WWII

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  • Enkidu
    Enkidu So Cal Posts: 2,996
    mrussel1 said:

    Enkidu said:

    mrussel1 said:

    Enkidu said:

    Whoops, I meant KL. Here's the link. (I just reread Fatherland by Robert Harris and he uses KZ for concentration camps, whoops.) http://www.amazon.com/KL-History-Nazi-Concentration-Camps/dp/0374118256/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446841545&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=kz+history+of+concentration+camps

    Fatherland... what a fascinating premise and great book. HBO did a move with Rutger Hauer. It was okay. Maybe it was very good, but it paled against the book.
    Fatherland is just an awesome book. It's fiction, it's a mystery/thriller, but he's such a good writer and knows his stuff. A simple, but chilling premise - what if Hitler had won the war?

    Agree - the movie was okay, but the book is great.
    I went on a Robert Harris binge a few years ago. I read the Cicero novels, Imperium, Conspirata, and there was one more that escapes me. They were very, very good. If you haven't read, definitely pick them up.
    I am a total Robert Harris freak. I think I've read everything - I hadn't read Enigma and read that recently. An Officer and a Spy is great too. Ad the 3rd Cicero novel comes out soon - oh, unless it's out in England and I could get it already...
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    mrussel1 said:

    Thanks! They led full lives. And Ambrose was a tremendous mainstream historian. Did a great job of popularizing what many feel is a dry subject. Doris Kearns Goodwin is in the same camp.

    It sounds like there's a huge volume of interviews etc at the Eisenhower Centre in Louisiana, well worth a visit I'd say
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    edited November 2015
    Watching "Hitler's Death Army: Das Reich". Horrifying footage of mass executions across France, Poland, Belarus and the Ukraine and the resulting mass graves. Further footage of them burning barns in which they had locked the women and children of villages and sprayed with machine gun fire. For a few men like Hitler, Himmler etc to have such evil in their hearts in just about believable but for so many German soldiers to be capable of such inhumanity is terrifying

    Watching this, I can understand why there was a policy of killing SS soldiers rather than taking them prisoner
    Post edited by jnimhaoileoin on
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    jnimhaoileoin said:

    Watching "Hitler's Death Army: Das Reich". Horrifying footage of mass executions across France, Poland, Belarus and the Ukraine and the resulting mass graves. Further footage of them burning barns in which they had locked the women and children of villages and sprayed with machine gun fire. For a few men like Hitler, Himmler etc to have such evil in their hearts in just about believable but for so many German soldiers to be capable of such inhumanity is terrifying

    Watching this, I can understand why there was a policy of killing SS soldiers rather than taking them prisoner

    You want to read a good book on why these men did what they did?

    Ordinary Men.

    They were everyday people like you and me. Conditions were such that they fell into full compliance mode. I'm not talking about the architects- I'm talking about the people on the ground and in the front.

    Disclaimer: no excuses. Just speaking to your questioning.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    edited November 2015
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    jnimhaoileoin said:

    Watching "Hitler's Death Army: Das Reich". Horrifying footage of mass executions across France, Poland, Belarus and the Ukraine and the resulting mass graves. Further footage of them burning barns in which they had locked the women and children of villages and sprayed with machine gun fire. For a few men like Hitler, Himmler etc to have such evil in their hearts in just about believable but for so many German soldiers to be capable of such inhumanity is terrifying

    Watching this, I can understand why there was a policy of killing SS soldiers rather than taking them prisoner

    You want to read a good book on why these men did what they did?

    Ordinary Men.

    They were everyday people like you and me. Conditions were such that they fell into full compliance mode. I'm not talking about the architects- I'm talking about the people on the ground and in the front.

    Disclaimer: no excuses. Just speaking to your questioning.
    Surely there are limits to compliance?? At Oradour-sur-Glane they massacred an entire village. They locked 500 women and children in a church and set it on fire. Anyone who tried to get out was riddled with bullets. Only one woman survived and witnessed so many others being burned alive. Who with any humanity could do such things??? I suppose the only claim of defence any of them could have is that they believed that if they disobeyed orders they would be killed themselves. The instinct for self-preservation is the only thing I could understand
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Check the book out.

    It's very objective, written by a scholar, and begins under the same premise you present.

