It's very objective, written by a scholar, and begins under the same premise you present.
Trust me. I am as mortified as any with regards to the atrocities war presents us. The SS were as bad as it gets, but there was a method to the madness.
With references to multiple psychological and sociological experiments and studies.. the book offers an explanation as to why ordinary men do unordinary things. It doesn't seek to absolve them.
There's another book around the same vein, except it's focused on the homeland and how the ordinary German people knew what was happening to the Jews and were complicit. It's called "Hitler's Willing Executioners", by Daniel Goldhagen, a Harvard professor. It's very controversial but a powerful read. Many historians disagree with his conclusions though.
Sorry to ramble, but I also had a German professor one year and we were studying the Eastern front. He and his family were part of the group that was forced from Danzig (Gdansk) after the war and the Poles/Soviets took back the port city. He had some horrific stories about the migration back to Germany after the war. Anyway, something he said stuck with me, and that is that the German people are still capable of the sort of "compliance" referred to earlier. It's embedded so deeply in their culture. This was 1995 or so. Things may be different today and I'm not trying to offend anyone. it's just something he believed. He must be 75 now, if still alive.
I think it's in nearly every culture, certainly ours included.
Humans are pretty weak, it's sad how sometimes the strength of a person is eliminated rather than multiplied when in herds.
Sorry to ramble, but I also had a German professor one year and we were studying the Eastern front. He and his family were part of the group that was forced from Danzig (Gdansk) after the war and the Poles/Soviets took back the port city. He had some horrific stories about the migration back to Germany after the war. Anyway, something he said stuck with me, and that is that the German people are still capable of the sort of "compliance" referred to earlier. It's embedded so deeply in their culture. This was 1995 or so. Things may be different today and I'm not trying to offend anyone. it's just something he believed. He must be 75 now, if still alive.
I think it's in nearly every culture, certainly ours included.
Humans are pretty weak, it's sad how sometimes the strength of a person is eliminated rather than multiplied when in herds.
That's an excellent point. Herd mentality is real.
Has anyone visited any WWII sites? I'm thinking of trying to visit a few next year, mainly in France. Would appreciate advice from anyone who has been, would be a big help as I look into logistics...
WWII is such a fascinating subject. Both of my grandfathers fought in it & I got to hear some interesting stories before they passed on. One of the stories from that time that stands out for me, was one told to me from my child's 3rd grade teacher at a parent teacher conference. (She had just lost her father the previous month.) Her father was from Italy. She said that her uncle was an allied soldier. When Hitler's army had gained control of the area her father's family was from, they did house to house searches for "enemies". Her uncle had to hide in the rafters several different times for long periods of time because they knew he fought for the other side & kept checking for him & threatening harm to the family. After the war was over her uncle, because of his service was able to relocate here to the US. He was able to bring along his brother (both unmarried at the time). She said if they had found her uncle she wouldn't be here. She had me on the edge of my seat!
The best WWII site I have ever seen was a warship. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA was a great lesson in history. The gentleman who gave us the tour was a veteran of WWII & served on the ship. The ship had taken Kamikaze hits. He was there! He told us the stories of that, the STD toilet, and so much more. Since he was a black service man of that time his jobs were different & his perspective was, too. We spent over 3 hours on that ship that day! I still think of him & his stories. He was such a great storyteller I wish he could have written a book.
WWII is such a fascinating subject. Both of my grandfathers fought in it & I got to hear some interesting stories before they passed on. One of the stories from that time that stands out for me, was one told to me from my child's 3rd grade teacher at a parent teacher conference. (She had just lost her father the previous month.) Her father was from Italy. She said that her uncle was an allied soldier. When Hitler's army had gained control of the area her father's family was from, they did house to house searches for "enemies". Her uncle had to hide in the rafters several different times for long periods of time because they knew he fought for the other side & kept checking for him & threatening harm to the family. After the war was over her uncle, because of his service was able to relocate here to the US. He was able to bring along his brother (both unmarried at the time). She said if they had found her uncle she wouldn't be here. She had me on the edge of my seat!
