As much as I hate Cnn's Sonny Hostin, she makes a good point. In order to prove that the driver killed gray by driving carelessly, she will almost have to have testimony from one of the other officers. How can they prove otherwise?
There's no way any of those 5 other officers turn on the driver is there??? Even to save their own ass.
My take is they are charging him for stopping the vehicle and checking on him multiple times without providing him medical attention. Yes they need some kind of testimony from the officers or the other prisoner to prove it. Maybe they weren't slamming him around the back of the van. I'm sure the prosecutor has much more info than I, hence the charges. It will be interesting to see how solid the case is. I hope they wouldn't bring a weak case if these guys didn't do what they are accused of. The resulting not guilty verdicts would make this last week look minor.
I still don't know what the initial arrest was for. I'm sure it will come up in trial. But if there's weak testimony from witnesses, grainy video evidence, and unreliable witnesses then why wouldn't the cops stick together on one story?
My guess the FOP lawyer will do everything he can to have them maintain the same story. From what he said today, he will be attacking protocol. That these cops followed protocol and the guy died. Which wouldn't necessarily mean acquittal across the board. But could definitely lead to lesser convictions.
Will this trial be individually tried or will it be all at ince?
So, am I missing something here? The bail for a kid smashing a police car in a riot is $500,000 and the bail for the cops charged in the death of Gray is between $250,000 and $350,000. How does that make any kind of sense?
while i agree that lots of people are in prison for what should be minor drug offenses the fact is crime as a whole in this country is lower than it ever has been. i don't think that's a coincidence.
The lower crime rate very likely has nothing to do with the high rate of incarceration for non-violent crimes in the US. Crime rates are down over virtually the whole world; at least in the developed areas, from Asia to Europe. The American penal system can't take any of the credit for this, and should get a lot of the blame for a whole host of social ills.
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So, am I missing something here? The bail for a kid smashing a police car in a riot is $500,000 and the bail for the cops charged in the death of Gray is between $250,000 and $350,000. How does that make any kind of sense?
while i agree that lots of people are in prison for what should be minor drug offenses the fact is crime as a whole in this country is lower than it ever has been. i don't think that's a coincidence.
The lower crime rate very likely has nothing to do with the high rate of incarceration for non-violent crimes in the US. Crime rates are down over virtually the whole world; at least in the developed areas, from Asia to Europe. The American penal system can't take any of the credit for this, and should get a lot of the blame for a whole host of social ills.
Look who leads the pack in incarceration rate percentage. What does that tell us?
Could it be that Gray was injured during the initial arrest ...
Absolutely could have. Something doesn't add up here. I've been looking around this morning for some statement from the prosecutor detailing how Gray suffered his injuries. The officers have been charged so there must be a theory and evidence to back it up. Yet everything I read focuses on the legality/illegality of the arrest and the failure of the officers to buckle him into the van. Nothing discussed HOW his spine became severed and his voice box crushed. Neither of those injuries just happen. Something (someone) caused them. Very strange.
Could it be that Gray was injured during the initial arrest ...
Absolutely could have. Something doesn't add up here. I've been looking around this morning for some statement from the prosecutor detailing how Gray suffered his injuries. The officers have been charged so there must be a theory and evidence to back it up. Yet everything I read focuses on the legality/illegality of the arrest and the failure of the officers to buckle him into the van. Nothing discussed HOW his spine became severed and his voice box crushed. Neither of those injuries just happen. Something (someone) caused them. Very strange.
Yeah I believe something happened to him during the initial arrest if you look at the video his feet are dragging like he could not move them cause the video starts at the point of him on the ground and officers on top of him ...
Could it be that Gray was injured during the initial arrest ...
Absolutely could have. Something doesn't add up here. I've been looking around this morning for some statement from the prosecutor detailing how Gray suffered his injuries. The officers have been charged so there must be a theory and evidence to back it up. Yet everything I read focuses on the legality/illegality of the arrest and the failure of the officers to buckle him into the van. Nothing discussed HOW his spine became severed and his voice box crushed. Neither of those injuries just happen. Something (someone) caused them. Very strange.
Yeah I believe something happened to him during the initial arrest if you look at the video his feet are dragging like he could not move them cause the video starts at the point of him on the ground and officers on top of him ...
True Jose, his feet were dragging and he was screaming in some serious pain. I have a feeling we won't know the exact truth for a few years when one of these officers gets a big fat check from somebody to tell all.
I usually shy away from the videos and just watched this one for the first time. Does the guy recording say something about tasing Gray? That might explain why he was having trouble walking. And it does kinda look like he stands up on his own right before going into the van.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
I'm troubled that we don't know what they are accused of doing. Not the charges - we know what those are. I mean how and what. Did they beat him? Slam him around the van? Something happened to this guy...what was it? These charges came in so quick but aside from not following procedure and maybe negligence I'm not sure what the prosecution's theory is. Can't recall another case like that.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
they waited for the autopsy results. why can't you comprehend that? it had zero to do with the riots.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
they waited for the autopsy results. why can't you comprehend that? it had zero to do with the riots.
