hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Of course Hitler couldn't have done it alone. Many henchmen, planners, engineers, torturers, organizers, architects, shooters, decision-makers. Those who tossed families, gentle people, out of their homes. Who forced atrocities upon many with no mercy.
Honestly, from the heart, fuck them all.
I guess for me - knowing all of this - he just...represents, personifies...that evil. The depraved twisted sick fuckedupness I'll never understand, nor forget.
I actually feel it's incumbent upon me to not forget.
Whew! Good post, Jenny. Brought out something in me, for sure.
I just don't believe of those other psychos would have gotten together and done what they did without Hitler running the show and being their almighty leader. No way. Hitler handpicked those mental cases himself.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
I do not at all agree with the idea of ignoring history or pretending something didn't happen. To me that is exactly the same as burying your head in the sand. Life is reality and craziness and the good and the bad. One of the most famous lines in history: "Never forget."
Good point and I agree and of course you know I don't stick my head in the sand. In the clouds sometimes... well .
But we have remembered A. H. long enough to build something new and better.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I just don't believe of those other psychos would have gotten together and done what they did without Hitler running the show and being their almighty leader. No way. Hitler handpicked those mental cases himself.
Wasn't the puppet master as much as he was the facilitator in my mind. He wasn't Charles Manson sitting around a fire convincing hippy idiots to go mutilate prominent white people to incite a race war.
Anti-Jewish sentiment was massive at the time.
* I wish to say that I understand there were many Germans who placed themselves and their family at great risk helping Jews during that awful time. As well... the were many others that never truly understood the magnitude of what was happening.
I referred to other genocides... but to be clear... this one is the standard for cold, ruthless, and inhuman depravity. Factory genocide. Un-freaking-believable. As awful as all events of WWII were... exposing the events of the Holocaust shocked the most hardened of people.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,895
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I just don't believe of those other psychos would have gotten together and done what they did without Hitler running the show and being their almighty leader. No way. Hitler handpicked those mental cases himself.
Wasn't the puppet master as much as he was the facilitator in my mind. He wasn't Charles Manson sitting around a fire convincing hippy idiots to go mutilate prominent white people to incite a race war.
Anti-Jewish sentiment was massive at the time.
* I wish to say that I understand there were many Germans who placed themselves and their family at great risk helping Jews during that awful time. As well... the were many others that never truly understood the magnitude of what was happening.
I referred to other genocides... but to be clear... this one is the standard for cold, ruthless, and inhuman depravity. Factory genocide. Un-freaking-believable. As awful as all events of WWII were... exposing the events of the Holocaust shocked the most hardened of people.
No, he wasn't a puppet master of idiots. Those crazies were mostly smart men wth ideas of their own. That's why Hitler chose them. But i don't believe they would have gone ahead and committed the any of the atrocities that they did without Hitler bringing them together and creating the SS and facilitating them in what they did. And Hitler did indeed set himself up as the almighty ruler, and chose the men because of their unquestioning dedication to HIM as their leader. Yes, as Hitler went nuts towards tell end of the war several of them lost faith, but in wouldn't underestimate the strength of Hitler's power over them and their actions before that. Hitler worked hard at building a faithful SS and did use all of his skills of persuasion and dominance on them just like he did with the German military, just like he arranged for the Youth Nazis, etc. I do actually think you could look at it as indoctrination, even for his inner circle.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
Last night we watched the movie "Woman in Gold", a really fine movie about a true story and one I recommend. After we watched it I thought about this thread a bit. The story is about Maria Altmann, a Jewish Austrian who fled Vienna when the Nazi Germany took over and terrorized Jewish residents and pillaged their homes. Later on life life, Altmann seeks to recover a beautiful, iconic Klimt painting that was stolen by Nazis. The film has a lot to do with the conflict between restitution and moving on.
After seeing the film I got to thinking about this thread and how stories like these are so much more relevant (at least to my way of thinking) than fantasizing about going back into the past and killing a baby. In fact, in the film the Altmann character visits the art school that turned down a young Hitler and she says "I wish they hadn't." So if anything, maybe it is more useful to wish that Hitler's life had taken a different turn. Maybe if he had gone to art school he would have poured his angst and emotion into works of art rather than works of cruelty and human suffering. But in the end, any wishing about the past will not change the past. It seems to me restitution and learning from history are the most useful acts.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Restitution and learning from history are definitely the most useful acts... at least until time travel is possible. Brian, you keep trying to shoot down the game!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
Restitution and learning from history are definitely the most useful acts... at least until time travel is possible. Brian, you keep trying to shoot down the game!
