The Debate

Godfather.

rr165892 said:

I don't think GF is that far right.I think he is just having some fun with his threads.

I do lean right for sure on buisness,economy and tax issues,but I'm pretty much common sense on everything else.

hehehhe yes sir about half the time..but you have to see the humor in life sometimes or you go bat shit crazy.

Godfather.

what dreams

gimmesometruth27 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

why does this bother everyone?

is it really fair for tuition to increase exponentially and then kids come out of school 100 grand in debt in this job market?

if nothing else, people will have another way to berate the younger generations when they talk about having to walk 30 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways, AND had to pay for their own college.

it is about time we invest in people.

It bothers me because WE ARE BROKE. There is nothing left in the piggy bank.

And because there are plenty of other ways to keep college costs down for everybody while still helping low-income students make their way through.

And because not everybody comes out with this inflammatory six-figure loan debt, a figure irresponsibly tossed about by certain politicians to get people fired up. Sure, some students do have that much debt -- the ones who *choose* to go to really expensive private schools and/or out of state and/or continue onto a post-graduate program -- but not everybody does. According to the Wall Street Journal, the average student loan debt of newly graduated students is currently $35,000. Huffington Post says it's $23,000. I just checked today to make sure I get the real facts. And with insanely low interest rates and flexible terms (deferments, etc.), the payments are manageable for people who make a financially responsible choice to invest in themselves.

Rather than scaring people into believing nobody can go to college unless the government pays the entire bill, I would prefer to frame the education debate this way: Why are states not providing more practical, less expensive options for students who want to learn a technical trade after high school? Why do we stigmatize those young people who choose that option? Does everybody really need to sit through four-six years of Jane Austen and chemistry labs, if they don't want to be a critic or a chemist? And most importantly -- why has the corporate business community completely abdicated their responsibility in training the workforce? There used to be this thing called "on-the-job-training" in this country. Whatever happened to that?

rgambs

what dreams said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

why does this bother everyone?

is it really fair for tuition to increase exponentially and then kids come out of school 100 grand in debt in this job market?

if nothing else, people will have another way to berate the younger generations when they talk about having to walk 30 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways, AND had to pay for their own college.

it is about time we invest in people.

It bothers me because WE ARE BROKE. There is nothing left in the piggy bank.

And because there are plenty of other ways to keep college costs down for everybody while still helping low-income students make their way through.

And because not everybody comes out with this inflammatory six-figure loan debt, a figure irresponsibly tossed about by certain politicians to get people fired up. Sure, some students do have that much debt -- the ones who *choose* to go to really expensive private schools and/or out of state and/or continue onto a post-graduate program -- but not everybody does. According to the Wall Street Journal, the average student loan debt of newly graduated students is currently $35,000. Huffington Post says it's $23,000. I just checked today to make sure I get the real facts. And with insanely low interest rates and flexible terms (deferments, etc.), the payments are manageable for people who make a financially responsible choice to invest in themselves.

Rather than scaring people into believing nobody can go to college unless the government pays the entire bill, I would prefer to frame the education debate this way: Why are states not providing more practical, less expensive options for students who want to learn a technical trade after high school? Why do we stigmatize those young people who choose that option? Does everybody really need to sit through four-six years of Jane Austen and chemistry labs, if they don't want to be a critic or a chemist? And most importantly -- why has the corporate business community completely abdicated their responsibility in training the workforce? There used to be this thing called "on-the-job-training" in this country. Whatever happened to that?

I agree with your post in most ways, but interest rates are not insanely low and post graduate programs should not be excluded from the conversation.
The professional career tracts are suffering and we do not want to go down a road where it is no longer profitable to study the higher levels of education.
Education comes from the top down, if we aren't cognizant of that, the effect will be felt in all facets of society.

gimmesometruth27

what dreams said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

why does this bother everyone?

is it really fair for tuition to increase exponentially and then kids come out of school 100 grand in debt in this job market?

if nothing else, people will have another way to berate the younger generations when they talk about having to walk 30 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways, AND had to pay for their own college.

it is about time we invest in people.