    Trust me. I am as mortified as any with regards to the atrocities war presents us. The SS were as bad as it gets, but there was a method to the madness.

    With references to multiple psychological and sociological experiments and studies.. the book offers an explanation as to why ordinary men do unordinary things. It doesn't seek to absolve them.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,922
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Check the book out.

    It's very objective, written by a scholar, and begins under the same premise you present.

    Trust me. I am as mortified as any with regards to the atrocities war presents us. The SS were as bad as it gets, but there was a method to the madness.

    With references to multiple psychological and sociological experiments and studies.. the book offers an explanation as to why ordinary men do unordinary things. It doesn't seek to absolve them.

    There's another book around the same vein, except it's focused on the homeland and how the ordinary German people knew what was happening to the Jews and were complicit. It's called "Hitler's Willing Executioners", by Daniel Goldhagen, a Harvard professor. It's very controversial but a powerful read. Many historians disagree with his conclusions though.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,922
    Sorry to ramble, but I also had a German professor one year and we were studying the Eastern front. He and his family were part of the group that was forced from Danzig (Gdansk) after the war and the Poles/Soviets took back the port city. He had some horrific stories about the migration back to Germany after the war. Anyway, something he said stuck with me, and that is that the German people are still capable of the sort of "compliance" referred to earlier. It's embedded so deeply in their culture. This was 1995 or so. Things may be different today and I'm not trying to offend anyone. it's just something he believed. He must be 75 now, if still alive.
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Check the book out.

    It's very objective, written by a scholar, and begins under the same premise you present.

    Trust me. I am as mortified as any with regards to the atrocities war presents us. The SS were as bad as it gets, but there was a method to the madness.

    With references to multiple psychological and sociological experiments and studies.. the book offers an explanation as to why ordinary men do unordinary things. It doesn't seek to absolve them.

    Will have a look, do you know who wrote it?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/647492.Ordinary_Men
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    mrussel1 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Check the book out.

    It's very objective, written by a scholar, and begins under the same premise you present.

    Trust me. I am as mortified as any with regards to the atrocities war presents us. The SS were as bad as it gets, but there was a method to the madness.

    With references to multiple psychological and sociological experiments and studies.. the book offers an explanation as to why ordinary men do unordinary things. It doesn't seek to absolve them.

    There's another book around the same vein, except it's focused on the homeland and how the ordinary German people knew what was happening to the Jews and were complicit. It's called "Hitler's Willing Executioners", by Daniel Goldhagen, a Harvard professor. It's very controversial but a powerful read. Many historians disagree with his conclusions though.
    I'll check this out.

    Thanks.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    mrussel1 said:

    Sorry to ramble, but I also had a German professor one year and we were studying the Eastern front. He and his family were part of the group that was forced from Danzig (Gdansk) after the war and the Poles/Soviets took back the port city. He had some horrific stories about the migration back to Germany after the war. Anyway, something he said stuck with me, and that is that the German people are still capable of the sort of "compliance" referred to earlier. It's embedded so deeply in their culture. This was 1995 or so. Things may be different today and I'm not trying to offend anyone. it's just something he believed. He must be 75 now, if still alive.

    I think it's in nearly every culture, certainly ours included.

    Humans are pretty weak, it's sad how sometimes the strength of a person is eliminated rather than multiplied when in herds.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,922
    rgambs said:

    mrussel1 said:

    Sorry to ramble, but I also had a German professor one year and we were studying the Eastern front. He and his family were part of the group that was forced from Danzig (Gdansk) after the war and the Poles/Soviets took back the port city. He had some horrific stories about the migration back to Germany after the war. Anyway, something he said stuck with me, and that is that the German people are still capable of the sort of "compliance" referred to earlier. It's embedded so deeply in their culture. This was 1995 or so. Things may be different today and I'm not trying to offend anyone. it's just something he believed. He must be 75 now, if still alive.

    I think it's in nearly every culture, certainly ours included.