Actually, BSL isn't alone in his thinking here... Harvard Law Prof. Alan Dershowitz agrees.
"Criminal charges filed Friday against six Baltimore police officers in the death of Freddie Gray were based on "politics and crowd control," not justice, renowned civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz tells Newsmax TV.
"This is a very sad day for justice . . . Today had nothing to do with justice. Today was crowd control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots," Dershowitz said on "The Steve Malzberg Show."
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
they waited for the autopsy results. why can't you comprehend that? it had zero to do with the riots.
Actually, BSL isn't alone in his thinking here... Harvard Law Prof. Alan Dershowitz agrees.
"Criminal charges filed Friday against six Baltimore police officers in the death of Freddie Gray were based on "politics and crowd control," not justice, renowned civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz tells Newsmax TV.
"This is a very sad day for justice . . . Today had nothing to do with justice. Today was crowd control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots," Dershowitz said on "The Steve Malzberg Show."
I agree with Dershowitz here. BSL too if this is what she was trying to say, but it isn't how I read her posts. My take was that she was crediting the rioters with bringing these charges and seeing justice done, whereas Dershowitz is saying the opposite, that justice wasn't done and these charges are just political performance art.
Interesting that the riots, as bad as they were, caused the nation to look at Baltimore, which led to the charging of the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray death.
Without the riots, would this have happened??
I hope the prosecutor brought these charges because the evidence warranted it, not because of the riots. Prosecuting because of public pressure isn't how the system is supposed to work any more than police killing a young man in their custody is.
Right. But if it wasn't for the urgency of the riots, who knows if they pursued real answers to begin with. The police and the rest of the country ignored the peaceful protests. The riots forced the world to look at Baltimore, who knows if there was not the demand for attention, the Gray case may have been swept under the rug.
Maybe. These charges came in quickly, so we hope the evidence is there to support them. The possibility exists that they were filed to help ease tensions and end the protests. If there isn't any hard evidence this will reflect poorly on the prosecutor.
They did come in quickly. What was the mayor doing during the peaceful protests? She sure had time, the city had time. The police had time, since they certainly weren't coming forward making any statements. But when Baltimore was forced into the spotlight with riots? Suddenly, something had to be done. There was no more of the officials sleeping regarding the story. Sure, if there's no hard evidence, it will reflect poorly on the prosecutor. But we'll see...
they waited for the autopsy results. why can't you comprehend that? it had zero to do with the riots.
Actually, BSL isn't alone in his thinking here... Harvard Law Prof. Alan Dershowitz agrees.
"Criminal charges filed Friday against six Baltimore police officers in the death of Freddie Gray were based on "politics and crowd control," not justice, renowned civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz tells Newsmax TV.
"This is a very sad day for justice . . . Today had nothing to do with justice. Today was crowd control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots," Dershowitz said on "The Steve Malzberg Show."
I agree with Dershowitz here. BSL too if this is what she was trying to say, but it isn't how I read her posts. My take was that she was crediting the rioters with bringing these charges and seeing justice done, whereas Dershowitz is saying the opposite, that justice wasn't done and these charges are just political performance art.
BSL wasn't saying quite the same thing, but in both cases, the motivation to action was the violent protest.
I meant that the city of Baltimore could no longer ignore the problem when there is deviant upheaval in the form of destroying neighborhoods. They could ignore it before then, which they did. I am not crediting the rioters for bringing charges, however, if they didn't riot and cause a national uproar? Who knows what would have (and have not) happened.
I do think that these charges could very well be political performance art as the outcome of the national attention.
Is there a working theory on what specifically led to this man's death? Did they beat him? Slam him around in the truck? Something else? None of the above?
Here's my theory having heard the young woman who is suing the Baltimore police for the rough ride she endured and what I have heard and read from various news sources. Whether what I posit is what happened, I don't know and I think we may never know exactly what happened other than his spinal cord was nearly completely severed just below his head.
After being arrested and placed in the van and while on the ride to pick up the other arrestee, he was actively complaining, yelling kicking the metal panel in front of him, etc. maybe the cops gave him a rough ride to quiet him down. They pick up the other arrestee and put him in the van on the other side of the divider. He continues to loudly protest, screaming and yelling and kicking the divider. Maybe the cops give him some more rough ride and he doesn't chill out. At some point the cops stop and put leg shackles on him and lay him on the floor on his side of the divider. He continues to protest so the cops speed up and hit the brakes. He slides forward along the floor and hits his head with enough force on the partition that separates the driving/passenger cab from the detainee area. He hits with such force that his spinal cord is nearly severed and he has the imprint of a bolt from the partition on his head. The force exerted and the injury is typical of suicide by jumping victims or car crash victims as that is the type of force to nearly sever your spinal cord. I heard that his spinal cord was 80% severed.
Did they intend to kill him? Probably not. Was it a wanton disregard for a human life and reckless endangerment? Probably. Will a jury convict them? Remains to be seen.
