I want to hear all sides of all these stories. Of course I don't think Alton Sterling deserved to die, but did he resist arrest? I'm also uncomfortable seeing him described in the media as "father of 5" as opposed to "father of 5 with a lengthy criminal record." Yes, his criminal record does factor into how a police officer approaches him. And he shouldn't have had a gun.
I know this thread is about shooting, but what about Freddie Gray? He gets arrested and put into a police van and ends up dead. Is anyone going to be found responsible for that?
The idea that there are so many names of people who have been killed recently that I have to Google them makes me sick.
I live in Falcon Heights, MN. 5 blocks from the shooting of Mr. Castile. If I walk to the end of my block I can see the spot where it happened. It sucks.
I was shocked yesterday morning when I woke up and learned what happened the previous evening. I didnt notice the police activity since a major storm occured the night before and had knocked out the power in the area. Emergency sirens had been going around the clock in the area for 24 hours prior.
The Twin Cities has a major issue with racism and is pretty segeragated. I can say this. I work at an inner city school on the west side St. Paul. Two out of the 140 students are white. Over 85% are immigrants or refugees who don't speak English. I see, hear, and confront racism daily. It sucks, but it's real. I have seen the police beat the shit out of people. Now I'm not a total bleeding heart person. If someone is being a knucklehead sometimes a "what for" is appropriate, but a boot stomp to the back of the head when on the ground isnt.
Falcon Heights isn't very diverse. Very white, middle to upper middle class. Lots of teachers and professors (part of the U of MN campus is in the city). It is also small, less than 5,000 residents. It doesn't have police force. Police are contracted by St Anthony. My experience with the St. Anthony police is this: they are young, inexperienced, and bored. Nothing happens in Falcon Heights. A couple years ago the neighbor reported someone had broken into his garage. The St Anthony PD dispatched several squad cars, the K-9 unit, and helicopter with search light. No joke. It was treated like a horrible event involving a serial killer. The night before the shooting, after the thunderstorm ended, me and some neighbors were chatting on the side walk and a St Anthony officer pulled up and basically told us to move along and go inside. We all rolled our eyes and he left. He was maybe 21. The cop who shot Mr. Castile is 24.
Anyways the consensus in the neighborhood is that the cop fucked up. Even my Fox News watching neighbor stated so.
This country has major, major problems with racism, violence, and guns. Until we admit it we are doomed to continue down this road. This afternoon the top three headlines in the Minneapolis news were all about shootings: Mr. Castile, Dallas, and a gang related shooting this afternoon in minneapolis where two infants were shot in a drive by while in car seats in a van. One died.
^^^fair point for sure. Very tough situation. Its a hard job but cops have to be so careful not to cross that line and become the criminal
Yes
Ridiculous.
'No buts'.
So you're basically saying cops should eat a bullet rather than make a mistake deciphering intent when dealing with some guy breaking the law, physically resisting arrest, and trying to grab his gun.
Good gawd, man. F**king ridiculous.
Always on the defense. No that is not what I'm basically saying. Resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. Protocol for cops is you shoot to kill. There is something wrong with that mentality right there. Because there are too many deaths overall.
Shoot to kill makes perfect sense. The idea is a gun is a lethal weapon, you should not use a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill and is seen as the best/only option to stopping an imminent threat. Why would you use lethal force if your only intent is to injure someone? That doesn't make sense. That's what tasers, bean bags, pepper spray etc are for. Lethal force is exactly for that. Why would you use lethal force if your intent wasn't to kill? Why would you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger if you didn't intend to kill? A gun is to only be used and fired only when lethal force is justified, and when it is justified (meaning you are in fear of your own life or someone else's) I wouldn't want to use anything less than lethal force if my life depended on it.
^^^fair point for sure. Very tough situation. Its a hard job but cops have to be so careful not to cross that line and become the criminal
Yes
Ridiculous.
'No buts'.
