Any discussion on the idiots in Montreal banning pitbulls?
I don't think there are very many people around here who are from Quebec ... the has been plenty of national coverage, but not terribly in depth coverage. The ban has been suspended by a judge temporarily though. No idea how long that is supposed to last or what's possibly going to happen during that suspension. But it's not like this is a Canadian first. There are a lot of cities/municipalities across the country that have their own bans or restrictions on pitbulls. It's big news this time because it's such a major population centre, but also because it seems they took it a step too far this time as far as enforcement goes (let alone the general controversy around the issue that we all know about).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Any discussion on the idiots in Montreal banning pitbulls?
I don't think there are very many people around here who are from Quebec around here... the has been plenty of national coverage, but not terribly in depth coverage. The ban has been suspended by a judge temporarily though. No idea how long that is supposed to last or what's possibly going to happen during that suspension. But it's not like this is a Canadian first. There are a lot of cities/municipalities across the country that have their own bans or restrictions on pitbulls. It's big news this time because it's such a major population centre, but also because it seems they took it a step too far this time as far as enforcement goes (let alone the general controversy around the issue that we all know about).
I just saw on the CBC news that a hearing is scheduled today into whether the bylaw banning pit bulls will be allowed to stand...so more be known by days end...maybe.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I've seen a lot of people posting on social media about driving over to rescue them.
Yeah, the reason it's big news when all the other local bans haven't been over the years is because the suddenness of the enforcement they decided upon is fucked and will presumably lead to putting some of the dogs down just because of new ban. Normally such efforts in Canada haven't lead to such a dramatic kind of enforcement. FWIW, while of course I don't support anything that leads to killing dogs or making them suffer, I do 100% acknowledge that the breed attracts the wrong kinds of owner en masse. I know, I know. There all kinds of great pitbull owners. But that doesn't erase the fact that the breed tends to draw the types who aren't good enough owners for pitbulls. And the only way I can see that trend ending is through breeding bans, and making the breed unavailable to people. However, I absolutely don't support any kind of regulations that are retroactive. No law should force people to surrender their dogs. I just wouldn't mind humane efforts to stem the availability of the breed going forward. Of course I accept that this is much more easily said than done because it could just grow an illegal breeding market, which would be horrible. BTW, I strongly oppose muzzle laws. I think it is better to phase out the breed than to go forward with muzzle enforcement. I think muzzles are cruel.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I've seen a lot of people posting on social media about driving over to rescue them.
Yeah, the reason it's big news when all the other local bans haven't been over the years is because the suddenness of the enforcement they decided upon is fucked and will presumably lead to putting some of the dogs down just because of new ban. Normally such efforts in Canada haven't lead to such a dramatic kind of enforcement. FWIW, while of course I don't support anything that leads to killing dogs or making them suffer, I do 100% acknowledge that the breed attracts the wrong kinds of owner en masse. I know, I know. There all kinds of great pitbull owners. But that doesn't erase the fact that the breed tends to draw the types who aren't good enough owners for pitbulls. And the only way I can see that trend ending is through breeding bans, and making the breed unavailable to people. However, I absolutely don't support any kind of regulations that are retroactive. No law should force people to surrender their dogs. I just wouldn't mind humane efforts to stem the availability of the breed going forward. Of course I accept that this is much more easily said than done because it could just grow an illegal breeding market, which would be horrible. BTW, I strongly oppose muzzle laws. I think it is better to phase out the breed than to go forward with muzzle enforcement. I think muzzles are cruel.
agreed, phase out the breed...poor owners make this a dangerous animal, very dangerous...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Start holding these shitty dog owners more responsible. If their dog hurts or kills someone and they are negligent, they should be held criminally responsible. Serious criminal charges too, like assault and manslaughter.
Start holding these shitty dog owners more responsible. If their dog hurts or kills someone and they are negligent, they should be held criminally responsible. Serious criminal charges too, like assault and manslaughter.
I think that seems quite a bit too late to be taking action. The types who raise viscous pitbulls wouldn't respond to this kind of tactic, so it wouldn't prevent any injuries or deaths. If anything, it would encourage these people to get a pit bull. The stronger the penalties, the more "badass" they're probably going to view the breed, which is why these idiots are attracted to the breed in the first place. This is why I think the only real solution to preventing these devastating attacks (due to the damage pitbulls can inflict) is phasing out the breed. Don't make it an option for people (without killing or harming any dogs of course). Then all these problems go away.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree that this breed and others need to go the way of the dodo bird, my comment would be just part of a solution. I have no idea if serious jail time would be a deterrent or not, would just like to think it would.
I agree that this breed and others need to go the way of the dodo bird, my comment would be just part of a solution. I have no idea if serious jail time would be a deterrent or not, would just like to think it would.