The best WWII site I have ever seen was a warship. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA was a great lesson in history. The gentleman who gave us the tour was a veteran of WWII & served on the ship. The ship had taken Kamikaze hits. He was there! He told us the stories of that, the STD toilet, and so much more. Since he was a black service man of that time his jobs were different & his perspective was, too. We spent over 3 hours on that ship that day! I still think of him & his stories. He was such a great storyteller I wish he could have written a book.
Some of the research I did had a Bataan trip - you went to Corregidor and toured that and went (on a bus) to see the death march and then there were tours of some of the POW camps.
Some of the research I did had a Bataan trip - you went to Corregidor and toured that and went (on a bus) to see the death march and then there were tours of some of the POW camps.
I saw fury today and all I can say is wow! I would definitely recommend it! I thought it was great and pretty realistic.
What's Fury about or when and where is it set?
I'm watching a documentary about the 333rd Field Artillery Batallion, a black unit who fought through D-Day and Bastogne. An awful story of 11 of them being tortured and murdered by the SS (the Wereth 11)
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
Did Churchill not hear about the Katyn massacre then?! Let's face it, the Allies had just had enough of the war and decided to leave Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Soviets, who by all accounts were just as brutal as the Nazis as they made their way through Europe
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
Did Churchill not hear about the Katyn massacre then?! Let's face it, the Allies had just had enough of the war and decided to leave Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Soviets, who by all accounts were just as brutal as the Nazis as they made their way through Europe
Remember the yalta conference was held in feb 45. No one realized the extent of the holocaust at this time or even soviet crimes since so many more were committed between then and the end of the war. I doubt Churchill or fdr knew about the Katyn massacre or even cared about it when deciding about eastern Europe. Some U.S. generals (famously Patton) wanted to beat the germans then start fighting the Russians right away.
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
Did Churchill not hear about the Katyn massacre then?! Let's face it, the Allies had just had enough of the war and decided to leave Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Soviets, who by all accounts were just as brutal as the Nazis as they made their way through Europe
Remember the yalta conference was held in feb 45. No one realized the extent of the holocaust at this time or even soviet crimes since so many more were committed between then and the end of the war. I doubt Churchill or fdr knew about the Katyn massacre or even cared about it when deciding about eastern Europe. Some U.S. generals (famously Patton) wanted to beat the germans then start fighting the Russians right away.
There are also a lot of stories about captured Germans saying to the Americans and Brits that they should all be uniting to fight the Russians
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
Did Churchill not hear about the Katyn massacre then?! Let's face it, the Allies had just had enough of the war and decided to leave Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Soviets, who by all accounts were just as brutal as the Nazis as they made their way through Europe
Remember the yalta conference was held in feb 45. No one realized the extent of the holocaust at this time or even soviet crimes since so many more were committed between then and the end of the war. I doubt Churchill or fdr knew about the Katyn massacre or even cared about it when deciding about eastern Europe. Some U.S. generals (famously Patton) wanted to beat the germans then start fighting the Russians right away.
There are also a lot of stories about captured Germans saying to the Americans and Brits that they should all be uniting to fight the Russians
Yup! And what s even crazier is we hire thousands of nazis to help us beat the soviet Union during the cold war. We pretty much pardon them of all their war time crimes in exchange for them working for us. Hell the guy who basically put us on the moon was the nazi who was pretty much in charge of either v1 or v2 rockets. Google "operation paper clip" bud.
Im not sure if Katyn was known then, but 30 Polish officers and soldiers commited suicide upon learning of the deal. I dont know the timing of the events.
The Soviets were strong and gaining strength. Allies were worried about losing the racw to Berlin. Churchill was naive but in the fog of war, things that seem obvious a half century later were not as clear.
So let me see if I've got this right. Britain entered the war upon the invasion of Poland, determined to protect Poland's sovereignty, only to then abandon them to Soviet occupation. I know this is pretty old news but the mind boggles
That's the enduring controversy of Yalta. Churchill believed stalin would allow free elections.
Churchill clearly not as bright as people thought!