So you're basically saying cops should eat a bullet rather than make a mistake deciphering intent when dealing with some guy breaking the law, physically resisting arrest, and trying to grab his gun.
Good gawd, man. F**king ridiculous.
Always on the defense. No that is not what I'm basically saying. Resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. Protocol for cops is you shoot to kill. There is something wrong with that mentality right there. Because there are too many deaths overall.
Shoot to kill makes perfect sense. The idea is a gun is a lethal weapon, you should not use a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill and is seen as the best/only option to stopping an imminent threat. Why would you use lethal force if your only intent is to injure someone? That doesn't make sense. That's what tasers, bean bags, pepper spray etc are for. Lethal force is exactly for that. Why would you use lethal force if your intent wasn't to kill? Why would you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger if you didn't intend to kill? A gun is to only be used and fired only when lethal force is justified, and when it is justified (meaning you are in fear of your own life or someone else's) I wouldn't want to use anything less than lethal force if my life depended on it.
Good points. But to correct an error from the post above , cops aren't trained to shoot to kill. They're trained (as is everyone who takes firearms self defense courses) to aim for center mass. Aim for the largest target. Shooting arms, or shooting guns out of hands is the stuff of Hollywood.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
^^^fair point for sure. Very tough situation. Its a hard job but cops have to be so careful not to cross that line and become the criminal
Yes
Ridiculous.
'No buts'.
So you're basically saying cops should eat a bullet rather than make a mistake deciphering intent when dealing with some guy breaking the law, physically resisting arrest, and trying to grab his gun.
Good gawd, man. F**king ridiculous.
Always on the defense. No that is not what I'm basically saying. Resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. Protocol for cops is you shoot to kill. There is something wrong with that mentality right there. Because there are too many deaths overall.
Shoot to kill makes perfect sense. The idea is a gun is a lethal weapon, you should not use a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill and is seen as the best/only option to stopping an imminent threat. Why would you use lethal force if your only intent is to injure someone? That doesn't make sense. That's what tasers, bean bags, pepper spray etc are for. Lethal force is exactly for that. Why would you use lethal force if your intent wasn't to kill? Why would you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger if you didn't intend to kill? A gun is to only be used and fired only when lethal force is justified, and when it is justified (meaning you are in fear of your own life or someone else's) I wouldn't want to use anything less than lethal force if my life depended on it.
Good points. But to correct an error from the post above , cops aren't trained to shoot to kill. They're trained (as is everyone who takes firearms self defense courses) to aim for center mass. Aim for the largest target. Shooting arms, or shooting guns out of hands is the stuff of Hollywood.
Center mass just happens to mean shoot to kill. Exactly the problem. Cops need to kill LESS not more. That is our very problem!
^^^fair point for sure. Very tough situation. Its a hard job but cops have to be so careful not to cross that line and become the criminal
Yes
Ridiculous.
'No buts'.
So you're basically saying cops should eat a bullet rather than make a mistake deciphering intent when dealing with some guy breaking the law, physically resisting arrest, and trying to grab his gun.
Good gawd, man. F**king ridiculous.
Always on the defense. No that is not what I'm basically saying. Resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. Protocol for cops is you shoot to kill. There is something wrong with that mentality right there. Because there are too many deaths overall.
Shoot to kill makes perfect sense. The idea is a gun is a lethal weapon, you should not use a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill and is seen as the best/only option to stopping an imminent threat. Why would you use lethal force if your only intent is to injure someone? That doesn't make sense. That's what tasers, bean bags, pepper spray etc are for. Lethal force is exactly for that. Why would you use lethal force if your intent wasn't to kill? Why would you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger if you didn't intend to kill? A gun is to only be used and fired only when lethal force is justified, and when it is justified (meaning you are in fear of your own life or someone else's) I wouldn't want to use anything less than lethal force if my life depended on it.