It bothers me because WE ARE BROKE. There is nothing left in the piggy bank.

And because there are plenty of other ways to keep college costs down for everybody while still helping low-income students make their way through.

And because not everybody comes out with this inflammatory six-figure loan debt, a figure irresponsibly tossed about by certain politicians to get people fired up. Sure, some students do have that much debt -- the ones who *choose* to go to really expensive private schools and/or out of state and/or continue onto a post-graduate program -- but not everybody does. According to the Wall Street Journal, the average student loan debt of newly graduated students is currently $35,000. Huffington Post says it's $23,000. I just checked today to make sure I get the real facts. And with insanely low interest rates and flexible terms (deferments, etc.), the payments are manageable for people who make a financially responsible choice to invest in themselves.

Rather than scaring people into believing nobody can go to college unless the government pays the entire bill, I would prefer to frame the education debate this way: Why are states not providing more practical, less expensive options for students who want to learn a technical trade after high school? Why do we stigmatize those young people who choose that option? Does everybody really need to sit through four-six years of Jane Austen and chemistry labs, if they don't want to be a critic or a chemist? And most importantly -- why has the corporate business community completely abdicated their responsibility in training the workforce? There used to be this thing called "on-the-job-training" in this country. Whatever happened to that?

we are broke? did reagan know that when he cut taxes? how about w? were we broke with w put a trillion dollar war on the credit card AND cut taxes at the same time?

being broke does not bother me as much as it bothers some people. we have enough money for war. we have enough money for the piece of shit f-35 or whatever it is called, but we don't have money for roads, infrastructure, health care, and schools, let alone college. nobody ever says anything about that. there is always money for the military and pentagon and defense contractors. but never enough for security at embassies, ie benghazi.

not everyone come out with that high of debt. in 2000 i came out owing $48,000 for my bachelors and masters. that is even with a graduate assistant position that paid for my graduate tuition. the same education would cost a kid today nearly twice that. in a 15 year span. has then been anything that nearly doubles in cost aside from college?

you speak of insanely low interest rates. what source are you getting that from? a lot of students are paying 7% interest on their loans. that is hardly insanely low. why should people have to pay higher interest on college than they pay for their own home? is that fair? and once they graduate, they HAVE to start paying on them 6 months after they graduate. most people can't even find a job in 6 months. like the military, the lending institutions ALWAYS get their money. how is it fair for banks to make loans on those terms? they are saddling the people with the least money, broke ass college kids, with the worst terms for these loans. it is predatory if you ask me.

who is stigmatizing people who choose trade school? a lot of those graduates, assuming they find a job, come out making more money than your entry level college graduate position.

the corporate business community does not offer "on the job training" because that training costs them money. it is bad for the bottom line, know what i'm sayin'?

Last-12-Exit

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

Last-12-Exit

Secondary education is one of the biggest scams this country has. There is no reason college tuition rates have tripled since I went to school. My worthless degree cost me about 40+k in debts. Why the hell should the tax payers have to take on that? I would rather pay for military defense and infrastructure.

gimmesometruth27

Last-12-Exit said:

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

you sound like a bitter old man.

gimmesometruth27

Last-12-Exit said:

Secondary education is one of the biggest scams this country has. There is no reason college tuition rates have tripled since I went to school. My worthless degree cost me about 40+k in debts. Why the hell should the tax payers have to take on that? I would rather pay for military defense and infrastructure.

and why have college tuition costs tripled? it is all about money. everyone has their hands out. the school raises prices, the bigger the loans are, and the lenders make out like bandits on the interest. fund the schools so the kids go for free. let them get loans for books and housing. if tuition is waived they come out debt free or without crippling debt, and fuck the lenders.

Last-12-Exit

gimmesometruth27 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

you sound like a bitter old man.

Well, if you spend any time on aet, you'll see that I am. But that's beside the point. I'm paying out enough welfare. I don't want to add college tuition to the list.

callen

Last-12-Exit said:

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

Furthering this the first two years are really a waste and how many will go and never graduate. Heck percentage is horrible now. pssst no one defended MB.

what dreams

Maybe the people in St. Fuckin Louis applaud students who go to trade school. In the school district where I teach -- highly affluent metro DC -- everyone is four-year college bound, even the kids who can barely string five English words together to form a complete sentence. It's heretical to suggest otherwise.