I think he trusted Stalin too much and fdr was pretty gone at this point so he wasn't as sharp as he was.
Did Churchill not hear about the Katyn massacre then?! Let's face it, the Allies had just had enough of the war and decided to leave Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Soviets, who by all accounts were just as brutal as the Nazis as they made their way through Europe
Remember the yalta conference was held in feb 45. No one realized the extent of the holocaust at this time or even soviet crimes since so many more were committed between then and the end of the war. I doubt Churchill or fdr knew about the Katyn massacre or even cared about it when deciding about eastern Europe. Some U.S. generals (famously Patton) wanted to beat the germans then start fighting the Russians right away.
There are also a lot of stories about captured Germans saying to the Americans and Brits that they should all be uniting to fight the Russians
Yup! And what s even crazier is we hire thousands of nazis to help us beat the soviet Union during the cold war. We pretty much pardon them of all their war time crimes in exchange for them working for us. Hell the guy who basically put us on the moon was the nazi who was pretty much in charge of either v1 or v2 rockets. Google "operation paper clip" bud.
Some German officers believed that this unified front would happen once the Nazi leadership was deposed. But we still had Japan. Also, think of the devastation of a ground war against the Soviets. There would have been no appetite on any homefront for five more years of war.
So I've been reading a brilliant book by Stephen Ambrose called 'Citizen Soldiers'. He gives fantastic accounts from frontline soldiers on both sides and there are some great stories, so I thought I might share a couple with ye that made an impression on me (however small an event)...
Even in the bloody chaos of Falaise, a humane spirit could come over these young men so far from home. Lt. Hans-Heinrich Dibbern, of Panzer Grenadier Regiment 902, set up a roadblock outside Argenten. "From the direction of the American line came an ambulance driving towards us", he remembered. "The driver was obviously lost. When he noticed that he was behind German lines, he slammed on the brakes." Dibbern went to the ambulance. "The driver's face was completely white. He had wounded men he was responsible for. But we told him, 'back out of here and get going - we don't attack the Red Cross'. He quickly disappeared."
An hour or so later, "here comes another Red Cross truck. It pulls up right in front of us. The driver got out, opened the back and took out a crate. He set it down on the street and drove away. We feared a bomb, but nothing happened and we were curious. We opened the box and it was filled with Chesterfield cigarettes."
- Hans-Heinrich Dibbern interview by Hugh Ambrose
Ambrose is my favorite author. Read the victors next.
Reading the Victors now, brilliantly done, so fascinating to read all the firsthand accounts and the experiences of different soldiers
Comments
Thanks.
Humans are pretty weak, it's sad how sometimes the strength of a person is eliminated rather than multiplied when in herds.
The best WWII site I have ever seen was a warship. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA was a great lesson in history. The gentleman who gave us the tour was a veteran of WWII & served on the ship. The ship had taken Kamikaze hits. He was there! He told us the stories of that, the STD toilet, and so much more. Since he was a black service man of that time his jobs were different & his perspective was, too. We spent over 3 hours on that ship that day! I still think of him & his stories. He was such a great storyteller I wish he could have written a book.
Thought this was a nice story today
http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-ww2-veteran-award-2435395-Nov2015/?utm_source=facebook_short
I've only been to Pearl Harbor. And that was pretty shattering. Very moving.
I'd like to see this - http://www.iwm.org.uk/visits/churchill-war-rooms
Someday, I hope to visit Theriesenstadt, where my paternal grandmother died. Her husband lived to see freedom.
I'm watching a documentary about the 333rd Field Artillery Batallion, a black unit who fought through D-Day and Bastogne. An awful story of 11 of them being tortured and murdered by the SS (the Wereth 11)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/07/wereth-black-soldiers-battle-of-bulge-army-world-war-ii-history/3465059/
But good show for sure.
Tanks. Pretty handy.
Some U.S. generals (famously Patton) wanted to beat the germans then start fighting the Russians right away.
The Soviets were strong and gaining strength. Allies were worried about losing the racw to Berlin. Churchill was naive but in the fog of war, things that seem obvious a half century later were not as clear.