The reason I don't think it would be is because no pit bull owner will admit, even to themselves, that their dog will lose control and be one of the ones that tears someone's face off. All pit bulls owners, no matter how bad (excluding dog fighters I guess), will tell you that they've got their dog under control and that they are a good owner. Obviously many of them are or are potentially very wrong, but they don't think so. So with that belief, a sentencing deterrent would be seen by them as irrelevant (aside from the "badass" appeal factor).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
They didn't ban pit bulls....they banned 'pit bull type dogs'. Can't see how anything could go wrong with a law so loosely defined. Up to 30 breeds have the characteristics used to define bully-type breeds. Some dog owners inquiring whether their pets were affected were told a vet cert would suffice, others were told they need DNA testing. The city's lawyer literally used the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' line in an interview. Total crock of shit.
They didn't ban pit bulls....they banned 'pit bull type dogs'. Can't see how anything could go wrong with a law so loosely defined. Up to 30 breeds have the characteristics used to define bully-type breeds. Some dog owners inquiring whether their pets were affected were told a vet cert would suffice, others were told they need DNA testing. The city's lawyer literally used the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' line in an interview. Total crock of shit.
Yeah, true. That's pretty fucked up as well. Talk about a poorly made law. Were they hungover when they drew it up?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
In his ruling, Gouin said elements of the bylaw pertaining to the categorization of “pit bull-type dogs” are unclear. For that reason, the temporary suspension he ordered on Monday will remain in effect.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Any discussion on the idiots in Montreal banning pitbulls?
A good call.
A few children have had their faces chewed off and they finally figured that was enough children getting their faces chewed off.
Too much dog for many simple bastards to try and raise responsibly. In general, people are too stupid and too inept to carry such a responsibility responsibly. Pomeranians and chihuahaus are nice pets. I know they don't increase the size of your pecker, but they're loving, cute and offer people household companionship all the same without having to worry about your beast shredding a child or eating an old lady.
blatant trolling, but I'll take the bait.... We are all aware of your history with dogs…..it sucks, but constantly throwing around generalizations about bully breed owners and making off the cuff statements about what constitutes a good pet and what doesn’t makes it pretty tough to take you seriously. People don’t have dogs as pets for the sole purpose of being a lap dog. Haven’t seen many pom guard dogs, hunting dogs, hiking companions, herders etc….not to mention personal preference for or against certain traits. Funny you mention chihuahuas....they have possibly the worst temperament of any breed. oh, but their bite doesn't do much damage right? Sure...but they are far from loving when compared to other dogs, and while cute is in the eye of the beholder, I don't define them that way...esp not compared to some of the breeds you want banned. I’m curious which breeds those would be? Is a Rottweiler a pit-bull-type-dog in your estimation? How about a boxer? Mastiff? Bull terrier? How about any of the above, if mixed with a lab? What percentage of lab genes would they need to spare them from being banned? German shepherds aren’t a bully breed but have a pretty spotty history of attacks, should we support doggy genocide against them? The problem with these laws, as mentioned above (and ignored), is that they are based on blood lines, so almost impossible to clearly define and enforce.
Ok....so....where does that leave us? Will you ban based on individual bite psi? Or breed average bite psi?
Not individual, obviously. I think at some point generalizations need to be made, so sure, breed average makes sense IMO. Someone just needs to be bright enough to pick a reasonable limit.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Still way too simplified. We'd be banning bulldogs and pretty much all giant breeds regardless of temperament. And again...how do you determine an acceptable percentage of genetic composition for the law, and for individual dogs without dna testing? There is no just way to ban a breed. I'm onboard for increased regulation, especially of breeders... But be ready for a lot of legal challenges and either exorbitant enforcement costs, or a total lack of enforcement.
Still way too simplified. We'd be banning bulldogs and pretty much all giant breeds regardless of temperament. And again...how do you determine an acceptable percentage of genetic composition for the law, and for individual dogs without dna testing? There is no just way to ban a breed. I'm onboard for increased regulation, especially of breeders... But be ready for a lot of legal challenges and either exorbitant enforcement costs, or a total lack of enforcement.
I'm not a law maker or a dog owner, so I have no idea. I don't have a horse in the race, and to be honest, I think going overboard is better than not going far enough, as long as it doesn't result in people having to surrender pets that have never harmed anyone or in dogs having to be muzzled (leaving a breeding and buying ban as the only decent option). But yeah okay, you're right. Make it potential damage + actual attack stats. Considering that combo of factors should take care of the damage vs temperament problem. With that, just make a list of breeds that fall under a certain reasonable amount of risk. As for mutts.... no idea. I'd say the only decent option there is to say that if a dog is 50% or more of one of the banned breeds they're included. I say that because 50% is probably the minimum amount that is going to be easy to determine, since most people at least know the parentage of their dog. So if it comes from one 100% parent or two 50% parents, banned. Just a thought.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have a black lab companion, sweetest most unagreesive friendliest dog ever ... those small dogs are the worst, a lot of them constantly bark when strangers are around and often behave aggressively, how do I know? I used to take my dog to a dog park, usually the larger breed dogs just play amongst each, those rat dogs just bark at people and on more than one occasion I've seen these dogs nip at other l dogs including my own that still bears the wound...so size is absolutely not a determining factor.