Good points. But to correct an error from the post above , cops aren't trained to shoot to kill. They're trained (as is everyone who takes firearms self defense courses) to aim for center mass. Aim for the largest target. Shooting arms, or shooting guns out of hands is the stuff of Hollywood.
Center mass just happens to mean shoot to kill. Exactly the problem. Cops need to kill LESS not more. That is our very problem!
Oh, sorta like how your suggestion that 'no' circumstances (or 'no' buts) warrant a cop shooting someone just happens to mean a cop should eat a bullet before resorting to lethal defence?
Center mass means situation critical- protect yourself. Don't try and shoot a thin arm to send yet another warning when your life is in danger. Shoot the biggest target to ensure the next move your assailant makes on you isn't lethal.
Look, I'm with you in legitimate cases of cop abuse. But don't try too hard to generalize every case of cop violence as avoidable. Some criminals try extra hard to get shot.
I live in Falcon Heights, MN. 5 blocks from the shooting of Mr. Castile. If I walk to the end of my block I can see the spot where it happened. It sucks.
I was shocked yesterday morning when I woke up and learned what happened the previous evening. I didnt notice the police activity since a major storm occured the night before and had knocked out the power in the area. Emergency sirens had been going around the clock in the area for 24 hours prior.
The Twin Cities has a major issue with racism and is pretty segeragated. I can say this. I work at an inner city school on the west side St. Paul. Two out of the 140 students are white. Over 85% are immigrants or refugees who don't speak English. I see, hear, and confront racism daily. It sucks, but it's real. I have seen the police beat the shit out of people. Now I'm not a total bleeding heart person. If someone is being a knucklehead sometimes a "what for" is appropriate, but a boot stomp to the back of the head when on the ground isnt.
Falcon Heights isn't very diverse. Very white, middle to upper middle class. Lots of teachers and professors (part of the U of MN campus is in the city). It is also small, less than 5,000 residents. It doesn't have police force. Police are contracted by St Anthony. My experience with the St. Anthony police is this: they are young, inexperienced, and bored. Nothing happens in Falcon Heights. A couple years ago the neighbor reported someone had broken into his garage. The St Anthony PD dispatched several squad cars, the K-9 unit, and helicopter with search light. No joke. It was treated like a horrible event involving a serial killer. The night before the shooting, after the thunderstorm ended, me and some neighbors were chatting on the side walk and a St Anthony officer pulled up and basically told us to move along and go inside. We all rolled our eyes and he left. He was maybe 21. The cop who shot Mr. Castile is 24.
Anyways the consensus in the neighborhood is that the cop fucked up. Even my Fox News watching neighbor stated so.
This country has major, major problems with racism, violence, and guns. Until we admit it we are doomed to continue down this road. This afternoon the top three headlines in the Minneapolis news were all about shootings: Mr. Castile, Dallas, and a gang related shooting this afternoon in minneapolis where two infants were shot in a drive by while in car seats in a van. One died.
Thank you for that insight on your city. I must I never knew there were gangs in MN St Paul, I always thought it was TOO COLD for such activity. I just imagined frozen lakes and fishing.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
That was great. Thanks for sharing Free.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
This makes zero sense and is paradoxical. You must not like police. There interact with the public all the time and are very good at it. They are just people.
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
I'm pretty sure they weren't tired of him squirming so they shot him in the head.
Their lives would most certainly be in danger if he had gotten ahold of his gun with the intent to use it.
Have you ever been in a fight? Did you see the video? Did you see the fight this guy put up? You talk as if securing the weapon would be as easy as placing a Dr. Spock trapezius squeeze and lifting the gun from his pocket with their thumb and forefinger. That situation was far more intense than you could possibly understand.
With some... cops cannot win no matter what. If the cops had shot him as he stood there... you'd have a case. They implemented multiple tactics and even engaged in hand to hand- which placed them at considerable risk- prior to resorting to the gun... and you're still finding fault. I guess it's only good police work if one or both die?
