Migrants rushing Europian Borders

2456789

Comments

  • I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited September 2015

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    I would change what you said just slightly, because I think they still care at least a bit if asylum seekers are not American, as long as they are white. :confounded:
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    I would change what you said just slightly, because I think they still care at least a bit if asylum seekers are not American, as long as they are white. :confounded:
    to them, these people are all sponges, sucking up money and resources.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594

    PJ_Soul said:

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    I would change what you said just slightly, because I think they still care at least a bit if asylum seekers are not American, as long as they are white. :confounded:
    to them, these people are all sponges, sucking up money and resources.
    That rightfully belong to the corporations and the wealthy
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_Soul said:

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    I would change what you said just slightly, because I think they still care at least a bit if asylum seekers are not American, as long as they are white. :confounded:
    I wonder what percentage of asylum seekers in recent history are white....

    There are 60 million refugees and internally displaced people in the world right now - more than at any point in history. Half of them are from Afghanistan and Syria.
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    I saw this video on facebook, someone was stuck in traffic in France and they recorded this crowd of young men of color walking through the traffic and opening the back of a truck to try to climb in and sneak across the channel. These people are desperate, and I would not want to be a lorry driver right now.
    The headlines at the beginning of summer where they were interviewing British tourists in Greece who were complaining that the refugees were ruining their holiday annoyed the crap out of me.

    I dont pretend to have any answers or suggestions here. Europe is in a really tough spot with this. On the one hand you want them to help these people out. On the other hand you don't want to encourage more people to try to get to Europe because you don't want to encourage the human traffickers. Yet you can't go in yourselves to relocate refugees because of that pesky sovereignty issue. And you definitely don't want the strain on your resources.
    NYC 06/24/08-Auckland 11/27/09-Chch 11/29/09-Newark 05/18/10-Atlanta 09/22/12-Chicago 07/19/13-Brooklyn 10/18/13 & 10/19/13-Hartford 10/25/13-Baltimore 10/27/13-Auckland 1/17/14-GC 1/19/14-Melbourne 1/24/14-Sydney 1/26/14-Amsterdam 6/16/14 & 6/17/14-Milan 6/20/14-Berlin 6/26/14-Leeds 7/8/14-Milton Keynes 7/11/14-St. Louis 10/3/14-NYC 9/26/15
    LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    This is absolutely horrific.

    Warning....graphic pictures at the bottom of article

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/migrant-crisis-pictures-1.3212481
  • dankinddankind Posts: 20,839
    The drowned boy is heartbreaking.

    I can't help it, but I just see my son.

    And his 5-year-old brother also drowned.

    And that makes me think of my daughter, who just finished her first day of kindergarten.

    They are all our people.

    The Guardian also had coverage.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/shocking-image-of-drowned-syrian-boy-shows-tragic-plight-of-refugees
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    Yeah, we have a boy who's almost a year old now. Pictures like that didn't bother me as much as they do now. My wife was upset and crying after seeing the photos....you can't help but compare them with your own children.

    Imagine how bad life is in your home country to risk your life and your family's life to get away. It is very much heartbreaking.
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    Interesting read in vice.
    NYC 06/24/08-Auckland 11/27/09-Chch 11/29/09-Newark 05/18/10-Atlanta 09/22/12-Chicago 07/19/13-Brooklyn 10/18/13 & 10/19/13-Hartford 10/25/13-Baltimore 10/27/13-Auckland 1/17/14-GC 1/19/14-Melbourne 1/24/14-Sydney 1/26/14-Amsterdam 6/16/14 & 6/17/14-Milan 6/20/14-Berlin 6/26/14-Leeds 7/8/14-Milton Keynes 7/11/14-St. Louis 10/3/14-NYC 9/26/15
    LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    dignin said:

    This is absolutely horrific.

    Warning....graphic pictures at the bottom of article

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/migrant-crisis-pictures-1.3212481

    Absolutely heartbreaking
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk Posts: 4,004
    We must help these people the situation is getting more and more desperate in Budapest. EU must do something now, action please.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    Stop being such a partisan Rod.We all know you hate the right.You think that only the Republicans in our govt are the problem?Cmon you know better then that.Your letting your bias cloud your judgement.
    I still don't get how a bunch of folks preaching peace and love and equality(except for cops and republicans and people with money) can have so much venom and contempt for 50% of the people in this country.It reeks of hypocrisy.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    edited September 2015

    rr165892 said:

    Destabilizing factors like military coups,splinter groups,Rebels,Warlords,etc.Shit Syria is bombing its own people.Egypt is a big hot political mess.just to name a couple.

    AQ,IS and The Taliban have greatly added to the refugee issue in the countries they operate.