    Humans are pretty weak, it's sad how sometimes the strength of a person is eliminated rather than multiplied when in herds.
    That's an excellent point. Herd mentality is real.
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,146
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/647492.Ordinary_Men

    I m gonna have to check this one out as well. Thanks for the suggestion thirty!
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    mcgruff10 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/647492.Ordinary_Men

    I m gonna have to check this one out as well. Thanks for the suggestion thirty!
    No problems muchacho!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Has anyone visited any WWII sites? I'm thinking of trying to visit a few next year, mainly in France. Would appreciate advice from anyone who has been, would be a big help as I look into logistics...
  • xhausted1
    xhausted1 Posts: 126
    WWII is such a fascinating subject. Both of my grandfathers fought in it & I got to hear some interesting stories before they passed on. One of the stories from that time that stands out for me, was one told to me from my child's 3rd grade teacher at a parent teacher conference. (She had just lost her father the previous month.) Her father was from Italy. She said that her uncle was an allied soldier. When Hitler's army had gained control of the area her father's family was from, they did house to house searches for "enemies". Her uncle had to hide in the rafters several different times for long periods of time because they knew he fought for the other side & kept checking for him & threatening harm to the family. After the war was over her uncle, because of his service was able to relocate here to the US. He was able to bring along his brother (both unmarried at the time). She said if they had found her uncle she wouldn't be here. She had me on the edge of my seat!

    The best WWII site I have ever seen was a warship. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA was a great lesson in history. The gentleman who gave us the tour was a veteran of WWII & served on the ship. The ship had taken Kamikaze hits. He was there! He told us the stories of that, the STD toilet, and so much more. Since he was a black service man of that time his jobs were different & his perspective was, too. We spent over 3 hours on that ship that day! I still think of him & his stories. He was such a great storyteller I wish he could have written a book.
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    edited November 2015
    xhausted1 said:

    WWII is such a fascinating subject. Both of my grandfathers fought in it & I got to hear some interesting stories before they passed on. One of the stories from that time that stands out for me, was one told to me from my child's 3rd grade teacher at a parent teacher conference. (She had just lost her father the previous month.) Her father was from Italy. She said that her uncle was an allied soldier. When Hitler's army had gained control of the area her father's family was from, they did house to house searches for "enemies". Her uncle had to hide in the rafters several different times for long periods of time because they knew he fought for the other side & kept checking for him & threatening harm to the family. After the war was over her uncle, because of his service was able to relocate here to the US. He was able to bring along his brother (both unmarried at the time). She said if they had found her uncle she wouldn't be here. She had me on the edge of my seat!

    The best WWII site I have ever seen was a warship. The USS Kidd in Baton Rouge, LA was a great lesson in history. The gentleman who gave us the tour was a veteran of WWII & served on the ship. The ship had taken Kamikaze hits. He was there! He told us the stories of that, the STD toilet, and so much more. Since he was a black service man of that time his jobs were different & his perspective was, too. We spent over 3 hours on that ship that day! I still think of him & his stories. He was such a great storyteller I wish he could have written a book.

    Thanks for sharing :)

    Thought this was a nice story today

    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-ww2-veteran-award-2435395-Nov2015/?utm_source=facebook_short
    Post edited by jnimhaoileoin on
  • Enkidu
    Enkidu So Cal Posts: 2,996
    I would love to take a tour. I was actually doing research for a book and there's a character who goes on both Europe and Pacific WWII tour groups - here's one I found: http://www.beyondbandofbrothers.com/?gclid=Cj0KEQiAyIayBRDo4vjdqJrgxZ0BEiQAhOYCYOuJj4wzPBSYd21b7ApmTeQYNIqwTwQPnwcFbju92VUaAt518P8HAQ

    I've only been to Pearl Harbor. And that was pretty shattering. Very moving.

    image
  • jnimhaoileoin
    jnimhaoileoin Baile Átha Cliath Posts: 2,682
    Enkidu said:

    I would love to take a tour. I was actually doing research for a book and there's a character who goes on both Europe and Pacific WWII tour groups - here's one I found: http://www.beyondbandofbrothers.com/?gclid=Cj0KEQiAyIayBRDo4vjdqJrgxZ0BEiQAhOYCYOuJj4wzPBSYd21b7ApmTeQYNIqwTwQPnwcFbju92VUaAt518P8HAQ

    I've only been to Pearl Harbor. And that was pretty shattering. Very moving.

    image

    Eek that's a bit pricey for me but cheers anyway ;)

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