.

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

Why would anyone have the burden of proof for something that doesn't exist? Sorry, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

"Orange and purple dragons don't exist."

"Prove it!"

"Uhhhhh..... They don't exist."

SD48277

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

Hold on now.Dont discount the effect faith has on those who believe.My wife is an atheist and I'm not religious and yes I think religion can be hypocritical and full of fantasy,but to some it's all they have.It offers hope when there may be none elsewhere.It offers comfort when some need it the most.It gives community,and brings happiness.And not all religious activities are pie in the sky.So benevolence is also mixed in.
Not agreeing is fine,but understanding why some hold on to it with all there being is completely understandable to me and I hope if that brings them the peace they need to sustain in this world,then let em enjoy it.Make your soul and mind happy and if that's what does it for you I'm all for it.

I totally understand what religion does for people. I don't discount it. I simply believe in truth. Whatever is true reigns supreme IMO.

This is the root of my basic problem with your stance. I agree with many of your points but the facts (and you mistakenly think the opinion you have is a fact) are that the truth is not known on this issue. Having lack of proof of a god doesn't mean there is not a god. You agree that your opinion may be mean and state that you don't care because you speak the truth.
Well, you speak your truth. Doesn't mean it is the same that everyone else here believes and that your opinion is the only one that could be true.
You have the right to do this of course....but insisting that what you believe is the only truth doesn't make you smarter than others, and being mean about it is breaking the only commandment of the Pearl Jam Religion.

Enkidu, the Pastafarians have a Sabbath....it is on Fridays. There is no requirement other than to enjoy oneself. Drinking beer and relaxing is encouraged.

If one does just the smidge of critical thinking they will realize today's gods and writings, are complete fabrications. So you prove there is a god. You have that burden. You know it's all BS but hold On to it due to comfort. I realize it's very painful to have to read of other humans saying it's all BS. Tough. We need more to yell this at the top of their lungs.

Comment was made to start a religion thread. Well it would fail because believers wouldn't contribute as they know it will have them question their faith. So many times when religion comes up in thread, believers bail. Even saying "I'm outta here."

How do you know that believers haven't questioned their faith?

Oh I feel all religious folks question their faith all the time. It's inevitable. When infants and children get terminal cancer got to make it real hard to think of a just and loving god.

That is not the only time people question their faith. I think you are making some assumptions.

mickeyrat

Bullshit cop out

SD48277

PJ_Soul said:

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

Why would anyone have the burden of proof for something that doesn't exist? Sorry, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

"Orange and purple dragons don't exist."

"Prove it!"

"Uhhhhh..... They don't exist."

Same thing could be said for people who believe in UFOs or possible life on other planets.....

callen

SD48277 said:

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

Hold on now.Dont discount the effect faith has on those who believe.My wife is an atheist and I'm not religious and yes I think religion can be hypocritical and full of fantasy,but to some it's all they have.It offers hope when there may be none elsewhere.It offers comfort when some need it the most.It gives community,and brings happiness.And not all religious activities are pie in the sky.So benevolence is also mixed in.
Not agreeing is fine,but understanding why some hold on to it with all there being is completely understandable to me and I hope if that brings them the peace they need to sustain in this world,then let em enjoy it.Make your soul and mind happy and if that's what does it for you I'm all for it.

I totally understand what religion does for people. I don't discount it. I simply believe in truth. Whatever is true reigns supreme IMO.

This is the root of my basic problem with your stance. I agree with many of your points but the facts (and you mistakenly think the opinion you have is a fact) are that the truth is not known on this issue. Having lack of proof of a god doesn't mean there is not a god. You agree that your opinion may be mean and state that you don't care because you speak the truth.
Well, you speak your truth. Doesn't mean it is the same that everyone else here believes and that your opinion is the only one that could be true.
You have the right to do this of course....but insisting that what you believe is the only truth doesn't make you smarter than others, and being mean about it is breaking the only commandment of the Pearl Jam Religion.

Enkidu, the Pastafarians have a Sabbath....it is on Fridays. There is no requirement other than to enjoy oneself. Drinking beer and relaxing is encouraged.

If one does just the smidge of critical thinking they will realize today's gods and writings, are complete fabrications. So you prove there is a god. You have that burden. You know it's all BS but hold On to it due to comfort. I realize it's very painful to have to read of other humans saying it's all BS. Tough. We need more to yell this at the top of their lungs.

Comment was made to start a religion thread. Well it would fail because believers wouldn't contribute as they know it will have them question their faith. So many times when religion comes up in thread, believers bail. Even saying "I'm outta here."

How do you know that believers haven't questioned their faith?

Oh I feel all religious folks question their faith all the time. It's inevitable. When infants and children get terminal cancer got to make it real hard to think of a just and loving god.