    Jesus. Chasing my tail here. I've already explained this - on this thread, just a few posts up...ISIS is a US/allied creation. Even if you choose not to believe all the evidence and admissions that show they have been provided logistics, funding and training by the US and their allies, that they're reinforced and led by many of the same foreign mercenaries used in Libya....even if you believe the dumbed-down fox version of events....they are a direct result of the war in Iraq.
    AQ was a US creation too, and for similar reason - to fight for US interests.
    The US government gave $43 million in aid to the Taliban in 2000 and $132 million in 2001. In negotiations for a pipeline deal, they were told “You either accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”....
    Egypt...Mubarak was a US puppet for how many decades? They supported him till the bitter end. Did you know the US just resumed supplying arms (heavy arms - tanks and F16s), and billions in aid to Egypt? Of course they did so while 'expressing concerns' over al-sisi's abysmal human rights record. There are US fingerprints all over that country.

    I agree with gambs that we absolutely must hold those committing the violence accountable. But in many cases they are not held responsible because they are our allies, or because they have common goals. They are only held responsible if their actions do not align with US interests. It benefits the US to prop up dictators because they can control their populations with greater ease than a democratic leader can. If a dictator won't play ball, we take them out. Do you honestly think the US gets involved in these places out of the kindness of it's heart?

    Even if we had a hand in creating Franenstiens Monster here,which I acknowledge we did ,I agree.

    it still dosent absolve liability of the current actions being set forth from all the entities I mentioned above.
    Post edited by rr165892 on
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    We must deal with the present and not look at the past for the current fix.For future preventative measures,sure we look back at past transgresions and learn from our mistakes(if that's even possible). But we(you) cannot keep holding on to that blame as justification for the attrocities being committed by these clowns now.
  • The Kurdi family, whose son Aylan is pictured dead on the Turkish beach, filed a legitimate claim to come to Canada.Canada, under the watch of Toronto conservative Immigration Minister Chris Alexander REJECTED their claim even though they had family already established in British Columbia trying to help them start a new life in Canada.This is disgusting.These people are hungry, exhausted and terrified to the point they are risking EVERYTHING to start a new life.The Harper conservative government failed them and now they are dead!!!! Canada needs to do more to help these desperate people.They want a chance at life.Nothing more.Countries around the world shouldn't be waiting for these tragic photos to draw attention to an issue that has already spiralled out of control.Canada must step up.As a Canadian citizen, this is extremely upsetting to me that this family had their application for entry into Canada denied.Immigration Minister Chris Alexander has suspended his re-election campaign to race to Ottawa today to get to the bottom of this.What a joke.Too little too late.Another politician playing games and trying to save face.I hope the Kurdi family did not die in vain.
    1993 08-18 Toronto ON CNE w/ Neil Young, Soundgarden
    1998 08-22 Barrie ON Molson Park
    2003 05-02 Buffalo NY HSBC, 06-28 Toronto ON Molson Amp.
    2004 10-02 Toledo OH Vote For Change w/ Neil Young
    2005 09-19 Toronto ON ACC, 09-13 Hamilton ON Copps, 09-11 Kitchener ON Memorial Gardens
    2006 05-10 Toronto ON ACC, 05-09 Toronto ON ACC
    2007 EV 09-11 Toronto ON Body of War TIFF Screening Isabel Bader Theatre - Grateful to have met Ed!!
    2008 EV 08-12 Toronto ON Massey Hall
    2009 08-21 Toronto ON Molson Amp.
    2010 05-10 Buffalo NY HSBC
    2011 09-15 Hamilton ON Copps, 09-11 Toronto ON ACC, 09-12 Toronto ON ACC,
    2011 EV 06-26 Detroit MI Fox Theatre
    2013 10-12 Buffalo NY First Niagara, 07-16 London ON Bud Gardens
    2016 05-10, 05-12 Toronto ON ACC
    2022 09-06 Hamilton ON First Ontario Centre
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    ldent42 said:

    I saw this video on facebook, someone was stuck in traffic in France and they recorded this crowd of young men of color walking through the traffic and opening the back of a truck to try to climb in and sneak across the channel. These people are desperate, and I would not want to be a lorry driver right now.
    The headlines at the beginning of summer where they were interviewing British tourists in Greece who were complaining that the refugees were ruining their holiday annoyed the crap out of me.

    I dont pretend to have any answers or suggestions here. Europe is in a really tough spot with this. On the one hand you want them to help these people out. On the other hand you don't want to encourage more people to try to get to Europe because you don't want to encourage the human traffickers. Yet you can't go in yourselves to relocate refugees because of that pesky sovereignty issue. And you definitely don't want the strain on your resources.

