Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq

mickeyrat

DarthMaeglin said:

mickeyrat said:

Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?

In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.

As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.

I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.

Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.

How many thousand?

DarthMaeglin

Sorry, thousand what? I'm assuming (dangerous, I know, lol) you mean soldier deaths in Iraq? To my knowledge 1 so far, in addition to the 150 or so lost in Afghanistan. Not entirely sure what your point is with that though, sorry.

Edit: We lost 158 in Afghanistan, without counting the suicides when the soldiers returned home.

mickeyrat

How many thousand active in Iraq right now.

DarthMaeglin

Thanks for clarifying. I believe we have hundreds of troops involved, between the advisors on the ground, pilots and ground crews. Not to mention our naval forces in the area as well. Likely (I'll admit I'm guessing) we're close to proportional when we compare our respective populations (yours is roughly 10 times ours).

And to clarify my own position, I've never agreed with war from the air as the only solution. Boots on the ground is what will make an actual difference, both in terms of combat and hearts and minds. Further, I believe that any war should be planned with the expectation of leaving a long-term presence on the ground, a la post-WWII Germany and Japan. I also think we left Afghanistan too early, before the work was complete.

brianlux

Ever wonder why they call it "endless war"? What has that accomplished? Why is our first reaction to any situation war? Why do we in the west always see it as our responsibility to meddle? Why do we never seem to take responsibility for creating this mess?

I know... question, questions.

mickeyrat

Boots on the ground should never be used again. By anyone. Kinda shits on the men and women wearing them to reduce them to that term. They are in fact ground troops.

Canada should have stayed as right as they were in 03.

I saw an article from the Toronto paper that said there were 69 special forces in country. Thats it. Helping the Kurds.

I wont guess where the sorties are flying from.

DarthMaeglin

mickeyrat said:

Boots on the ground should never be used again. By anyone. Kinda shits on the men and women wearing them to reduce them to that term. They are in fact ground troops.

Canada should have stayed as right as they were in 03.

Clearly we differ, and I'm sorry for using an expression that I didn't realize was offensive (since I've heard/read soldiers use that exact term themselves).

Thank heavens the world's big enough for opposite points of view and rational discourse (at least in our "enlightened" society, lol).

Aafke

DarthMaeglin said:

mickeyrat said:

Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?

In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.

As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.

I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.

Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.

It's funny... All people I've spoken, who claimed they where pro-invasion of the Middle-East, gave the same arguments... Like the fat printed above... Not only in the latests conflicts in the Middle-East, but with all conflicts anywhere and everywhere... Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down. AQ was making a point on 9/11 to take our Western nose out of their business. For once they have managed to make their point in a similar way the West has done this for centuries, to take action at a country they saw as the great evil. But doesn't the West have done this same type of action or much. much worse for centuries? Don't we invade countries for many years in which we not only attack once, but invade with many troops and assassinate whole governments, because we doesn't accept their way of life on principle and will always work to take them down? I name, basically all invasions by the West since WW II...

Why is it so difficult for people to look at this from an other perspective as their own? How would you feel if the Middle East would send in troops to assassinate the US, European and Canadian Government, Install puppets of their own, and call it bringing peace to the region? Their troops would be left for many, many years, to silence all the resistance that is left, until the whole US, Europe and Canada, had lost its own will, and just obeyed to the will of the Middle-East to give away their natural resources, for practically nothing, and if US, Europe and Canada would not be willing to bent over and take it, heavy embargo's would be placed, and trade would be made impossible... This is exactly the way the western world treats the rest of the world.

We're not bringing freedom or democracy, our troops protect the investments of the 1%, who has all the power in our societies, the money, the political power, etc., etc... Who are we to mock others to fight for a religion, which in your eyes is bogus and oppressing, while in their eyes our freedom, can be as bogus and oppressive as well... No the West isn't slaved by a God, it's slaved by Money!!! In my opinion this makes no difference, we can all be titled as slaves, and, maybe , just maybe, although I am a atheist, a God is a nicer master than Money is...

Why would all the pro-invaders neglect the responsibility the West has in the birth of movements Like AQ and IS, both are in mayor part a result of the Western way of using the rest of the world as cheap resources, in my opinion. Why are we so arrogant to believe the rest of the world will role over as we say so? Why are we so arrogant to act supersized if they stand up for themselves?