A born rule breaker, what can I say?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Brian,that was a very good movie.I liked it a lot when I saw it.
Yeah, as i get older I more and more like movies based on true stories. Although I must say I would enjoy a good sci fi flick about someone going back in time and turning Hitler into a pumpkin.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
No, he wasn't a puppet master of idiots. Those crazies were mostly smart men wth ideas of their own. That's why Hitler chose them. But i don't believe they would have gone ahead and committed the any of the atrocities that they did without Hitler bringing them together and creating the SS and facilitating them in what they did. And Hitler did indeed set himself up as the almighty ruler, and chose the men because of their unquestioning dedication to HIM as their leader. Yes, as Hitler went nuts towards tell end of the war several of them lost faith, but in wouldn't underestimate the strength of Hitler's power over them and their actions before that. Hitler worked hard at building a faithful SS and did use all of his skills of persuasion and dominance on them just like he did with the German military, just like he arranged for the Youth Nazis, etc. I do actually think you could look at it as indoctrination, even for his inner circle.
I would agree with that. It feels completely weird to us nowadays to read about the admiration people had for him. I read Goebbels' diaries, for example. He was known as a big womanizer, and at one point had a Jewish mistress. He fell so hard for her that he wanted to leave his wife and the five or how many they had children and go away with her. Then Hitler ordered him to end the relationship because the Goebbels' were such an example family for the Reich, and so he did. And yet he still admired him. They make it sound as if the had a magical aura around him. Which is something I cannot fathom, but of course my judgment is determined by what I learned. I am always happy to read about the resistance people, about those who acted good and helped people. We just were in Amsterdam and visited the Anne Frank house. It was so haunting. I could not go through the concentration camp exhibition afterwards, it all became too much. If anyone ever can, go and see it, but order tickets before online. You can walk through the whole house and see the rooms they were hiding in. Darkened just as they were back then. Fuck the brown shit, each and everyone of them. I would still kill a baby Hitler.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
No, he wasn't a puppet master of idiots. Those crazies were mostly smart men wth ideas of their own. That's why Hitler chose them. But i don't believe they would have gone ahead and committed the any of the atrocities that they did without Hitler bringing them together and creating the SS and facilitating them in what they did. And Hitler did indeed set himself up as the almighty ruler, and chose the men because of their unquestioning dedication to HIM as their leader. Yes, as Hitler went nuts towards tell end of the war several of them lost faith, but in wouldn't underestimate the strength of Hitler's power over them and their actions before that. Hitler worked hard at building a faithful SS and did use all of his skills of persuasion and dominance on them just like he did with the German military, just like he arranged for the Youth Nazis, etc. I do actually think you could look at it as indoctrination, even for his inner circle.
I would agree with that. It feels completely weird to us nowadays to read about the admiration people had for him. I read Goebbels' diaries, for example. He was known as a big womanizer, and at one point had a Jewish mistress. He fell so hard for her that he wanted to leave his wife and the five or how many they had children and go away with her. Then Hitler ordered him to end the relationship because the Goebbels' were such an example family for the Reich, and so he did. And yet he still admired him. They make it sound as if the had a magical aura around him. Which is something I cannot fathom, but of course my judgment is determined by what I learned. I am always happy to read about the resistance people, about those who acted good and helped people. We just were in Amsterdam and visited the Anne Frank house. It was so haunting. I could not go through the concentration camp exhibition afterwards, it all became too much. If anyone ever can, go and see it, but order tickets before online. You can walk through the whole house and see the rooms they were hiding in. Darkened just as they were back then. Fuck the brown shit, each and everyone of them. I would still kill a baby Hitler.
Hitler's charisma is a massive case study for leadership.
To this day, I don't get it. He wasn't the square jawed general with imposing biceps and good looks... he was kind of a rat like figure with the most ridiculous moustache in the history of moustaches. You would have thought people would have laughed at him instead of die for him.
