expert just like all of us here. I don't trust that these countries can free themselves on their own from evil dictators or a chaotic power structure. If anything Iraq was a much more stable government comparatively and once the US left ISIS took over quickly, so I don't have much faith in Libya and Syria. I think we probably left 50-75 years too early in Baghdad (trust me, I wish that wasn't the case). I've said in other threads but these countries need a generation or two of people who go to school for 10-15 years, have access to the internet, have equal treatment between men and women, have a sustained period of relative peace, etc... Education is the only way that they can stop the cycle they are in over there and to get that education they need a government that doesn't fear it. To get that education the West may need to spend 50 years trying to provide as peaceful an environment as possible so that hopefully after 50 years there is a local government in place full of educated people who see that there is no place for religious factions and terrorism.
Obviously this idea has many issues. #1 Having enough people to fight in multiple countries. I think we've seen the armies/dictators are relatively easy to get rid of but the aftermath is the deadly part. #2 The west will be seen as occupiers. Hopefully though after 50 years if the West in sincere in helping that perception will go away. #3 buy in from the world. This will need buy-in from Russia, China, IRan, Saudi Arabia (obviously difficult). Many, many, many other issues exist. Obviously this is no guarantee of success.
My point is this:
If we can't trust Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey to help stabilize Syria, Libya, and Iraq if the West leaves, then I don't think these countries can stabilize themselves (at least to a place where the treatment of the average citizen isn't despicable). The answer isn't bring all of these refugees into Europe where the infrastructure is not there, but to help them live in the country they want to live in (where they were born). So, perhaps the answer I am suggesting is we send in troops (try to build the biggest damn coalition ever) and take out Assad and setup safe cities for 50-75 years to allow some semblance of democracy or peaceful government to take form so that we are confident when we leave in 75 years that things won't devolve.
Sorry, long incoherent post but don't have a ton of time. But my question back to you is how do you think Syria and Libya can become a stable country again? Maybe I am making too much of the dictators and terrorists there, but if the West leaves and all the refugees leave too, then how does Syria fix itself? How is the cycle of violence stopped? Do we just wait and hope and just let everyone immigrate to Europe or North America when things get bad?jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
bootlegger10 said:
Would you be comfortable with a $3.00 per gallon war tax and a draft of both sexes to fund and staff such a commitment? But I'd start with getting the republicans to confirm Obama's number two at treasury, you know, the guy who goes after terrorist funding sources and follows the money. I'd also start with telling the Saudis to shut it down because their chickens are coming home to roost. The US getting into the middle of the Shia/Sunni divide ain't going to help matters. Where's the Iran thread and I wonder if Bibi has a prime time speaking slot at the GOP convention?josevolution said:
The USA's involvement in the past is what it is. I'm not denying it and we can't change the past.bootlegger10 said:
Ok so tell us what do you propose we do ? I agree with the premise we should stop putting our noses in other country's problems including Israel the world is in the shape that it is because of one Giant factor that should never be forgotten the mighty USA is responsible for the destabilization of that region .....josevolution said:
Ok then you at ready man up join the army marines what have you , or if you have any kids of fighting age have them join and send them over there to fight for your freedom that is being threatened !!bootlegger10 said:
No, it is worse when terrorists in Iraq and Syria don't even need to coordinate the attacks that happen in France and the USA. They are winning.oftenreading said:
People can make links and draw conclusions all they like but that doesn't necessarily make them valid. The facts we have suggest that the attacker was a man with a history of violence, both within the family and with strangers. He has a conviction for a violent offence. There is no evidence that he was affiliated with or directed by any radical groups, and none have claimed responsibility (I hate to call it "credit") for the attack. Driving a truck into a crowd of people is not a sophisticated attack that requires coordination or planning. Ar this point he appears to be a violent guy who seized on an opportunity to commit violence on a massive scale, but that doesn't make this an ISIS-led terrorist attack. To assume it does gives them too much credit and feeds the terror machine, the fears of world-wide annihilation. They would be very pleased by that.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Well here are two facts.jnimhaoileoin said:
Make up my mind about what? What are you on about? Like any rational person, I don't jump to quick judgements until I have all the factsPJfanwillneverleave1 said:
You will never get this and will always be asking that question unless you make up your mind.jnimhaoileoin said:
Unless the PM has info he's not sharing with us, then to me it seemed like a premature and ill-advised link to make. If it turns out to be true, then fine but I want actual facts and evidencePJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The "events" in Nice as you call them have everything to do with radical islam. Not Obama.jnimhaoileoin said:
Well I don't know why it's turned into a discussion on Obama! FFS right now the information indicates that the perpetrator in Nice was mentally ill and on medication. Just because he was a Muslim everyone has decided this attack should become part of the big conversation on what to do about radical Islam. How about you have that discussion on a thread where it is more clearly relevant? This thread was created to discuss events in Nice, no?PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
What did you want for integrity of this thread?jnimhaoileoin said:I guess we gave up on thread integrity a long time ago
Root causes?