No, we may not like the way they want to live their lives, but who are we to dictate how they may live their lives. What if the Middle-East would dictate us how to live our lives? How many of you would obey the new establishment, without hesitation? I'm sure in many cases the world would be to small. In some ways 9/11 was just a slap in the face... I will not play down all the unnecessary deaths, because every unnecessary death is one to many. Every unnecessary death, no matter if its a civilian, a soldier, a child, a women , a man or someone at age, no matter what believe system they believe in, no matter what is the color of their skin or the name of their God.
Why is the West so scared to of other takes on life, that the only way they want to respond is with violence? Why is violence our only answer?
Look at how many different opinions we have on many subjects, why would we assume, we are the only society who has these differences? Or is it just convenient to look at other societies as just one different opinion? Why do we think, we're so much better than the rest of the world, so we might judge them with our standards? And find them inferior, to be set back on the only right (western) track.

As long as our only response is to sent troops in and convince others just with force, I believe this world will not get any friendlier with the Western world... Because we only do understand force, and so are driving others to use the same methods, and a destructive downward spiral will continue. It will remain a story of the pot and the kettle... In the end it doesn't matter who did start, because their will be no one left to keep the score. Why can't we just share the world, with all our differences? Why do people feel the need to fight?

As Brain already said, I also have a lot of questions... Maybe I have to turn to a God to get them answered...

brianlux

^^^ Great post, Aafke. Our questions, for the most part, are rhetorical. We in the West were all (unless some of you are G.I. generation) born into a world that protects it's interests and have created rifts rather than worked to form peace and understanding. We could have chosen to develop alternative energy sources and limit consumption in order not to rely on imports. We could have chosen to help other countries become self-sufficient rather than dependent. We could have chosen to share our cultures rather than force ours on others and destroy theirs. We could have chosen to work for peace rather than take the easy way our and over and over chose to engage in war. And now we blame everyone else. Can we change? Is it too late? Those are not rhetorical questions.... I hope.

Aafke

Thanks Brain, I sure hope those last questions won't be rhetorical... I sure hope we can change our ways, and start taking responsibility for our own actions... I hope the G7 meeting was a start with this change, by trying to get fossil fuels banned...

gimmesometruth27

i get the fuck out of iraq, get the fuck out of saudi arabia, get the fuck out of afghanistan, get the fuck out of syria, because we are meddling there too you know, and bring everyone home. focus on ourselves and our own country and our own people. let those in the region handle this. if isis wins, isis wins. it will be their job to rule, which we all know they can't figure out what to do besides rape, burn and behead. they will have their own state. and then when they can't rule, someone else in the region will absorb their land and redraw the map of the middle east. i say let someone over there figure it out.

yes, bush and co broke it, but they can't own it. obama inherited it, and he can't own it either. if you can't own something you have to let it go.

going into iraq is the biggest blunder in american history. this will go down in the history books 100 years from now as one of the biggest blunders in world history. it won't say that in american history books, as they do not even speak of vietnam as a military defeat for america. american kids can't be taught that america made a mistake.

DarthMaeglin

Aafke, very well put, and I agree with you on many of your points, especially regarding imposing our way of life on other cultures (I blame Star Trek's Prime Directive for instilling this value in me, lol). However, while we are in large part responsible for many of the groups now fighting us, the prime reason I feel we need to be involved now is that several groups and even governments (IS) have named us as targets in part because they would impose their values on us. They've bluntly said they mean us harm by any means they can (and since direct conflict with Fortress North America is impossible for them, they're going for so-called "soft targets"). More importantly (to me) they've threatened to attack civilians directly on our home soil. I'd prefer we be proactive and take away their means to perform such attacks. And to be clear, in my mind military targets are legitimate in many ways (for example, the U.S.S. Cole versus bombing embassies), while civilians are definitely off limits (I do understand a certain degree of "collateral damage," however our current "war technology" allows for such to be at least minimized). In my opinion, the fire bombing of Tokyo (and even the dropping of the atomic bombs on specifically non-military targets) should have been prosecuted as war crimes, but as we all know, the victors in a war pretty much commit no war crimes (or if they do, it's lower-level individuals that are tried).

I hesitate to bring up the succesful attacks in Canada, as they were both carried out by so-called lone-wolf terrorists, but the image of a soldier shot in the back and dying on the steps of our national war monument are pretty powerful still, not to mention the thought of a soldier run down by a car simply because he wore a uniform (uh-oh, did I just argue against myself there, lol? As well, for me, my outrage stems in part from the fact my sister's (and her sons') school in Ottawa being placed on lockdown during the Parliament attack. Thankfully that proved unnecessary.). Both those attacks were at least inspired by the groups we're now (still) fighting.