Agreed. But that is where I wonder. Maybe we find him ugly and laughable because of history. The whole charisma thing seems utterly incomprehensible to me. The way he talked, the looks, the evil evil. I don't get it. Maybe even people from back then cannot explain it. Maybe you had to be there. I sometimes wonder if I would have fallen for that if I had lived back then. I do not think I would, but who knows.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Agreed. But that is where I wonder. Maybe we find him ugly and laughable because of history. The whole charisma thing seems utterly incomprehensible to me. The way he talked, the looks, the evil evil. I don't get it. Maybe even people from back then cannot explain it. Maybe you had to be there. I sometimes wonder if I would have fallen for that if I had lived back then. I do not think I would, but who knows.
A fair question you have asked yourself.
A German teacher I had expressed his remorse to me one day mentioning it was his generation that carried the burden of guilt for what their parents had done. I never stopped to think about that aspect of the aftermath.
Yeah I can see that in my parents. They were the ones to discover dirty secrets hidden from them by beloved relatives only to come out later and leading to a path of anger. I have a hard time dealing with the humourous / satirical way people from other countries are dealing with the nazis. To me it is no laughing matter. And even if I am a generation after my parents, the way I was raised and educated at school leaves me with some sort of feeling of guilt. I don't like flying the German flag, I feel no connection to the Bavarian style folkloristic German stuff, I would never say "I am proud to be German" (we had a discussion about this on our Europe trip and my Dad and I tried to explain it to my hubs who is American, we agreed that it would be ok to say "I am happy to be German"). Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that Even though I think I never will.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Yeah I can see that in my parents. They were the ones to discover dirty secrets hidden from them by beloved relatives only to come out later and leading to a path of anger. I have a hard time dealing with the humourous / satirical way people from other countries are dealing with the nazis. To me it is no laughing matter. And even if I am a generation after my parents, the way I was raised and educated at school leaves me with some sort of feeling of guilt. I don't like flying the German flag, I feel no connection to the Bavarian style folkloristic German stuff, I would never say "I am proud to be German" (we had a discussion about this on our Europe trip and my Dad and I tried to explain it to my hubs who is American, we agreed that it would be ok to say "I am happy to be German"). Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that Even though I think I never will.
Very interesting. You must really hate Oktoberfest in the US!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I never even liked it in Germany I have never went there, but I do not feel a desire to do so either. The typical view foreigners who never have been to Germany is what Bavaria is like. This is in no way typical for Germany, it is one facet of it. We are all kinds of things. We have a rich and diverse culture. It is weird to see all of that reduced to one region of a country. But oh well... What is also interesting in that respect is the whole discussion about patriotism. For a German, or at least people like me, patriotism is making you feel awkward. It gets too close to nationalism. I can see how American patriotism is a little bit different, but this is a level that I as a German will never get to about my motherland. I love Germany, don't get me wrong. But this whole patriotism thing for the country you come from is weird to me. We don't have to sing the national anthem at school. I don't even think I could get the lyrics right. It is just not as important. We do not grow up being fed that we live in the greatest country on earth. We are happy for everything we have, but we don't have to yell out the pride thing. Maybe all because of fucking Hitler. And I'd still kill a baby version of him.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Yeah I can see that in my parents. They were the ones to discover dirty secrets hidden from them by beloved relatives only to come out later and leading to a path of anger. I have a hard time dealing with the humourous / satirical way people from other countries are dealing with the nazis. To me it is no laughing matter. And even if I am a generation after my parents, the way I was raised and educated at school leaves me with some sort of feeling of guilt. I don't like flying the German flag, I feel no connection to the Bavarian style folkloristic German stuff, I would never say "I am proud to be German" (we had a discussion about this on our Europe trip and my Dad and I tried to explain it to my hubs who is American, we agreed that it would be ok to say "I am happy to be German"). Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that Even though I think I never will.