I think dignin is right, hold the owners criminally responsible. When walking my dog I usually take extra care when near people, it's more about responsible dog companship. It also would be nice if people learned how to approach dogs and if dogs bother you walk around them not just past them, people can take some responsibility as well to avoid a confrontation.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I also am not a fan of those little yappy dogs at all. For me, the bigger the better, lol. I would never consider a tiny dog. I'd rather have a cat. When I do get a dog (this won't be until I retire - I don't have the right lifestyle to take proper care of a dog now), I'd be looking at labra-doodles or golden-doodles (love the non-shedding factor of the large poodle crosses), or maybe a Burnese Mountain Dog, or a chocolate lab, or maybe an Irish Setter. Or a Saint Bernard would be great. Drools a lot and supposedly hard to train, but that's okay if I'm retired. I also love Basset Hounds, but they have more health issues. I would go for a Great Dane, but their lifespans are just too short. Anyway, whatever breed I choose, will do plenty of research first, and temperament and attack vs damage stats would be one consideration.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Getting closer. But how will you prove parentage? I hate it when people question me the way I'm questioning you now, as if having an opinion means you should have all the answers lol....I don't expect that, but I think running through some of these questions shows how complex the issue is. I honestly think this gets blown way out of proportion by the media because they know how strongly people feel about it. Dog attacks should be pretty low on the priority scale of law making and social spending. I know victims don't want to hear that. But when you consider how underfunded other enforcement or social issues are, this one doesn't deserve the focus it gets.
Half the breeds you just mentioned would be banned under your bite force and temperament / attack ratio criteria. You want a Cujo ffs! Haha..
Getting closer. But how will you prove parentage? I hate it when people question me the way I'm questioning you now, as if having an opinion means you should have all the answers lol....I don't expect that, but I think running through some of these questions shows how complex the issue is. I honestly think this gets blown way out of proportion by the media because they know how strongly people feel about it. Dog attacks should be pretty low on the priority scale of law making and social spending. I know victims don't want to hear that. But when you consider how underfunded other enforcement or social issues are, this one doesn't deserve the focus it gets.
Half the breeds you just mentioned would be banned under your bite force and temperament / attack ratio criteria. You want a Cujo ffs! Haha..
Lol. Nooo, none of those breeds I mentioned would qualify I don't think, because of temperament. Especially not Cujo! Those are known to have a very passive temperament, as they are rescue dogs... but yeah, if they do happen to attack they certainly can cause a lot of damage. Btw, I would probably name it Rowlf.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Some of you people defending the right to own a dangerous breed sound exactly like the gun nuts that defend their right to an AR-15.
A chihuahua chews on my leg... I laugh. A bull mastiff chews on my leg- like 'Cookie' the big mutant that did so as I mountain biked- it doesn't feel very good.
Hey... fine. Have your dogs. And look the other way or dismiss child maulings that happen virtually every week across Canada because... like... that's that guy's dog (not mine).
Some of you people defending the right to own a dangerous breed sound exactly like the gun nuts that defend their right to an AR-15.
A chihuahua chews on my leg... I laugh. A bull mastiff chews on my leg- like 'Cookie' the big mutant that did so as I mountain biked- it doesn't feel very good.
Hey... fine. Have your dogs. And look the other way or dismiss child maulings that happen virtually every week across Canada because... like... that's that guy's dog (not mine).
I assume I'm not one of "you people", lol, but anyway, I support breed bans if reasonable and if done right. I couldn't care less if some stupid yappy little fuck of a dog tends to bite either. Give it a kick and go put some polysporin on it. I agree that preventing maulings (child or otherwise) need to be the priority, not letting people have whatever dog breed. I couldn't care less if someone can't legally get some breed of dog that they happen to like. Just get some other breed. It shouldn't matter that much. That is definitely at the very bottom of the priority list IMO. However, you need to make clear laws around it and make them doable, and that is where Montreal has obviously failed, so I get the frustration about that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The idea behind the movement towards public safety is solid in my opinion; however, I agree with you, PJSoul, that the terminology and parameters needs work.
By the way... I came across an orphaned cougar kitten and I just love it. You should see how affectionate it is. I want to keep it as a pet. It's my right. And don't worry everybody... it's gentle. It wouldn't hurt a fly.