    Ruined their holiday? What total motherfuckers (what idiot would go to Greece for vacation right now in any case? - sorry Greece).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • dankinddankind Posts: 20,839
    ldent42 said:

    Interesting read in vice.

    I should start giving Vice a second chance. Most of the creeps who were there at the beginning have left or been forced out.

    A journalist friend of mine has a few sources in Raqqa. Some of the stuff she hears is just too terrible to comprehend.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • CBC reporting that the Canadian government has now offered citizenship to Mr.Kurdi.He has rejected it.Way too little.Way too late.He has lost his family in horrific fashion.He has nothing left.This offer from the Harper gov't is nothing but an insult.Political damage control.They denied him when he and his children and wife needed our help.Now everyone is dead and now it's ok to be a Canadian.Makes me sick.I hope someway, somehow he can find strength in the memories and love he shared with his family during the all too short time that they were together in this life,
    1993 08-18 Toronto ON CNE w/ Neil Young, Soundgarden
    1998 08-22 Barrie ON Molson Park
    2003 05-02 Buffalo NY HSBC, 06-28 Toronto ON Molson Amp.
    2004 10-02 Toledo OH Vote For Change w/ Neil Young
    2005 09-19 Toronto ON ACC, 09-13 Hamilton ON Copps, 09-11 Kitchener ON Memorial Gardens
    2006 05-10 Toronto ON ACC, 05-09 Toronto ON ACC
    2007 EV 09-11 Toronto ON Body of War TIFF Screening Isabel Bader Theatre - Grateful to have met Ed!!
    2008 EV 08-12 Toronto ON Massey Hall
    2009 08-21 Toronto ON Molson Amp.
    2010 05-10 Buffalo NY HSBC
    2011 09-15 Hamilton ON Copps, 09-11 Toronto ON ACC, 09-12 Toronto ON ACC,
    2011 EV 06-26 Detroit MI Fox Theatre
    2013 10-12 Buffalo NY First Niagara, 07-16 London ON Bud Gardens
    2016 05-10, 05-12 Toronto ON ACC
    2022 09-06 Hamilton ON First Ontario Centre
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    edited September 2015
    ldent42 said:

    Interesting read in vice.

    I forgot to post the link. D'oh.
    http://www.vice.com/read/i-spent-the-day-at-a-greek-refugee-camp-504

    Dankind, I've only recently started reading it. I have a vague memory of Vice as some kind of stoner magazine or something? A friend of mine said the same thing when I mentioned an article I'd read in there "Yea I really should start looking at Vice they got good now" so at the very least I guess it has some better reporting than it used to.

    I really wish I had some kind of index of all the articles I read because I don't have a clue what to google to find the one about the British tourists. But I will try. Apparently "British tourists upset Greece" is all it takes. I do still want an index though. I read a lot of shit on the internet.

    the preemptive "yes I know it's the Daily Mail" as required:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3099736/Holidaymakers-misery-boat-people-Syria-Afghanistan-seeking-asylum-set-migrant-camp-turn-popular-Greek-island-Kos-disgusting-hellhole.html
    Post edited by ldent42 on
    NYC 06/24/08-Auckland 11/27/09-Chch 11/29/09-Newark 05/18/10-Atlanta 09/22/12-Chicago 07/19/13-Brooklyn 10/18/13 & 10/19/13-Hartford 10/25/13-Baltimore 10/27/13-Auckland 1/17/14-GC 1/19/14-Melbourne 1/24/14-Sydney 1/26/14-Amsterdam 6/16/14 & 6/17/14-Milan 6/20/14-Berlin 6/26/14-Leeds 7/8/14-Milton Keynes 7/11/14-St. Louis 10/3/14-NYC 9/26/15
    LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited September 2015
    ^^^ The bitch saying it's "disgusting"..... I want to think that she meant the human misery is disgusting, or that the situation the refugees are in is disgusting, but unfortunately I have to assume from her complaints about people watching her while she eats and about how things are messier than usual, that she means the refugees being there and posing an inconvenience (not even actually - more like bringing "awkwardness", because yeah, human misery and desperation is so "awkward") to her during her holiday is disgusting, in which case, she is utterly disgusting herself and represents everything that is disgusting about the entire situation. So congrats to her, Anne Servante, a nurse from Manchester, for being the poster woman for how disgusting humanity can be.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • ldent42ldent42 Posts: 7,859
    There was another one too, "we've never been before but we're not gonna come back if it's still a refugee camp next year".

    To be fair, I understand that you're on holiday, you have probably been looking forward to it for month, you have this idea of laying on a beach all day and drinking all night, and you get to forget about life for a few days, but instead you're staring a portion of one of the worst humanitarian crises in decades. I can't act like I don't understand their disappointment. But instead of looking at this situation and going "oh thats not how we wanted to spend our holiday" why the fuck arent you looking at this going "no seriously you have no idea how bad this situation is. What these people are living like while they wait for the government to handle their cases. How terrible shit must be for them at home if they're coming here like this as a better option than staying."