Perhaps a conversation why this happened?
What?
http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/latest-from-nice-pm-calls-driver-terrorist-linked-to-radical-islam-1.2988025
The "events" in Nice are linked to radical Islam.
and
you don't see this
This is why we need to fight terrorism in the middle east and not bring the fight to the West through migration. Sure 95% won't become terrorists, but that 5% will create more chaos than we will know how to deal with. It happened in France. It happened. It is right in front of our faces yet some of you still deny it.
Obviously this is a message board and I am not a foreign policy expert just like all of us here. I don't trust that these countries can free themselves on their own from evil dictators or a chaotic power structure. If anything Iraq was a much more stable government comparatively and once the US left ISIS took over quickly, so I don't have much faith in Libya and Syria. I think we probably left 50-75 years too early in Baghdad (trust me, I wish that wasn't the case). I've said in other threads but these countries need a generation or two of people who go to school for 10-15 years, have access to the internet, have equal treatment between men and women, have a sustained period of relative peace, etc... Education is the only way that they can stop the cycle they are in over there and to get that education they need a government that doesn't fear it. To get that education the West may need to spend 50 years trying to provide as peaceful an environment as possible so that hopefully after 50 years there is a local government in place full of educated people who see that there is no place for religious factions and terrorism.
Obviously this idea has many issues. #1 Having enough people to fight in multiple countries. I think we've seen the armies/dictators are relatively easy to get rid of but the aftermath is the deadly part. #2 The west will be seen as occupiers. Hopefully though after 50 years if the West in sincere in helping that perception will go away. #3 buy in from the world. This will need buy-in from Russia, China, IRan, Saudi Arabia (obviously difficult). Many, many, many other issues exist. Obviously this is no guarantee of success.
My point is this:
If we can't trust Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey to help stabilize Syria, Libya, and Iraq if the West leaves, then I don't think these countries can stabilize themselves (at least to a place where the treatment of the average citizen isn't despicable). The answer isn't bring all of these refugees into Europe where the infrastructure is not there, but to help them live in the country they want to live in (where they were born). So, perhaps the answer I am suggesting is we send in troops (try to build the biggest damn coalition ever) and take out Assad and setup safe cities for 50-75 years to allow some semblance of democracy or peaceful government to take form so that we are confident when we leave in 75 years that things won't devolve.
Sorry, long incoherent post but don't have a ton of time. But my question back to you is how do you think Syria and Libya can become a stable country again? Maybe I am making too much of the dictators and terrorists there, but if the West leaves and all the refugees leave too, then how does Syria fix itself? How is the cycle of violence stopped? Do we just wait and hope and just let everyone immigrate to Europe or North America when things get bad?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Brilliantati©0 -
Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.0
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I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
Have you been paying attention to Halifax?PJ_Soul said:
I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
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What, the school thing? I don't actually think that means anything in the context of this conversation. That is just a matter of administration, and it isn't something that will have a long term impact - it's a temporary issue of making room for refugee children in schools, which to me is noble. Those children may very well have died in refugee camps if they hadn't been brought to Canada. We're talking about terrorism here (btw, there are also a lot of really nice stories about refugees in Halifax - how they have helped people, etc).BS44325 said:
Have you been paying attention to Halifax?PJ_Soul said:
I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
Ok. Just a temporary issue. A problem of administration. That's what they said about certain neighbourhoods in Belgium and France.PJ_Soul said:
What, the school thing? I don't actually think that means anything in the context of this conversation. That is just a matter of administration, and it isn't something that will have a long term impact - it's a temporary issue of making room for refugee children in schools, which to me is noble. Those children may very well have died in refugee camps if they hadn't been brought to Canada. We're talking about terrorism here (btw, there are also a lot of really nice stories about refugees in Halifax - how they have helped people, etc).BS44325 said:
Have you been paying attention to Halifax?PJ_Soul said:
I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
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So you think the problems in Europe right now wouldn't exist if there was proper screening? Everyone focuses on the migrants but what about the second generation? That generation seems to be the ones committee terror attacks in the USA and Europe.PJ_Soul said:
I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
0 -
There are plenty of problems within some Muslim communities, and disenfranchised second generation Muslims turning to extremism is one of those problems. Only an idiot would try and deny that. But I argue that not helping refugees is not the solution, and neither is encouraging widespread intolerance towards Muslims in general. I definitely do not think that helping these refugees is contributing to terrorism.bootlegger10 said:
So you think the problems in Europe right now wouldn't exist if there was proper screening? Everyone focuses on the migrants but what about the second generation? That generation seems to be the ones committee terror attacks in the USA and Europe.PJ_Soul said:
I really haven't seen any news whatsoever about how taking in legitimate Syrian refugees after a rigorous screening process has harmed anyone or any country.bootlegger10 said:Well, the answer isn't for the West to take all of the refugees either. Ask Europe how that is working out for them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0
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