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
This makes zero sense and is paradoxical. You must not like police. There interact with the public all the time and are very good at it. They are just people.
Quotes are messed up when responding to dignin. Bolded is my response
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
That was great. Thanks for sharing Free.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
^^^^ (to above... quote feature messed up)
I think it's a two way street. I think the public needs to understand the situation with a remote level of intelligence. If the public doesn't give police a reason to escalate their response levels... we'll see far fewer of these cell phone videos.
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
That was great. Thanks for sharing Free.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
I think it's a two way street. I think the public needs to understand the situation with a remote level of intelligence. If the public doesn't give police a reason to escalate their response levels... we'll see far fewer of these cell phone videos.
Well we can control one half of the equation with better police standards and training....we could begin that change today. Making the public smarter? Well, good luck with that.
Besides, it's the police serving the public...not the other way around. We have to start somewhere because status quo is obviously not working.
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
That was great. Thanks for sharing Free.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
I think it's a two way street. I think the public needs to understand the situation with a remote level of intelligence. If the public doesn't give police a reason to escalate their response levels... we'll see far fewer of these cell phone videos.
Well we can control one half of the equation with better police standards and training....we could begin that change today. Making the public smarter? Well, good luck with that.
Besides, it's the police serving the public...not the other way around. We have to start somewhere because status quo is obviously not working.
Yes. If the public serves a nice cup of steaming hot violence or attitude to police it will be declined in an utmost swift way.
edit - quotes still messed up responding to dignin, bolded is my post.
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
We have calls for service that we need to respond to. We have a grateful public that needs us, we have responsibilities. Yes, there are those out here who do not like us, or what we represent. It's been that way long before I or you became officers, and it will be that way long after we're gone.
I, as well as the public we serve have certain expectations, and we would all like them met when you can.
Here are just a few...
We expect you to be kind, we expect you to be fair, we expect you to be professional, and we expect you to do the best you can on every call for service.
We expect you to know the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and when to use your best discretion.
We expect you to leave people better than you found them when you can, and never take away someone’s dignity.
We expect you to be well-trained, and to know when, and when not to apply your training.
We expect you to be human. That means it's ok to laugh, cry, and be scared at times.
I want you to remember why you chose to answer this public service calling. I hope it was to be part of something bigger than yourself, I hope it was to serve the public that we love, and I hope it was to build relationships with coworkers, as well as our public.
I hope you chose this calling because you love having a front row seat into the lives of people, love problem solving, and know that what you do makes your family and friends proud.
Yes, we are all sharing in some dark times right now. But, we still expect you to be brilliant at the basics and do your job to the best of your abilities. ...
I expect you to patrol your areas with a smile on your face, kindness in your heart, calmness in your soul, and a wave to those you see. I expect you to get out of your patrol car and visit. I want you to listen to the compliments, the concerns, take them all in, and remember, it's not "us vs. them"
I expect you to show others that we are better than these tragedies, and we are striving to be better in so many ways.
I expect you to be safe at work, and at home. I hope you visit with your family openly about the current state of our nation, and how if we give into fear, violence, propaganda, etc. we will not be part of the solution.
If you or another member of our public service family is struggling, I expect you to get help, and I expect you to help others. I promise you, there is no shame in seeking help and being well.
I, as well as so many others are here for you. If you need me, I will be just a phone call, or radio call away.
I truly appreciate, and love each and everyone of you.
Stay safe,
Lee
That was great. Thanks for sharing Free.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
I think it's a two way street. I think the public needs to understand the situation with a remote level of intelligence. If the public doesn't give police a reason to escalate their response levels... we'll see far fewer of these cell phone videos.
Well we can control one half of the equation with better police standards and training....we could begin that change today. Making the public smarter? Well, good luck with that.
Besides, it's the police serving the public...not the other way around. We have to start somewhere because status quo is obviously not working.
Edit: I think I fixed the messed up quote
But in the short term, I don't think the answer is to ask police people to take unnecessary risks.
With regards to the status quo... I'd be curious to know where you sit with my last post in the Police Abuse thread.
I see a lot of how the police can change, but can we also have a conversation as to how some in the black community need to change. There is a culture in the portions of the black community that have no respect for anything. I have seen the videos of the projects, I have worked in black neighborhoods. There is a portion that do not have any respect for their fellow man, for other peoples property, for each other. I don't know, there is no simple answer, but I do not believe this is all the police or all the whites or all the blacks or all the whoever fault. Each party has a part in the current discourse. Until everyone can admit that we will not be able to move forward.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
Why do you say their lives weren't in danger?
Because they had him pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck and at least one more cop there to restrain his arms.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
Why do you say their lives weren't in danger?
Because they had him pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck and at least one more cop there to restrain his arms.
They... with 'at least one more'?
No. 'They' were two. There was not 'at least one more'. And that pin wouldn't have won a wrestling match. They were close, but the deal wasn't sealed from my perspective.
There's new video. It's from the other side. They are trying to restrain him. He is resisting even as they get him to the ground. It's still unclear at this point exactly what Alston did with regards to reaching for his weapon, but he was struggling to do something. After the shots are fired... the one cop secures the gun from his pocket and cusses. I would have too.
If video emerges definitively showing no attempt at the weapon and demonstrating the officer freaked out at the sight of it... I'd be prepared to change my tune. If new video showed he made an effort to get his gun... would you change yours?
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
Why do you say their lives weren't in danger?
Because they had him pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck and at least one more cop there to restrain his arms.
It is like rape. The more the victim struggles the worse it is for them. The victim either has to fight which often leads to their violent demise or give up and let it happen. As long as this guy was resisting while not in hancuffs and hogtied like a pig and was carrying a weapon the police were not safe.
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
Why do you say their lives weren't in danger?
Because they had him pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck and at least one more cop there to restrain his arms.
It is like rape. The more the victim struggles the worse it is for them. The victim either has to fight which often leads to their violent demise or give up and let it happen. As long as this guy was resisting while not in hancuffs and hogtied like a pig and was carrying a weapon the police were not safe.
I really can't tell if you're sincere, but are you suggesting someone being raped is better off just lying back and taking some violent fuck's dick (or worse) vs fighting back?
Yeah, I lean toward the latter.
Sorry, but comparing this to rape...two completely different situations and while I can appreciate the parallels you're trying to put forth, that is a fucked up analogy.
I see a lot of how the police can change, but can we also have a conversation as to how some in the black community need to change. There is a culture in the portions of the black community that have no respect for anything. I have seen the videos of the projects, I have worked in black neighborhoods. There is a portion that do not have any respect for their fellow man, for other peoples property, for each other. I don't know, there is no simple answer, but I do not believe this is all the police or all the whites or all the blacks or all the whoever fault. Each party has a part in the current discourse. Until everyone can admit that we will not be able to move forward.
"But can we also have a conversation as how some in the black community need to change".... I hate to inform you of this Dirty, but that Be Racist. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of talk.
I see a lot of how the police can change, but can we also have a conversation as to how some in the black community need to change. There is a culture in the portions of the black community that have no respect for anything. I have seen the videos of the projects, I have worked in black neighborhoods. There is a portion that do not have any respect for their fellow man, for other peoples property, for each other. I don't know, there is no simple answer, but I do not believe this is all the police or all the whites or all the blacks or all the whoever fault. Each party has a part in the current discourse. Until everyone can admit that we will not be able to move forward.
"But can we also have a conversation as how some in the black community need to change".... I hate to inform you of this Dirty, but that Be Racist. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of talk.