I think the grand jury indictment may provide a high level version of events with enough evidence to have the grand jury indict. That information may or may not be public. I'm not sure if it's sealed and if it is, you won't hear the evidence until trial. If it's unsealed, it should be available and reported on.
Again, just my theory based on various news sources. Plausible? Sure. What actually happened? Will we ever know the truth?
Here's my theory having heard the young woman who is suing the Baltimore police for the rough ride she endured and what I have heard and read from various news sources. Whether what I posit is what happened, I don't know and I think we may never know exactly what happened other than his spinal cord was nearly completely severed just below his head.
After being arrested and placed in the van and while on the ride to pick up the other arrestee, he was actively complaining, yelling kicking the metal panel in front of him, etc. maybe the cops gave him a rough ride to quiet him down. They pick up the other arrestee and put him in the van on the other side of the divider. He continues to loudly protest, screaming and yelling and kicking the divider. Maybe the cops give him some more rough ride and he doesn't chill out. At some point the cops stop and put leg shackles on him and lay him on the floor on his side of the divider. He continues to protest so the cops speed up and hit the brakes. He slides forward along the floor and hits his head with enough force on the partition that separates the driving/passenger cab from the detainee area. He hits with such force that his spinal cord is nearly severed and he has the imprint of a bolt from the partition on his head. The force exerted and the injury is typical of suicide by jumping victims or car crash victims as that is the type of force to nearly sever your spinal cord. I heard that his spinal cord was 80% severed.
Did they intend to kill him? Probably not. Was it a wanton disregard for a human life and reckless endangerment? Probably. Will a jury convict them? Remains to be seen.
I think the grand jury indictment may provide a high level version of events with enough evidence to have the grand jury indict. That information may or may not be public. I'm not sure if it's sealed and if it is, you won't hear the evidence until trial. If it's unsealed, it should be available and reported on.
Again, just my theory based on various news sources. Plausible? Sure. What actually happened? Will we ever know the truth?
That is plausible. Perhaps even probable. What concerns me in this case is that it isn't clear what the prosecutor's theory is. We've seen charges filed and indictments handed down...but what are the authorities saying these cops did? Maybe its out there somewhere and I just missed it. If not, I don't think I've ever seen a case like this before.
so crime and even murder is way up in Baltimore since the police have scaled back and are no longer arresting or 'harrassing' (their term not mine) the so-called thugs (and yes that is what they are who are committing these types of violent crimes) since the riots. of course now those who complained about the police efforts before the riots are now complaining because the police aren't doing enough. be funny if it wasn't so predictable.
Comments
My guess the FOP lawyer will do everything he can to have them maintain the same story. From what he said today, he will be attacking protocol. That these cops followed protocol and the guy died. Which wouldn't necessarily mean acquittal across the board. But could definitely lead to lesser convictions.
Will this trial be individually tried or will it be all at ince?
Source
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/baltimore-rioters-parents-500000-bail-allen-bullock
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/6-baltimore-police-charged-in-freddie-gray-death-released-on-bail-1.3057248
http://dudecomedy.com/police-k9-bites-suspects-face-and-wont-let-go-graphic/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#/media/File:Prisoner_population_rate_world_map.svg
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"Criminal charges filed Friday against six Baltimore police officers in the death of Freddie Gray were based on "politics and crowd control," not justice, renowned civil rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz tells Newsmax TV.
"This is a very sad day for justice . . . Today had nothing to do with justice. Today was crowd control. Everything was motivated by a threat of riots and a desire to prevent riots," Dershowitz said on "The Steve Malzberg Show."
On another note, nothing surprising here.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7190262
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I do think that these charges could very well be political performance art as the outcome of the national attention.
Freddie Gray: Grand jury indicts 6 officers in police-custody death
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
After being arrested and placed in the van and while on the ride to pick up the other arrestee, he was actively complaining, yelling kicking the metal panel in front of him, etc. maybe the cops gave him a rough ride to quiet him down. They pick up the other arrestee and put him in the van on the other side of the divider. He continues to loudly protest, screaming and yelling and kicking the divider. Maybe the cops give him some more rough ride and he doesn't chill out. At some point the cops stop and put leg shackles on him and lay him on the floor on his side of the divider. He continues to protest so the cops speed up and hit the brakes. He slides forward along the floor and hits his head with enough force on the partition that separates the driving/passenger cab from the detainee area. He hits with such force that his spinal cord is nearly severed and he has the imprint of a bolt from the partition on his head. The force exerted and the injury is typical of suicide by jumping victims or car crash victims as that is the type of force to nearly sever your spinal cord. I heard that his spinal cord was 80% severed.
Did they intend to kill him? Probably not. Was it a wanton disregard for a human life and reckless endangerment? Probably. Will a jury convict them? Remains to be seen.
I think the grand jury indictment may provide a high level version of events with enough evidence to have the grand jury indict. That information may or may not be public. I'm not sure if it's sealed and if it is, you won't hear the evidence until trial. If it's unsealed, it should be available and reported on.
Again, just my theory based on various news sources. Plausible? Sure. What actually happened? Will we ever know the truth?
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