As far as the professional class with post-graduate degrees suffering because it's not profitable for them -- well, that's just too bad, so sad. Every time I listen to Marco Rubio talk about paying off his loan, I'm like fuck dude, you're a U.S senator running for the President of the United States. Look where that six figures got you. That wasn't a good return on your investment? I have doctor friends pissing about their loans -- and they live in fucking mansions and drive Lexuses. No pity for the professional class and their big loans.

Sorry I think 5-7% interest is insanely low. How about just low? My student loan rate is 5%. It's nothing. I pay like two hundred dollars a year in interest, now that my balance is getting down. In the beginning, true, it was more, but after grad school, I was able to consolidate and refinance, stretched out my term to bring the payment to an affordable $116 a month, and twice I was able arrange a deferment and a forbearance when I was experiencing hardship. So if there are people out there who are being robbed by some shark, I guess that person didn't shop around for the best lender. How in the hell am I able to do what I can -- all under the law -- and nobody else can? And I grew up dirt poor -- not middle class, but the real kind of poor where we didn't have heat in the winter because we couldn't pay the electric bill. My entire college education, both degrees, was financed. And I don't have one bitter thought about it because I didn't go into college expecting it to be "profitable." I went in to fucking learn and better myself.

Lastly, regarding the national debt in general and how we got here. It does no good arguing about the past and throwing blame around. I don't give a shit about which Republican or Democrat spent more or less money or cut or raised more taxes in the past. Just as I deal with my own household debt, I am on a strict spending plan until I get it under control. I pay cash for what I need to have, not charge on a credit card the things that would be nice to have. I try to save as much as I can. It's completely irresponsible for me to do otherwise, and I expect our elected leaders of both parties to do the same -- whether it's Hillary, Bernie, or any of the other 16 side show freaks.

Sorry I write such long posts. I don't have anything else to do.

Last-12-Exit

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

Furthering this the first two years are really a waste and how many will go and never graduate. Heck percentage is horrible now. pssst no one defended MB.

The only reason I got my degree was because of the money I had already spent. To quit after a couple years would have been a colossal waste of money. Imagine how many would quit after a year or two knowing they didn't have to pay for it.

callen

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Seriously? Why does it bother me to pay for someone else to go to college? I went to college. I know what a waste of time it is. I'm in enough debt because of college.

Furthering this the first two years are really a waste and how many will go and never graduate. Heck percentage is horrible now. pssst no one defended MB.

The only reason I got my degree was because of the money I had already spent. To quit after a couple years would have been a colossal waste of money. Imagine how many would quit after a year or two knowing they didn't have to pay for it.

Agree.

gimmesometruth27

what dreams said:

Maybe the people in St. Fuckin Louis applaud students who go to trade school. In the school district where I teach -- highly affluent metro DC -- everyone is four-year college bound, even the kids who can barely string five English words together to form a complete sentence. It's heretical to suggest otherwise.

As far as the professional class with post-graduate degrees suffering because it's not profitable for them -- well, that's just too bad, so sad. Every time I listen to Marco Rubio talk about paying off his loan, I'm like fuck dude, you're a U.S senator running for the President of the United States. Look where that six figures got you. That wasn't a good return on your investment? I have doctor friends pissing about their loans -- and they live in fucking mansions and drive Lexuses. No pity for the professional class and their big loans.

Sorry I think 5-7% interest is insanely low. How about just low? My student loan rate is 5%. It's nothing. I pay like two hundred dollars a year in interest, now that my balance is getting down. In the beginning, true, it was more, but after grad school, I was able to consolidate and refinance, stretched out my term to bring the payment to an affordable $116 a month, and twice I was able arrange a deferment and a forbearance when I was experiencing hardship. So if there are people out there who are being robbed by some shark, I guess that person didn't shop around for the best lender. How in the hell am I able to do what I can -- all under the law -- and nobody else can? And I grew up dirt poor -- not middle class, but the real kind of poor where we didn't have heat in the winter because we couldn't pay the electric bill. My entire college education, both degrees, was financed. And I don't have one bitter thought about it because I didn't go into college expecting it to be "profitable." I went in to fucking learn and better myself.