Was reading the Calgary cop piece Dignin submitted in the cop abuse thread and directly underneath it was this little bit about some scumbag getting five years for repeatedly raping and tormenting an 11 year old.
F**king scumbag child molester needs death actually. Canada's justice system which is defended so vociferously here by some has... yet again... proven to be soft. Pathetic actually.
Was reading the Calgary cop piece Dignin submitted in the cop abuse thread and directly underneath it was this little bit about some scumbag getting five years for repeatedly raping and tormenting an 11 year old.
F**king scumbag child molester needs death actually. Canada's justice system which is defended so vociferously here by some has... yet again... proven to be soft. Pathetic actually.
The stream of nonsense never ends.
F**k. Ing. Soft.
Agreed...you can barely go a week a week without reading another wtf moment in Canadian justice.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Comments
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Can't see how anything could go wrong with a law so loosely defined. Up to 30 breeds have the characteristics used to define bully-type breeds. Some dog owners inquiring whether their pets were affected were told a vet cert would suffice, others were told they need DNA testing.
The city's lawyer literally used the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' line in an interview.
Total crock of shit.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://montrealgazette.com/storyline/judge-suspends-montreals-pit-bull-ban
In his ruling, Gouin said elements of the bylaw pertaining to the categorization of “pit bull-type dogs” are unclear. For that reason, the temporary suspension he ordered on Monday will remain in effect.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
A few children have had their faces chewed off and they finally figured that was enough children getting their faces chewed off.
Too much dog for many simple bastards to try and raise responsibly. In general, people are too stupid and too inept to carry such a responsibility responsibly. Pomeranians and chihuahaus are nice pets. I know they don't increase the size of your pecker, but they're loving, cute and offer people household companionship all the same without having to worry about your beast shredding a child or eating an old lady.
We are all aware of your history with dogs…..it sucks, but constantly throwing around generalizations about bully breed owners and making off the cuff statements about what constitutes a good pet and what doesn’t makes it pretty tough to take you seriously.
People don’t have dogs as pets for the sole purpose of being a lap dog. Haven’t seen many pom guard dogs, hunting dogs, hiking companions, herders etc….not to mention personal preference for or against certain traits.
Funny you mention chihuahuas....they have possibly the worst temperament of any breed. oh, but their bite doesn't do much damage right? Sure...but they are far from loving when compared to other dogs, and while cute is in the eye of the beholder, I don't define them that way...esp not compared to some of the breeds you want banned.
I’m curious which breeds those would be? Is a Rottweiler a pit-bull-type-dog in your estimation? How about a boxer? Mastiff? Bull terrier? How about any of the above, if mixed with a lab? What percentage of lab genes would they need to spare them from being banned? German shepherds aren’t a bully breed but have a pretty spotty history of attacks, should we support doggy genocide against them?
The problem with these laws, as mentioned above (and ignored), is that they are based on blood lines, so almost impossible to clearly define and enforce.
And again...how do you determine an acceptable percentage of genetic composition for the law, and for individual dogs without dna testing?
There is no just way to ban a breed. I'm onboard for increased regulation, especially of breeders... But be ready for a lot of legal challenges and either exorbitant enforcement costs, or a total lack of enforcement.
I think dignin is right, hold the owners criminally responsible. When walking my dog I usually take extra care when near people, it's more about responsible dog companship. It also would be nice if people learned how to approach dogs and if dogs bother you walk around them not just past them, people can take some responsibility as well to avoid a confrontation.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I hate it when people question me the way I'm questioning you now, as if having an opinion means you should have all the answers lol....I don't expect that, but I think running through some of these questions shows how complex the issue is. I honestly think this gets blown way out of proportion by the media because they know how strongly people feel about it. Dog attacks should be pretty low on the priority scale of law making and social spending.
I know victims don't want to hear that. But when you consider how underfunded other enforcement or social issues are, this one doesn't deserve the focus it gets.
Half the breeds you just mentioned would be banned under your bite force and temperament / attack ratio criteria. You want a Cujo ffs! Haha..
A chihuahua chews on my leg... I laugh. A bull mastiff chews on my leg- like 'Cookie' the big mutant that did so as I mountain biked- it doesn't feel very good.
Hey... fine. Have your dogs. And look the other way or dismiss child maulings that happen virtually every week across Canada because... like... that's that guy's dog (not mine).
By the way... I came across an orphaned cougar kitten and I just love it. You should see how affectionate it is. I want to keep it as a pet. It's my right. And don't worry everybody... it's gentle. It wouldn't hurt a fly.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/christopher-butt-sexual-assault-rape-1.3792748
Five years.
F**king scumbag child molester needs death actually. Canada's justice system which is defended so vociferously here by some has... yet again... proven to be soft. Pathetic actually.
The stream of nonsense never ends.
F**k. Ing. Soft.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon