Very telling of responses garnered from religious discussions. Like this big house of cards and everyone is so darn scared of it falling down. So let's whisper and cower in fear in event god will strike us down. In fear of offending a very fragile belief system.
Believe what you want, let me do the same - or at least try to find my own way - and take care to not trample on others or be an asshole in the process.
Ultimately this is how I feel. Live and let live, believe (or not) and let believe (or not). Maybe we'll find out after our mortal existence who was "right". Maybe we'll just return to dust, and it's lights out.
Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made. (About UFOs vs gods)
The problem with your position, and SD's is that it is a logical fallacy. As PJ Soul said, you can't prove something doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on the person saying that something DOES exist. If it exists, it must be provable. If it doesn't exist, there isn't anything there to demonstrate it's non-existence except that there is no evidence of its existence.
A philosopher, huh? I hated that course. It looks like a hole in my argument if you spin it around that way. Was not what I set out to argue --- just don't be mean to others because you think they are wrong. Who cares if someone is gay, chooses to believe in a god (or gods), attend church or whatever? What Hedo said covers it.
100% agree with this sentiment, and Hedo's. Especially the part about not being an asshole. I just have a hard time restraining myself with the "prove god doesn't exist" argument.
jeffbr, I'll put it to you this way:
That's one paradoxical kitty right there. Are you implying god is in Schroedinger's cat box? Or that god is cat state? I'm admittedly weak in my quantum mechanics. It makes my brain explode (or maybe it just settles into a quantum superposition).
Sort of to mickeyrat's point, I'm simply expressing an argument utilizing an equation from the field of quantum physics that posits that, from a scientific standpoint, the task of proving nonexistence is equivalent to the task of proving existence -- no matter what one happens believe as truth. It exists and it doesn't exist simultaneously. Folks can argue all they want, but that's the way it's been, that's the way it is now, and perhaps that's the way it will be.
On another note, as a relative outsider who imagines himself to be on friendly terms with everyone involved in this argument, I don't recall anybody calling anyone an asshole. I have seen the word quite a bit in this thread, though. Mostly, I have seen it inferred or implied -- or both simultaneously.
Hardheaded was used, but that's hardly an insult or synonymous with asshole. Or is it?
If it is, I've got a bone to pick with a long list of people.
Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made. (About UFOs vs gods)
The problem with your position, and SD's is that it is a logical fallacy. As PJ Soul said, you can't prove something doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on the person saying that something DOES exist. If it exists, it must be provable. If it doesn't exist, there isn't anything there to demonstrate it's non-existence except that there is no evidence of its existence.
I just hate that when an atheist tells a believer that their belief is BS, that's shitting on their beliefs. When a believer tells an atheist that their belief is BS, they're just speaking the word of god.
Listen to some of my music here (if you want to):
[url="My soundcloud"]
Maybe instead of judgement , ask how its working for them. If the answer is positive, express happiness about that. If its the opposite, express sympathy. Focus on the individual
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I just hate that when an atheist tells a believer that their belief is BS, that's shitting on their beliefs. When a believer tells an atheist that their belief is BS, they're just speaking the word of god.
Exactly.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Maybe instead of judgement , ask how its working for them. If the answer is positive, express happiness about that. If its the opposite, express sympathy. Focus on the individual
I agree if you're focusing on the individual. But religion does not only have an individual impact. Writing religion off as just a personal belief for each individual seems incredibly dismissive of its actual role in the world, not to mention irresponsible, since that attitude sure does give organized religions free reign over what they do to people and societies. It is that non-individual role of religion in the world that makes it an important topic of discussion. It impacts laws, government, social policy, education, war, equality, etc etc etc. This is not a personal issue.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Maybe instead of judgement , ask how its working for them. If the answer is positive, express happiness about that. If its the opposite, express sympathy. Focus on the individual
Maybe instead of judgement , ask how its working for them. If the answer is positive, express happiness about that. If its the opposite, express sympathy. Focus on the individual
There ya go.
Guess I'm also a "fence-sitter" but so be it. I'd never give anyone shit for what they do or don't believe in, nor call BS, nor demand proof. No problem or fear or insecurity or any of that; I welcome discussions wholeheartedly but ask (sometimes to deaf ears!) that preaching and self-righteousness be left at the door no matter where you're coming from.
It's so simple...it really is. Or can be.
And, I'm fortunate to have come to know some of the best and kindest people whom I respect and trust without reservation - some who have faith, some who don't, and other in-betweens like myself.
For the record: I don't know if god does or does not exist. I was just asking a couple of questions regarding some statements made here, not try to sway anyone from their beliefs (as if that was possible ). I don't believe I called or inferred or intimated that anyone was an asshole. I do believe in separation of church and state.
As for thread integrity, I stand by what I posted earlier: yes, you can be in a gay/lesbian marriage, attend church (depending on the church), and have a belief in god.
I'm with Hedo I'm an atheist but I respect the right of an individual to hold whatever beliefs they so choose, as long as said beliefs in no way impinge on my life. Just as I expect my own views to be respected, so too I must respect the views of others, however I feel about them. The problems arise because we do not have a separation of church and state and so religious beliefs persist in leading to the persecution of innocent people.