That is not the only time people question their faith. I think you are making some assumptions.

Oh sure there are many.

SD48277

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

Hold on now.Dont discount the effect faith has on those who believe.My wife is an atheist and I'm not religious and yes I think religion can be hypocritical and full of fantasy,but to some it's all they have.It offers hope when there may be none elsewhere.It offers comfort when some need it the most.It gives community,and brings happiness.And not all religious activities are pie in the sky.So benevolence is also mixed in.
Not agreeing is fine,but understanding why some hold on to it with all there being is completely understandable to me and I hope if that brings them the peace they need to sustain in this world,then let em enjoy it.Make your soul and mind happy and if that's what does it for you I'm all for it.

I totally understand what religion does for people. I don't discount it. I simply believe in truth. Whatever is true reigns supreme IMO.

This is the root of my basic problem with your stance. I agree with many of your points but the facts (and you mistakenly think the opinion you have is a fact) are that the truth is not known on this issue. Having lack of proof of a god doesn't mean there is not a god. You agree that your opinion may be mean and state that you don't care because you speak the truth.
Well, you speak your truth. Doesn't mean it is the same that everyone else here believes and that your opinion is the only one that could be true.
You have the right to do this of course....but insisting that what you believe is the only truth doesn't make you smarter than others, and being mean about it is breaking the only commandment of the Pearl Jam Religion.

Enkidu, the Pastafarians have a Sabbath....it is on Fridays. There is no requirement other than to enjoy oneself. Drinking beer and relaxing is encouraged.

If one does just the smidge of critical thinking they will realize today's gods and writings, are complete fabrications. So you prove there is a god. You have that burden. You know it's all BS but hold On to it due to comfort. I realize it's very painful to have to read of other humans saying it's all BS. Tough. We need more to yell this at the top of their lungs.

Comment was made to start a religion thread. Well it would fail because believers wouldn't contribute as they know it will have them question their faith. So many times when religion comes up in thread, believers bail. Even saying "I'm outta here."

How do you know that believers haven't questioned their faith?

Oh I feel all religious folks question their faith all the time. It's inevitable. When infants and children get terminal cancer got to make it real hard to think of a just and loving god.

That is not the only time people question their faith. I think you are making some assumptions.

Oh sure there are many.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

F Me In The Brain

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

I like this. Not sure why people on either side feel like the other side is the only one that needs to prove things. It is indeed a cop out.
I respect the opinions everyone is posting -- my whole thing was not to shit on others for what they choose to believe.

[[And on the subject of believing in Harry Potter...this is why I jokingly refer to myself as a Pastafarian follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Google it if curious. Funny stuff.]]

PJ_Soul

SD48277 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

Why would anyone have the burden of proof for something that doesn't exist? Sorry, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

"Orange and purple dragons don't exist."

"Prove it!"

"Uhhhhh..... They don't exist."

Same thing could be said for people who believe in UFOs or possible life on other planets.....

Not the same at all. There are a lot of tangible things that people could present to suggest that UFOs or possible life on other planets exist or could exist. It doesn't mean people have to buy it (some or any of it), but there are feasible things to consider, which is not at all the case when it comes to God.

callen

SD48277 said:

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

SD48277 said:

callen said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

Hold on now.Dont discount the effect faith has on those who believe.My wife is an atheist and I'm not religious and yes I think religion can be hypocritical and full of fantasy,but to some it's all they have.It offers hope when there may be none elsewhere.It offers comfort when some need it the most.It gives community,and brings happiness.And not all religious activities are pie in the sky.So benevolence is also mixed in.
Not agreeing is fine,but understanding why some hold on to it with all there being is completely understandable to me and I hope if that brings them the peace they need to sustain in this world,then let em enjoy it.Make your soul and mind happy and if that's what does it for you I'm all for it.

I totally understand what religion does for people. I don't discount it. I simply believe in truth. Whatever is true reigns supreme IMO.

This is the root of my basic problem with your stance. I agree with many of your points but the facts (and you mistakenly think the opinion you have is a fact) are that the truth is not known on this issue. Having lack of proof of a god doesn't mean there is not a god. You agree that your opinion may be mean and state that you don't care because you speak the truth.
Well, you speak your truth. Doesn't mean it is the same that everyone else here believes and that your opinion is the only one that could be true.
You have the right to do this of course....but insisting that what you believe is the only truth doesn't make you smarter than others, and being mean about it is breaking the only commandment of the Pearl Jam Religion.

Enkidu, the Pastafarians have a Sabbath....it is on Fridays. There is no requirement other than to enjoy oneself. Drinking beer and relaxing is encouraged.