Just a quick question. How is it that multiple police officers found it so hard to restrict the arms of a single man so as to ensure that he was not capable of reaching for a gun? Surely this should have been their first priority, securing his weapon
Exactly. Those cops' lives were not actually in danger, and that is the problem. They just wanted the guy to stop squirming to make it easier for them, so they shot him in the head.
Why do you say their lives weren't in danger?
Because they had him pinned to the ground with a knee on his neck and at least one more cop there to restrain his arms.
It is like rape. The more the victim struggles the worse it is for them. The victim either has to fight which often leads to their violent demise or give up and let it happen. As long as this guy was resisting while not in hancuffs and hogtied like a pig and was carrying a weapon the police were not safe.
I really can't tell if you're sincere, but are you suggesting someone being raped is better off just lying back and taking some violent fuck's dick (or worse) vs fighting back?
Yeah, I lean toward the latter.
Sorry, but comparing this to rape...two completely different situations and while I can appreciate the parallels you're trying to put forth, that is a fucked up analogy.
I hope you can see that.
Getting to a point in the struggle and knowing that the only way to survive the attack is to let it happen is what it was to be interpreted as.
Comments
I want to hear all sides of all these stories. Of course I don't think Alton Sterling deserved to die, but did he resist arrest? I'm also uncomfortable seeing him described in the media as "father of 5" as opposed to "father of 5 with a lengthy criminal record." Yes, his criminal record does factor into how a police officer approaches him. And he shouldn't have had a gun.
I know this thread is about shooting, but what about Freddie Gray? He gets arrested and put into a police van and ends up dead. Is anyone going to be found responsible for that?
The idea that there are so many names of people who have been killed recently that I have to Google them makes me sick.
I was shocked yesterday morning when I woke up and learned what happened the previous evening. I didnt notice the police activity since a major storm occured the night before and had knocked out the power in the area. Emergency sirens had been going around the clock in the area for 24 hours prior.
The Twin Cities has a major issue with racism and is pretty segeragated. I can say this. I work at an inner city school on the west side St. Paul. Two out of the 140 students are white. Over 85% are immigrants or refugees who don't speak English. I see, hear, and confront racism daily. It sucks, but it's real. I have seen the police beat the shit out of people. Now I'm not a total bleeding heart person. If
someone is being a knucklehead sometimes a "what for" is appropriate, but a boot stomp to the back of the head when on the ground isnt.
Falcon Heights isn't very diverse. Very white, middle to upper middle class. Lots of teachers and professors (part of the U of MN campus is in the city). It is also small, less than 5,000 residents. It doesn't have police force. Police are contracted by St Anthony. My experience with the St. Anthony police is this: they are young, inexperienced, and bored. Nothing happens in Falcon Heights. A couple years ago the neighbor reported someone had broken into his garage. The St Anthony PD dispatched several squad cars, the K-9 unit, and helicopter with search light. No joke. It was treated like a horrible event involving a serial killer. The night before the shooting, after the thunderstorm ended, me and some neighbors were chatting on the side walk and a St Anthony officer pulled up and basically told us to move along and go inside. We all
rolled our eyes and he left. He was maybe 21. The cop who shot Mr. Castile is 24.
Anyways the consensus in the neighborhood is that the cop fucked up. Even my Fox News watching neighbor stated so.
This country has major, major problems with racism, violence, and guns. Until we admit it we are doomed to continue down this road. This afternoon the top three headlines in the Minneapolis news were all about shootings: Mr. Castile, Dallas, and a gang related shooting this afternoon in minneapolis where two infants were shot in a drive by while in car seats in a van. One died.
The trick is how to deal with them.
(Good post by the way)
The idea is a gun is a lethal weapon, you should not use a lethal weapon unless you intend to kill and is seen as the best/only option to stopping an imminent threat. Why would you use lethal force if your only intent is to injure someone? That doesn't make sense. That's what tasers, bean bags, pepper spray etc are for.
Lethal force is exactly for that.