You've brought a couple situations to mind for me here. I'm a bit young to have fully appreciated it, but South Africa was in the end forced to change their way of life (apartheid) via more peaceful means (sanctions and international ostracizing), though it inevitably took longer than military action might have. I hope we can all agree that change was brought about for the best.

What IS seems to be engaged in on many levels is a cultural genocide, something that I feel the world cannot stand aside and watch (even though we have many times unfortunately). It's somewhat similar to how I'd thought the Taliban needed to be removed from power when they began destroying world heritage sites before 9/11 occurred (admittedly at that point it was likely too late to prevent the attacks). While I'll own up to being a non-denominational Christian (where one of the prime commandments is to worship only that God, I would never prevent others for following their own beliefs.

It's a strange discussion we've got going here, saying that we shouldn't do things that have been done by virtually every culture at some point in history (wiping out or just conquering other cultures), even our own (think native North Americans, though even they were immigrants, tens of thousands of years before us). Unfortunately it's one of those topics that there are no "right" answers, only lots of room for theories and opinions.

P.S. If I'm not making sense in this post or rambling, please forgive me, I've only just started my second cup of coffee, lol.

rr165892

Aafke said:

DarthMaeglin said:

mickeyrat said:

Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?

In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.

As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.

I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.

Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.

It's funny... All people I've spoken, who claimed they where pro-invasion of the Middle-East, gave the same arguments... Like the fat printed above... Not only in the latests conflicts in the Middle-East, but with all conflicts anywhere and everywhere... Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down. AQ was making a point on 9/11 to take our Western nose out of their business. For once they have managed to make their point in a similar way the West has done this for centuries, to take action at a country they saw as the great evil. But doesn't the West have done this same type of action or much. much worse for centuries? Don't we invade countries for many years in which we not only attack once, but invade with many troops and assassinate whole governments, because we doesn't accept their way of life on principle and will always work to take them down? I name, basically all invasions by the West since WW II...

Why is it so difficult for people to look at this from an other perspective as their own? How would you feel if the Middle East would send in troops to assassinate the US, European and Canadian Government, Install puppets of their own, and call it bringing peace to the region? Their troops would be left for many, many years, to silence all the resistance that is left, until the whole US, Europe and Canada, had lost its own will, and just obeyed to the will of the Middle-East to give away their natural resources, for practically nothing, and if US, Europe and Canada would not be willing to bent over and take it, heavy embargo's would be placed, and trade would be made impossible... This is exactly the way the western world treats the rest of the world.

We're not bringing freedom or democracy, our troops protect the investments of the 1%, who has all the power in our societies, the money, the political power, etc., etc... Who are we to mock others to fight for a religion, which in your eyes is bogus and oppressing, while in their eyes our freedom, can be as bogus and oppressive as well... No the West isn't slaved by a God, it's slaved by Money!!! In my opinion this makes no difference, we can all be titled as slaves, and, maybe , just maybe, although I am a atheist, a God is a nicer master than Money is...

Why would all the pro-invaders neglect the responsibility the West has in the birth of movements Like AQ and IS, both are in mayor part a result of the Western way of using the rest of the world as cheap resources, in my opinion. Why are we so arrogant to believe the rest of the world will role over as we say so? Why are we so arrogant to act supersized if they stand up for themselves?

No, we may not like the way they want to live their lives, but who are we to dictate how they may live their lives. What if the Middle-East would dictate us how to live our lives? How many of you would obey the new establishment, without hesitation? I'm sure in many cases the world would be to small. In some ways 9/11 was just a slap in the face... I will not play down all the unnecessary deaths, because every unnecessary death is one to many. Every unnecessary death, no matter if its a civilian, a soldier, a child, a women , a man or someone at age, no matter what believe system they believe in, no matter what is the color of their skin or the name of their God.
Why is the West so scared to of other takes on life, that the only way they want to respond is with violence? Why is violence our only answer?
Look at how many different opinions we have on many subjects, why would we assume, we are the only society who has these differences? Or is it just convenient to look at other societies as just one different opinion? Why do we think, we're so much better than the rest of the world, so we might judge them with our standards? And find them inferior, to be set back on the only right (western) track.