If one does just the smidge of critical thinking they will realize today's gods and writings, are complete fabrications. So you prove there is a god. You have that burden. You know it's all BS but hold On to it due to comfort. I realize it's very painful to have to read of other humans saying it's all BS. Tough. We need more to yell this at the top of their lungs.

Comment was made to start a religion thread. Well it would fail because believers wouldn't contribute as they know it will have them question their faith. So many times when religion comes up in thread, believers bail. Even saying "I'm outta here."

How do you know that believers haven't questioned their faith?

Oh I feel all religious folks question their faith all the time. It's inevitable. When infants and children get terminal cancer got to make it real hard to think of a just and loving god.

That is not the only time people question their faith. I think you are making some assumptions.

Oh sure there are many.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

No sarcasm. Heck it was my questioning that got me to where I am. Look I think there are some great messages in the bible. I live my life by the golden rule.

F Me In The Brain

Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made. (About UFOs vs gods)

callen

F Me In The Brain said:

Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made.

Would love to see any shred of evidence that would sway my beliefs. Funny your now bailing.

PJ_Soul

F Me In The Brain said:

Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made.

What do you think SD is trying to do? Convert me? lol. What am I supposed to be refusing to believe? Show me something that gives me a reason to believe in God, and I'll believe in God. If you can't do that, no good point has been made. Again, the burden of proof is on the believers.

F Me In The Brain

Was not referencing you Callen, which is why I made my edit. (I realized it was unclear.)
I am in agreement with MickeyRat though....both sides should have to prove. I see no evidence that completely eliminates any possibility of any gods...nor any evidence that confirms any possibility of any gods. It is what people choose to believe.
(And again, I do not believe.)

SD48277

PJ_Soul said:

SD48277 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

Why would anyone have the burden of proof for something that doesn't exist? Sorry, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

"Orange and purple dragons don't exist."

"Prove it!"

"Uhhhhh..... They don't exist."

Same thing could be said for people who believe in UFOs or possible life on other planets.....

Not the same at all. There are a lot of tangible things that people could present to suggest that UFOs or possible life on other planets exist or could exist. It doesn't mean people have to buy it (some or any of it), but there are feasible things to consider, which is not at all the case when it comes to God.

Some people of faith could say the same thing. Just because you, personally, do not buy it, does not mean that it is true for them....same goes for people who claim to have UFO experiences.

And callen, thank you for clarifying.

F Me In The Brain

PJ_Soul said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made.

What do you think SD is trying to do? Convert me? lol. What am I supposed to be refusing to believe? Show me something that gives me a reason to believe in God, and I'll believe in God. If you can't do that, no good point has been made. Again, the burden of proof is on the believers.

Agree to disagree on the highlighted point.
No, I know SD would not try to convert you. She is not that type of girl.

SD48277

F Me, you are the best!

hedonist

No one needs to prove shit.

Believe what you want, let me do the same - or at least try to find my own way - and take care to not trample on others or be an asshole in the process.

jeffbr

F Me In The Brain said:

Give it up SD. Not going to make a point to someone who refuses to believe that anything they believe could be wrong. I think your point is perfectly made. (About UFOs vs gods)

The problem with your position, and SD's is that it is a logical fallacy. As PJ Soul said, you can't prove something doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on the person saying that something DOES exist. If it exists, it must be provable. If it doesn't exist, there isn't anything there to demonstrate it's non-existence except that there is no evidence of its existence.

Empty Glass

hedonist said:

No one needs to prove shit.

Believe what you want, let me do the same - or at least try to find my own way - and take care to not trample on others or be an asshole in the process.

Amen

(No pun intended)

PJ_Soul

SD48277 said:

PJ_Soul said:

SD48277 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mickeyrat said:

As an agnostic it is my position that both believers and non (read athiest) have the burden of proof for their position.

Why would anyone have the burden of proof for something that doesn't exist? Sorry, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

"Orange and purple dragons don't exist."

"Prove it!"

"Uhhhhh..... They don't exist."

Same thing could be said for people who believe in UFOs or possible life on other planets.....

Not the same at all. There are a lot of tangible things that people could present to suggest that UFOs or possible life on other planets exist or could exist. It doesn't mean people have to buy it (some or any of it), but there are feasible things to consider, which is not at all the case when it comes to God.

Some people of faith could say the same thing. Just because you, personally, do not buy it, does not mean that it is true for them....same goes for people who claim to have UFO experiences.

And callen, thank you for clarifying.

Yeah, I know. I`m not sure what you think I`m saying, but you seem to be making the assumption that I expect everyone to agree that I`m right, which is not at all the case (though I`m not surprised you`re assuming that - this is usually where this discussion goes for lack of anything else to say as a defense). However, I still maintain with absolutely surety that it`s utterly illogical and even a philosophical impossibility for people to prove the non-existence of something. The burden of proof must be with the believers alone.