Lastly, regarding the national debt in general and how we got here. It does no good arguing about the past and throwing blame around. I don't give a shit about which Republican or Democrat spent more or less money or cut or raised more taxes in the past. Just as I deal with my own household debt, I am on a strict spending plan until I get it under control. I pay cash for what I need to have, not charge on a credit card the things that would be nice to have. I try to save as much as I can. It's completely irresponsible for me to do otherwise, and I expect our elected leaders of both parties to do the same -- whether it's Hillary, Bernie, or any of the other 16 side show freaks.

Sorry I write such long posts. I don't have anything else to do.

don't apologize for the long posts. i was the same way a few years ago when i actually gave a shit about trying to convince people about something. now i am just direct because i am lazy, and most people do not read entire posts anyway, so long posts are basically a waste of time on here anymore.

well for starters, look at where you teach. highly affluent DC. probably old money country. those are the people who look down their nose at trade schools. they think trades are below their little Wellington the third and Spalding the second. it is a given for wealthy families to expect their kid to go and get a higher education. after all, that family just pays people to fix their air conditioner when it breaks. they don't do that themselves. i do find it hard to believe that there are people in your school who have such futility communicating in the english language. no child left behind, and the parents of such kids would blame the teachers for that one. there are several trade schools around here. the main criticism they get among locals here is that they advertise help finding a job when there market is oversaturated so people can't find jobs.

i work with surgeons everyday. the main guy i work with owes $180,000 after medical school, residency, and 2 fellowships. he drives a kia and lives in a modest home. it would be much higher than that but he had a college basketball scholarship that paid undergrad. he is one of the rising stars in hip research and is a paid consultant for a couple of different device companies. he will make that money to pay off those loans in just a few years. but he is the exception. most people can't pay that shit off in a timely manner. he is the exception. plus, as you probably know, student loan debt follows you until you pay it off. you can file bankruptcy and still owe those loans. that debt does not go away. the way you made adjustments depends on your lender. i hear of people who can not consolidate loans. i had 14 separate loans. one per semester following my freshman year of college, which i was lucky enough to have had paid by baseball scholarship.

i am a little puzzled how you say that history does not matter how we got here. it is very relevant to how we got here, and it is relevant to the discussion. look at the parties. look who is proposing paying for education, and look who is proposing more defense spending and more tax cuts for the wealthy. it is interesting to note that those not interested in funding education are the ones who got us here. that is all i am saying.

let's be honest. you can't even begin to compare your financial situation and how you stay within your budget to that of the 319 million individuals in the united states. a country, and a federal government does not operate like a single household. that is an oversimplistic way that people like paul ryan try to pass off onto the rest of us.

what dreams

Thanks for your thoughtful response, gimme.

I say history is not relevant to our present situation because the leading candidates of both parties are offering the same tired old economic solutions to an unprecedented amount of debt. It's either cut taxes on the wealthy or raise taxes on the wealthy. It's bull for a choice. Everybody knows it. Clinton can say all she wants about taxing the wealthy to get elected. What she knows but will never say to chumps like you and me is "Bill and I have lawyers and accountants who make sure we pay nothing. But thank you for voting for us so we can continue to enjoy the White House."

I can tell you this -- I freaking LOVED the Bush tax cut. It should have been permanent. Sure, for someone like me, it only came to about $150 extra every month, but when I'm living paycheck to paycheck, that's another tank of gas and another bag of groceries each month. That's one more week's of expenses that I didn't have to put on my credit card. So Obama and his lovely Democratic majority at the time chose not to renew the tax break, and what really do we have to show for stealing that additional 2000 dollars from me or you? NOTHING.

None of the vast majority of us have seen our financial situation significantly change in the past seven years under Obama. None. I have a few friends who now have a health insurance plan with 400 dollar premiums and 10,000 deductibles, so they still can't afford to be sick anyway. But that's about it. In every facet of our lives, we have stagnated in this pool of muck.