As long as our only response is to sent troops in and convince others just with force, I believe this world will not get any friendlier with the Western world... Because we only do understand force, and so are driving others to use the same methods, and a destructive downward spiral will continue. It will remain a story of the pot and the kettle... In the end it doesn't matter who did start, because their will be no one left to keep the score. Why can't we just share the world, with all our differences? Why do people feel the need to fight?

As Brain already said, I also have a lot of questions... Maybe I have to turn to a God to get them answered...

Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.

I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live.
That has to go both ways right?
Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.

I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.

It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.

Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences?
I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.

badbrains

rr165892 said:

Aafke said:

DarthMaeglin said:

mickeyrat said:

Who the fuck are you talking about with this "we" bullshit?

In case you were unaware, Canadian soldiers are on the ground as advisors as well (and we suffered a friendly fire fatality as a result), and Canadian airmen are participating in strikes against IS, hence the "we". So, to use a term thrown out earlier (in a somewhat different context), Canada, as a nation, does in fact have skin in the game this time around.

As far as the question at hand, I see the current situation as the inevitable development of having an artificial deadline placed on what was essentially a war. The enemy knew they only had to hide in the sand until the "coalition of the willing" pulled out their troops.

I was (and am) proud that Canada stood aside in 2003, but am equally pleased to see our troops involved in the current actions. In part I see it as being more proactive before IS gets the means to do something similar to 9/11. Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down.

Here in Canada we've been lucky thus far to have prevented many (unfortunately not all though) of the attacks aimed at us, in part because we're aware we're on both AQ and IS's hit lists.

It's funny... All people I've spoken, who claimed they where pro-invasion of the Middle-East, gave the same arguments... Like the fat printed above... Not only in the latests conflicts in the Middle-East, but with all conflicts anywhere and everywhere... Unfortunately we're talking about a group that doesn't accept our way of life on principle and will always work to take us down. AQ was making a point on 9/11 to take our Western nose out of their business. For once they have managed to make their point in a similar way the West has done this for centuries, to take action at a country they saw as the great evil. But doesn't the West have done this same type of action or much. much worse for centuries? Don't we invade countries for many years in which we not only attack once, but invade with many troops and assassinate whole governments, because we doesn't accept their way of life on principle and will always work to take them down? I name, basically all invasions by the West since WW II...

Why is it so difficult for people to look at this from an other perspective as their own? How would you feel if the Middle East would send in troops to assassinate the US, European and Canadian Government, Install puppets of their own, and call it bringing peace to the region? Their troops would be left for many, many years, to silence all the resistance that is left, until the whole US, Europe and Canada, had lost its own will, and just obeyed to the will of the Middle-East to give away their natural resources, for practically nothing, and if US, Europe and Canada would not be willing to bent over and take it, heavy embargo's would be placed, and trade would be made impossible... This is exactly the way the western world treats the rest of the world.

We're not bringing freedom or democracy, our troops protect the investments of the 1%, who has all the power in our societies, the money, the political power, etc., etc... Who are we to mock others to fight for a religion, which in your eyes is bogus and oppressing, while in their eyes our freedom, can be as bogus and oppressive as well... No the West isn't slaved by a God, it's slaved by Money!!! In my opinion this makes no difference, we can all be titled as slaves, and, maybe , just maybe, although I am a atheist, a God is a nicer master than Money is...

Why would all the pro-invaders neglect the responsibility the West has in the birth of movements Like AQ and IS, both are in mayor part a result of the Western way of using the rest of the world as cheap resources, in my opinion. Why are we so arrogant to believe the rest of the world will role over as we say so? Why are we so arrogant to act supersized if they stand up for themselves?

No, we may not like the way they want to live their lives, but who are we to dictate how they may live their lives. What if the Middle-East would dictate us how to live our lives? How many of you would obey the new establishment, without hesitation? I'm sure in many cases the world would be to small. In some ways 9/11 was just a slap in the face... I will not play down all the unnecessary deaths, because every unnecessary death is one to many. Every unnecessary death, no matter if its a civilian, a soldier, a child, a women , a man or someone at age, no matter what believe system they believe in, no matter what is the color of their skin or the name of their God.
Why is the West so scared to of other takes on life, that the only way they want to respond is with violence? Why is violence our only answer?
Look at how many different opinions we have on many subjects, why would we assume, we are the only society who has these differences? Or is it just convenient to look at other societies as just one different opinion? Why do we think, we're so much better than the rest of the world, so we might judge them with our standards? And find them inferior, to be set back on the only right (western) track.