So in theory, I have no issue with the concept of belief in a god, if it makes you happy. However, I have a huge problem when that belief harms another person
Maybe instead of judgement , ask how its working for them. If the answer is positive, express happiness about that. If its the opposite, express sympathy. Focus on the individual
I respect the right of people to hold whatever beliefs they want too, in case any of you haven't picked up on that. I don't feel like anyone in this thread or any other thead has actually ever suggested otherwise. That is, I respect the right. I feel no obligation to respect other people's actual beliefs. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I think any sane person would have to say the same.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
labels are unfair. Judgement of others life is unfair as well. There are 9 different definitions for the word "truth". Self labeling doesn't really do us much good either. sensory driven human beings...if I can't see, touch, hear, feel or taste it, then it is not there? We know this is not true. I've accepted that my brain is not advanced enough to either fully accept a Holy Spirit as part of my being or that natural evolution is how I came to be. Maybe it was a combination of both, maybe God existed for awhile and then he moved on because man advanced. I don't know that any of us animals can say with absolute certainty. People believe this or that, home school is wrong, raising your kid with a gender is right, dogs should be kept outside, cats can be inside with the potbellied pig, lol, etc. People don't need religion to cause a ruckus, they will do it anyway, under another name. I am a child of this world, however it came to be.
Amy
Amy The Great #74594
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016 Missoula MT 2018
FSM would tell us to drink some rum, get some hookers, and relax. Pastafarians don't hate on others' opinions because they are too busy living their own lives and getting fucked up.
FSM would tell us to drink some rum, get some hookers, and relax. Pastafarians don't hate on others' opinions because they are too busy living their own lives and getting fucked up.
We're getting off topic a bit here but I can see how the world would be better off without religion as defined as a belief in something purely fictional that people incorporate in making big decisions about how they and others should live their lives- especially when it is foisted off on others.
And besides, much of what religion is about is to fulfill a desire many humans have to engage in ritual and that desire can be just as easily fulfilled be celebrating the solstices or a full moon or going to a Pearl Jam concert or recognizing a birth or death or something else that is real and significant.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Would this topic title be any different from a scientist who believes in god, goes to church and is working on the big bang theory? Everybody is different.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
We're getting off topic a bit here but I can see how the world would be better off without religion as defined as a belief in something purely fictional that people incorporate in making big decisions about how they and others should live their lives- especially when it is foisted off on others.
And besides, much of what religion is about is to fulfill a desire many humans have to engage in ritual and that desire can be just as easily fulfilled be celebrating the solstices or a full moon or going to a Pearl Jam concert or recognizing a birth or death or something else that is real and significant.
I get it. Sort of. Like a lot of folks (not me, fwiw) recognize that the birth and death (and rebirth) of Jesus Christ were all real and significant (again, not me).
Whatever, I enjoy the presents and candy.
I don't think I have any rituals. Nor do I think that I have any desires to engage in them.
Comments
It would be okay.
People will still be nice to each other.
We have established morals.
We have rule of law.
Would all be okay.
On another note, as a relative outsider who imagines himself to be on friendly terms with everyone involved in this argument, I don't recall anybody calling anyone an asshole. I have seen the word quite a bit in this thread, though. Mostly, I have seen it inferred or implied -- or both simultaneously.
Hardheaded was used, but that's hardly an insult or synonymous with asshole. Or is it?
If it is, I've got a bone to pick with a long list of people.
But really, I believe in scientific method.....God doesn't fit there. So I'm an Atheist.
I'm with you PJSoul, the burden of proof is on the believers....were not the ones claiming something that could never be measured or proven.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Guess I'm also a "fence-sitter" but so be it. I'd never give anyone shit for what they do or don't believe in, nor call BS, nor demand proof. No problem or fear or insecurity or any of that; I welcome discussions wholeheartedly but ask (sometimes to deaf ears!) that preaching and self-righteousness be left at the door no matter where you're coming from.
It's so simple...it really is. Or can be.
And, I'm fortunate to have come to know some of the best and kindest people whom I respect and trust without reservation - some who have faith, some who don't, and other in-betweens like myself.
I don't know if god does or does not exist.
I was just asking a couple of questions regarding some statements made here, not try to sway anyone from their beliefs (as if that was possible
I don't believe I called or inferred or intimated that anyone was an asshole.
I do believe in separation of church and state.
As for thread integrity, I stand by what I posted earlier: yes, you can be in a gay/lesbian marriage, attend church (depending on the church), and have a belief in god.
So in theory, I have no issue with the concept of belief in a god, if it makes you happy. However, I have a huge problem when that belief harms another person
2016: Lexington and Wrigley 1
There are 9 different definitions for the word "truth".
Self labeling doesn't really do us much good either.
sensory driven human beings...if I can't see, touch, hear, feel or taste it, then it is not there? We know this is not true.
I've accepted that my brain is not advanced enough to either fully accept a Holy Spirit as part of my being or that natural evolution is how I came to be. Maybe it was a combination of both, maybe God existed for awhile and then he moved on because man advanced. I don't know that any of us animals can say with absolute certainty.
People believe this or that, home school is wrong, raising your kid with a gender is right, dogs should be kept outside, cats can be inside with the potbellied pig, lol, etc.
People don't need religion to cause a ruckus, they will do it anyway, under another name.
I am a child of this world, however it came to be.
Amy
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016
Missoula MT 2018
Sounds about right.
R'amen.
I'd not be here without it.
*edit - without religion/faith, that is. Not the terms in the first sentence...although I guess maybe the former?
And besides, much of what religion is about is to fulfill a desire many humans have to engage in ritual and that desire can be just as easily fulfilled be celebrating the solstices or a full moon or going to a Pearl Jam concert or recognizing a birth or death or something else that is real and significant.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
To the OP's question. Yes.
I do believe that in most religions it is taboo but also in those religions you aren't allowed to cast judgement?
Whatever, I enjoy the presents and candy.
I don't think I have any rituals. Nor do I think that I have any desires to engage in them.
Unless being anti-social is a ritual.