We need NEW solutions for the 21st century. These dinosaur baby boomers like the Clintons and the Bushes have already wrecked this country enough with their class warfare left over from the Cold War. Bernie Sanders lost his argument before the Cold War was even over. I'm planning to campaign the hell against Clinton in the Virginia primaries and supporting Jim Webb, who is calling for an overhaul of the tax code and moving the country toward a consumption tax. I know it's a long shot that anybody but she will have the nomination. If I do have to hold my nose and vote for her in the general election, at least I'll know I tried to change the direction of the debate.
And if she loses the general election, honestly, it won't make a damned bit of difference -- except maybe I'll get my $2000 back.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

Thanks for your thoughtful response, gimme.

I say history is not relevant to our present situation because the leading candidates of both parties are offering the same tired old economic solutions to an unprecedented amount of debt. It's either cut taxes on the wealthy or raise taxes on the wealthy. It's bull for a choice. Everybody knows it. Clinton can say all she wants about taxing the wealthy to get elected. What she knows but will never say to chumps like you and me is "Bill and I have lawyers and accountants who make sure we pay nothing. But thank you for voting for us so we can continue to enjoy the White House."

I can tell you this -- I freaking LOVED the Bush tax cut. It should have been permanent. Sure, for someone like me, it only came to about $150 extra every month, but when I'm living paycheck to paycheck, that's another tank of gas and another bag of groceries each month. That's one more week's of expenses that I didn't have to put on my credit card. So Obama and his lovely Democratic majority at the time chose not to renew the tax break, and what really do we have to show for stealing that additional 2000 dollars from me or you? NOTHING.

None of the vast majority of us have seen our financial situation significantly change in the past seven years under Obama. None. I have a few friends who now have a health insurance plan with 400 dollar premiums and 10,000 deductibles, so they still can't afford to be sick anyway. But that's about it. In every facet of our lives, we have stagnated in this pool of muck.

We need NEW solutions for the 21st century. These dinosaur baby boomers like the Clintons and the Bushes have already wrecked this country enough with their class warfare left over from the Cold War. Bernie Sanders lost his argument before the Cold War was even over. I'm planning to campaign the hell against Clinton in the Virginia primaries and supporting Jim Webb, who is calling for an overhaul of the tax code and moving the country toward a consumption tax. I know it's a long shot that anybody but she will have the nomination. If I do have to hold my nose and vote for her in the general election, at least I'll know I tried to change the direction of the debate.
And if she loses the general election, honestly, it won't make a damned bit of difference -- except maybe I'll get my $2000 back.

Clinton released her tax returns....they pay a LOT of tax. A very high % of their income

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-releases-eight-years-of-tax-returns-120882.html

callen

Have always liked Webb. Checked out his positions. Mostly agree with exception to not supporting Iran deal. Support his position that one shouldn't just vote along party lines, infrastructure, penal reforms consumption based taxing. Understands wars and costs. Would definitely take him over Clinton at this point. Also think he could get votes from independents and even the right. Minorities and women????

rr165892

callen said:

Have always liked Webb. Checked out his positions. Mostly agree with exception to not supporting Iran deal. Support his position that one shouldn't just vote along party lines, infrastructure, penal reforms consumption based taxing. Understands wars and costs. Would definitely take him over Clinton at this point. Also think he could get votes from independents and even the right. Minorities and women????

I'll give this a look.I like some of what I am hearing with Webb.Hows his stance on small buisness?

PJ_Soul

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

It makes me sick to my stomach that education in America has been co-opted by the wealthy, further widening the gap between the rich and everyone else.

Last-12-Exit

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

It makes me sick to my stomach that education in America has been co-opted by the wealthy, further widening the gap between the rich and everyone else.

So you think it's ok to have tax money pay for college? If that ever happens, I want reimbursed for what I paid for college. Enough tax dollars are spent on welfare. We already pay for kids to go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade. It is not mandatory to have a college education. If you want it, you should have to pay for it yourself.