Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,767
Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
I don't understand the point or relevance of any of this. If we go back thousand of years and say who lived where, are we really going to go back to that? And how far back do we go? At some point, we would have to declare all countries belong to Africans. Go back further, and we need to turn everything over to sea creatures and non-human primates. Maybe that's not a bad idea.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
This is not the thread to talk about whether the story of Jesus is accurate or not...especially since writings at the time he was supposed to exist do not exist. JFC he walked on water and nobody wrote about it until a few hundred years later?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,767
Should we perhaps have a separate thread for the current situation/ war in Israel and Palestine (Gaza and West bank)?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
I don't understand the point or relevance of any of this. If we go back thousand of years and say who lived where, are we really going to go back to that? And how far back do we go? At some point, we would have to declare all countries belong to Africans. Go back further, and we need to turn everything over to sea creatures and non-human primates. Maybe that's not a bad idea.
Because ignoring the past is bias. Ignoring the peace treaties is bias. Ignoring the military invasions is bias. Ignoring the terrorist activities is bias.
This was israels land thousands of years before Muslim existed, of which there is archeological evidence. Why are Palestinians obsessed with destroying this evidence? Because it hurts the lies they try to sell to the international community
Palestine signed a peace treaty to share this land. If you were Muslim, you have what, 20 or 30 or 50 secular nations from which to live? If you were Israeli, you’d have one, of which Palestine wants to illegally seize a huge portion, which they agreed not to do.
only Palestine insists on getting 100% of what they want, and refused to abide by the treaty or negotiate further as was required by the agreements.
I can't say I'm 100% up on the history of the conflict but I know that Israel basically took a bunch of land from Palestine upon the failure of the attack in 1948. Repelling the attack was absolutely justified but taking the land that they had has created this mess.
Just give it the fuck back and give them access to the Gaza Strip.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,767
Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
I don't understand the point or relevance of any of this. If we go back thousand of years and say who lived where, are we really going to go back to that? And how far back do we go? At some point, we would have to declare all countries belong to Africans. Go back further, and we need to turn everything over to sea creatures and non-human primates. Maybe that's not a bad idea.
Because ignoring the past is bias. Ignoring the peace treaties is bias. Ignoring the military invasions is bias. Ignoring the terrorist activities is bias.
This was israels land thousands of years before Muslim existed, of which there is archeological evidence. Why are Palestinians obsessed with destroying this evidence? Because it hurts the lies they try to sell to the international community
Palestine signed a peace treaty to share this land. If you were Muslim, you have what, 20 or 30 or 50 secular nations from which to live? If you were Israeli, you’d have one, of which Palestine wants to illegally seize a huge portion, which they agreed not to do.
only Palestine insists on getting 100% of what they want, and refused to abide by the treaty or negotiate further as was required by the agreements.
We can argue this all day long, but it won't change a thing. I believe both sides have some serious issues. I have to leave it at that.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I can't help but wonder how the leadership of Hamas feels about the opinions of this person. I'm pretty sure she would be executed for bringing shame on her family and religion due to her former career.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
I am actually pretty familiar, but I also know how futile it is discussing this with someone who obviously isn't able to speak objectively about it. I have no skin in the game. it seems you do. and just because we disagree doesn't make you right. I've seen enough Israeli aggression in my time and violation of international law to know it isn't as black and white as you think it is. just a quick google search and they've violated 28 UN resolutions.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
I can't say I'm 100% up on the history of the conflict but I know that Israel basically took a bunch of land from Palestine upon the failure of the attack in 1948. Repelling the attack was absolutely justified but taking the land that they had has created this mess.
Just give it the fuck back and give them access to the Gaza Strip.
Making low information and inaccurate comments is not helpful. That first sentence seems to be science fiction at best. Maybe take time to learn the complexities of this difficult situation before blabbing off on a message board.
just give back fucking Indiana to the Indians is the equivalent of your biased comment.
I can't say I'm 100% up on the history of the conflict but I know that Israel basically took a bunch of land from Palestine upon the failure of the attack in 1948. Repelling the attack was absolutely justified but taking the land that they had has created this mess.