As long as our only response is to sent troops in and convince others just with force, I believe this world will not get any friendlier with the Western world... Because we only do understand force, and so are driving others to use the same methods, and a destructive downward spiral will continue. It will remain a story of the pot and the kettle... In the end it doesn't matter who did start, because their will be no one left to keep the score. Why can't we just share the world, with all our differences? Why do people feel the need to fight?

As Brain already said, I also have a lot of questions... Maybe I have to turn to a God to get them answered...

Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.

I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live.
That has to go both ways right?
Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.

I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.

It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.

Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences?
I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.

But that's just it Ryan, we're not allowing others to live the way they choose. We're always meddling, and now it's blatant and people still refuse to believe. It's like "we" can do no wrong.

callen

I get religion forced on me almost daily. Want to guess the religion? Hint it's not Islam.

mickeyrat

callen said:

I get religion forced on me almost daily. Want to guess the religion? Hint it's not Islam.

Capitalism?

Aafke

rr165892 said:

Don't confuse pro invasions arnd war mongering with support for wanting to halt IS and its violent fundamentalist agenda from further advancement.

I could give two shits about how anyone on this planet wants to worship.Live and let live.
That has to go both ways right?
Trying to spread and force Sharia law as the only way to live whether you like it or not sounds like the exact opposite of freedom.This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it.

I watched a 60 min last night where a cleric and his group of biggots in London said they will never stop until Europe and USA are under sharia law.They support IS and have been tied to facilitating recruitment of the disenfranchised Muslim youth with there social media campaigns and hate filled agenda.

It's going to get a lot worse and eventually a lot of of unnecessary innocent blood will continue to spill.From both the Western and Islamic worlds.

Aafke,I will ask you the question you ask.Why can't we just share the world,with all our differences?
I agree with the answer we should be able to do that.But Unfortunatly although our ability to let others worship and live free, as they want is not reciprocated.Our way of life is not ok with them.

I disagree with you on a lot of statements in your response a printed fat in the quote...

Lets examine them one by one... First of all This is no longer a middle eastern issue.Europe has its hands full with these people not wanting to stop until everything is how they want it. So strange You make them just sound like people from our own societies...

As long as Western societies keep delivering troops to the Middle East, your completely right, the issue isn't just middle eastern. As the second part of this statement, it is bullshit! Europe has treated their Muslim citizens as second hand citizens, for decades, They were scary, dumb, good enough to do our dirty work, as long as we had enough jobs to be picky, but not worthy to have the same rights as the white European citizens. They were allowed to stay as long as their labor was needed but were supposed to return, when the job market didn't need them any more. When they stayed, on paper they were treated equal but on the streets, they still remained second hand citizens, uneducated, and most of all unwanted. If you do threat people long enough this way, they get the feeling it doesn't matter how hard they try, they will never be accepted. Therefor it is quite understandable that second and third generation Muslim citizens, are drawn to the statements of the IS. For Europe it is easy to blame the radical Imams, because if they take the blame we don't have to look at our own responsibility for these radical turn of these youth.

Besides, the radicalization of the Muslim youth, is one of the overestimated terrors Europe is facing at the moment., The financial crisis, the possible upcoming bankruptcy of Greece, and the hundreds of death boat refugees on the Mediterranean Sea, and the increasing numbers of refugees out of the Middle East and Africa and the TTIP, (Free trade law with the US) are the real problems Europe is facing at the moment. Politicians need a scapegoat, and who better than the already feared Mulsim to blame all the shit on. Sounds like the same way the Jews have been isolated and treated for about fifty years in Europe before WW II broke out...

About you agreeing with me... No you don't, lets be honest about it... You disagree with me, and that's fine with me,. You think it's better to bomb the shit out of the Middle East in case the IS mindset will spread. I do Strongly disagree with your view on this case. I Believe where two fight, there are two to blame, and the one who invade an other country, can talk all they want, but must also have the courage to look at its own actions... If you believe in the freedom of speech, you must apply this freedom to all, also to the ones you disagree with fundamentally like IS.

callen

mickeyrat said:

callen said:

I get religion forced on me almost daily. Want to guess the religion? Hint it's not Islam.

Capitalism?

Ha. Not quite buy warily similar in money pursuit.

brianlux

Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!

No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.

*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.

callen

Brian Briam Brian

We like rallying against the other team. Feels good, therapeutic.

Git them Evildoers taking away my freedom.


Watching old episodes of Family Guy that makes fun of our hidden agenda of securing oil. Actually it's sad.