Yeah I can see that in my parents. They were the ones to discover dirty secrets hidden from them by beloved relatives only to come out later and leading to a path of anger. I have a hard time dealing with the humourous / satirical way people from other countries are dealing with the nazis. To me it is no laughing matter. And even if I am a generation after my parents, the way I was raised and educated at school leaves me with some sort of feeling of guilt. I don't like flying the German flag, I feel no connection to the Bavarian style folkloristic German stuff, I would never say "I am proud to be German" (we had a discussion about this on our Europe trip and my Dad and I tried to explain it to my hubs who is American, we agreed that it would be ok to say "I am happy to be German"). Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that Even though I think I never will.
Yeah I can see that in my parents. They were the ones to discover dirty secrets hidden from them by beloved relatives only to come out later and leading to a path of anger. I have a hard time dealing with the humourous / satirical way people from other countries are dealing with the nazis. To me it is no laughing matter. And even if I am a generation after my parents, the way I was raised and educated at school leaves me with some sort of feeling of guilt. I don't like flying the German flag, I feel no connection to the Bavarian style folkloristic German stuff, I would never say "I am proud to be German" (we had a discussion about this on our Europe trip and my Dad and I tried to explain it to my hubs who is American, we agreed that it would be ok to say "I am happy to be German"). Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that Even though I think I never will.
Patriotism is bullshit anyway!
Some would disagree!
True, and some of those end up with grandkids that are very embarassed by their nationalistic actions.
I always say where I am coming from. The fact that I feel awkward saying "I am proud to be German" does not mean that I am ashamed of where I come from. I am just aware of things and maybe a bit more sensitive when it comes to stuff like that. Because of where I am from
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Comments
Honestly, from the heart, fuck them all.
I guess for me - knowing all of this - he just...represents, personifies...that evil. The depraved twisted sick fuckedupness I'll never understand, nor forget.
I actually feel it's incumbent upon me to not forget.
Whew! Good post, Jenny. Brought out something in me, for sure.
But we have remembered A. H. long enough to build something new and better.
Anti-Jewish sentiment was massive at the time.
* I wish to say that I understand there were many Germans who placed themselves and their family at great risk helping Jews during that awful time. As well... the were many others that never truly understood the magnitude of what was happening.
I referred to other genocides... but to be clear... this one is the standard for cold, ruthless, and inhuman depravity. Factory genocide. Un-freaking-believable. As awful as all events of WWII were... exposing the events of the Holocaust shocked the most hardened of people.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
After seeing the film I got to thinking about this thread and how stories like these are so much more relevant (at least to my way of thinking) than fantasizing about going back into the past and killing a baby. In fact, in the film the Altmann character visits the art school that turned down a young Hitler and she says "I wish they hadn't." So if anything, maybe it is more useful to wish that Hitler's life had taken a different turn. Maybe if he had gone to art school he would have poured his angst and emotion into works of art rather than works of cruelty and human suffering. But in the end, any wishing about the past will not change the past. It seems to me restitution and learning from history are the most useful acts.
Brian, you keep trying to shoot down the game!
We just were in Amsterdam and visited the Anne Frank house. It was so haunting. I could not go through the concentration camp exhibition afterwards, it all became too much. If anyone ever can, go and see it, but order tickets before online. You can walk through the whole house and see the rooms they were hiding in. Darkened just as they were back then.
Fuck the brown shit, each and everyone of them. I would still kill a baby Hitler.
To this day, I don't get it. He wasn't the square jawed general with imposing biceps and good looks... he was kind of a rat like figure with the most ridiculous moustache in the history of moustaches. You would have thought people would have laughed at him instead of die for him.
A German teacher I had expressed his remorse to me one day mentioning it was his generation that carried the burden of guilt for what their parents had done. I never stopped to think about that aspect of the aftermath.
Whenever someone here in America hears that I am German, they come with all these Bavarian things. They are not part of my culture, I am from the East. I went to a German / Austrian event here a couple of years ago and almost threw up in my mouth a bit. Flags everywhere, the anthems playing, it felt like at a meeting of the NSDAP. I told my hubs that I have not been long enough away from Germany to appreciate or embrace any of that
Exterminate!
Everyone is still full of shit in saying that they would kill a baby, hitler or otherwise.
Yes some.
Not all.
He asks her, "What do you say when people ask 'are you Turkish?' "
Her: "Yes, but it's not my fault".
Made me think of this thread and how it's weaved its way.
At some point you have to stand up and say "this is where I am from"