    Look man I'm from a big city with a big homeless problem. I'm not gonna act like I'm a saint. I've seen some shit. I know how crazy/predatory/nasty homeless crackheads can be. But these refugees are not homeless crackheads. These people are fuckin'small business owners and pharmasists and students. Why do you think they're all going to Germany? When I read about Germany doing free tuition for everyone including foreign students IIIIIIIIIIIII was ready to pack my fuckin' bags. For whatever reason though you read that Daily Mail article and probably a bunch of others and they (the refugees) are made out to be some kind of vagrants. Oh course she's watching her baby's clothes in the sea, she hasn't got a damn washer/dryer set up in the middle of the street has she?

    Makes you wanna punch someone don't it
    NYC 06/24/08-Auckland 11/27/09-Chch 11/29/09-Newark 05/18/10-Atlanta 09/22/12-Chicago 07/19/13-Brooklyn 10/18/13 & 10/19/13-Hartford 10/25/13-Baltimore 10/27/13-Auckland 1/17/14-GC 1/19/14-Melbourne 1/24/14-Sydney 1/26/14-Amsterdam 6/16/14 & 6/17/14-Milan 6/20/14-Berlin 6/26/14-Leeds 7/8/14-Milton Keynes 7/11/14-St. Louis 10/3/14-NYC 9/26/15
    LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited September 2015
    Well here's a thought: maybe the tourists, who obviously have money to spare, could invite some of the refugees to share their meals with them, since they are going hungry, or maybe give them a helping hand in some other way, or take an afternoon out of their busy vacation to volunteer at a refugee station. I find it disgusting that there aren't more positive humanitarian stories coming out of the area. Though I do appreciate those that do, i.e. Greek people who are broke themselves giving whatever they can.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,594
    rr165892 said:

    I hope you see it as a human crisis and not an immigrant problem.
    These are asylum seekers; refugees...
    Over 2500 of them have died around the Mediterranean so far this year.
    This is what happens when we destabilize entire regions....
    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/8/31/preserving_borders_vs_preserving_people_death

    republicans and their media masters at fox news do not recognize humanitarian crises until it is happening to americans only. they will tell you that this influx of asylum seekers is a problem for europeans because they do not have the capacity to ask one simple question.

    "what is it that these people are running from, and can we possibly help them with that?"
    Stop being such a partisan Rod.We all know you hate the right.You think that only the Republicans in our govt are the problem?Cmon you know better then that.Your letting your bias cloud your judgement.
    I still don't get how a bunch of folks preaching peace and love and equality(except for cops and republicans and people with money) can have so much venom and contempt for 50% of the people in this country.It reeks of hypocrisy.
    Except its not 50% of the country.

    Independents are the plurality at approx 43% of the regist r ed voting population.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Ok,cmon Mickey.So its also Independents like me.Noted.its still bullshitty
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited September 2015
    Slowly but steady, there are more and more private actions to help the refugees around Europe. Although the politicians are dragging their feet, more and more citizens all over Europe are taking action.
    All help is welcome!!!

    ikwilietsdoenvooreenvluchteling.nl.
    refugees-welcome.net/
    haaretz.com/news/world/1.673649

    https://facebook.com/Gastgezinvoorvluchteling?pnref=story

    https://facebook.com/fullywelcome?fref=nf

    fullywelcome.eu/
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    just out of curriosity, how many of you would take some of these families into your home ? I mean really, how many ? I know some of you would say yes but really think about it before you answer, do you trust strangers with your belongings or your kid's ?, I don't expect an honest answer on here but while your at home or work think about that for a while, are you willing to take strangers (1 or 2 families) into your home with your family ?

    Godfather.
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited September 2015

    just out of curriosity, how many of you would take some of these families into your home ? I mean really, how many ? I know some of you would say yes but really think about it before you answer, do you trust strangers with your belongings or your kid's ?, I don't expect an honest answer on here but while your at home or work think about that for a while, are you willing to take strangers (1 or 2 families) into your home with your family ?

    Godfather.

    Yes, I will, at the moment I'm exploring the possibilities. If we don't help these people so desperate in need, what kind of humans are we? I can't see eye to eye with myself, any longer if I don't try to help these fellow human beings.
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • Yeah I would. In a heartbeat. I have two children at home with my wife. We like to teach our kids how to be compassionate human beings and not people who just scoff and ignore this kind of thing.
    looking to hear of the earth
This discussion has been closed.