Why would you use lethal force if your intent wasn't to kill? Why would you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger if you didn't intend to kill? A gun is to only be used and fired only when lethal force is justified, and when it is justified (meaning you are in fear of your own life or someone else's) I wouldn't want to use anything less than lethal force if my life depended on it.
Center mass means situation critical- protect yourself. Don't try and shoot a thin arm to send yet another warning when your life is in danger. Shoot the biggest target to ensure the next move your assailant makes on you isn't lethal.
Look, I'm with you in legitimate cases of cop abuse. But don't try too hard to generalize every case of cop violence as avoidable. Some criminals try extra hard to get shot.
Obviously, some people die after being shot, others don't.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
One police chief's humble solution to violence.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/07/its-not-us-vs-them/490493/
From the tiny town of Kenyon, Minnesota, Police Chief Lee Sjolander has a message for the 12,000 other police districts across the country.
Writing from his department’s Facebook page this morning, he advocates a humble role of public servitude that is antithetical to the toxic masculinity with which some police departments have been infected. “If I were your chief,” he writes, “and we worked for the same agency, serving the same great community, I would attend roll call, and here is what I would say”:
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
This makes zero sense and is paradoxical.
You must not like police. There interact with the public all the time and are very good at it. They are just people.
Their lives would most certainly be in danger if he had gotten ahold of his gun with the intent to use it.
Have you ever been in a fight? Did you see the video? Did you see the fight this guy put up? You talk as if securing the weapon would be as easy as placing a Dr. Spock trapezius squeeze and lifting the gun from his pocket with their thumb and forefinger. That situation was far more intense than you could possibly understand.
With some... cops cannot win no matter what. If the cops had shot him as he stood there... you'd have a case. They implemented multiple tactics and even engaged in hand to hand- which placed them at considerable risk- prior to resorting to the gun... and you're still finding fault. I guess it's only good police work if one or both die?
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
This makes zero sense and is paradoxical.
You must not like police. There interact with the public all the time and are very good at it. They are just people.
Quotes are messed up when responding to dignin.
Bolded is my response
I truly believe that change has to start with the way police deal with the public. Then the public will follow and change the way they interact with the police.
^^^^ (to above... quote feature messed up)
I think it's a two way street. I think the public needs to understand the situation with a remote level of intelligence. If the public doesn't give police a reason to escalate their response levels... we'll see far fewer of these cell phone videos.
Besides, it's the police serving the public...not the other way around. We have to start somewhere because status quo is obviously not working.
Edit: I think I fixed the messed up quote
Besides, it's the police serving the public...not the other way around. We have to start somewhere because status quo is obviously not working.
Yes. If the public serves a nice cup of steaming hot violence or attitude to police it will be declined in an utmost swift way.
edit - quotes still messed up responding to dignin, bolded is my post.
What fucking dream world are some people living in. Eye roll emoji.
With regards to the status quo... I'd be curious to know where you sit with my last post in the Police Abuse thread.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
No. 'They' were two. There was not 'at least one more'. And that pin wouldn't have won a wrestling match. They were close, but the deal wasn't sealed from my perspective.
There's new video. It's from the other side. They are trying to restrain him. He is resisting even as they get him to the ground. It's still unclear at this point exactly what Alston did with regards to reaching for his weapon, but he was struggling to do something. After the shots are fired... the one cop secures the gun from his pocket and cusses. I would have too.
If video emerges definitively showing no attempt at the weapon and demonstrating the officer freaked out at the sight of it... I'd be prepared to change my tune. If new video showed he made an effort to get his gun... would you change yours?
The victim either has to fight which often leads to their violent demise or give up and let it happen.
As long as this guy was resisting while not in hancuffs and hogtied like a pig and was carrying a weapon the police were not safe.
Yeah, I lean toward the latter.
Sorry, but comparing this to rape...two completely different situations and while I can appreciate the parallels you're trying to put forth, that is a fucked up analogy.
I hope you can see that.
edit - liking the new avatar musky