Just give it the fuck back and give them access to the Gaza Strip.
Making low information and inaccurate comments is not helpful. That first sentence seems to be science fiction at best. Maybe take time to learn the complexities of this difficult situation before blabbing off on a message board.
just give back fucking Indiana to the Indians is the equivalent of your biased comment.
But it's not fiction. Palestinians were expelled from their land in 1948.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
I am actually pretty familiar, but I also know how futile it is discussing this with someone who obviously isn't able to speak objectively about it. I have no skin in the game. it seems you do. and just because we disagree doesn't make you right. I've seen enough Israeli aggression in my time and violation of international law to know it isn't as black and white as you think it is. just a quick google search and they've violated 28 UN resolutions.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
Jesus is a fairy tale?
It’s unfair to comment on UN security council action and not distinguish from the UN general assembly, and why the GA can act in a biased manner and the security council usually does not. If you have something specific that says the west bank is 100% Palestine, please share. Many of the resolutions you are referring to are basically a popularity contest and since there are an overwhelming number of Muslim countries in the GA. That’s why the US needs to veto many UNSC resolutions. I’d love for Netanyahu to leave and have no more settlement expansion, but anyone thinking Israel can leave the West Bank and still have secure borders is living in a fairly tale.
Tell me instead about the peace deal Palestine signed to share the land
There are two treaties approved by the UN in the 1990s that you are ignoring. They signed a deal to share the land, and immediately the PLO was replaced by Hamas, a violent, militant terrorist group. Only Hamas wants the deal to be 100% their way. Israel and the PA and the PLO were willing to share and negotiate
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza fifteen years ago and look where that got them. That’s why there are checkpoints in the West Bank to answer your earlier comment.
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
I am actually pretty familiar, but I also know how futile it is discussing this with someone who obviously isn't able to speak objectively about it. I have no skin in the game. it seems you do. and just because we disagree doesn't make you right. I've seen enough Israeli aggression in my time and violation of international law to know it isn't as black and white as you think it is. just a quick google search and they've violated 28 UN resolutions.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
Jesus is a fairy tale?
It’s unfair to comment on UN security council action and not distinguish from the UN general assembly, and why the GA can act in a biased manner and the security council usually does not. If you have something specific that says the west bank is 100% Palestine, please share. Many of the resolutions you are referring to are basically a popularity contest and since there are an overwhelming number of Muslim countries in the GA. That’s why the US needs to veto many UNSC resolutions. I’d love for Netanyahu to leave and have no more settlement expansion, but anyone thinking Israel can leave the West Bank and still have secure borders is living in a fairly tale.
Tell me instead about the peace deal Palestine signed to share the land
There are two treaties approved by the UN in the 1990s that you are ignoring. They signed a deal to share the land, and immediately the PLO was replaced by Hamas, a violent, militant terrorist group. Only Hamas wants the deal to be 100% their way. Israel and the PA and the PLO were willing to share and negotiate
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza fifteen years ago and look where that got them. That’s why there are checkpoints in the West Bank to answer your earlier comment.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,930
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,767
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
I am actually pretty familiar, but I also know how futile it is discussing this with someone who obviously isn't able to speak objectively about it. I have no skin in the game. it seems you do. and just because we disagree doesn't make you right. I've seen enough Israeli aggression in my time and violation of international law to know it isn't as black and white as you think it is. just a quick google search and they've violated 28 UN resolutions.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
Jesus is a fairy tale?
It’s unfair to comment on UN security council action and not distinguish from the UN general assembly, and why the GA can act in a biased manner and the security council usually does not. If you have something specific that says the west bank is 100% Palestine, please share. Many of the resolutions you are referring to are basically a popularity contest and since there are an overwhelming number of Muslim countries in the GA. That’s why the US needs to veto many UNSC resolutions. I’d love for Netanyahu to leave and have no more settlement expansion, but anyone thinking Israel can leave the West Bank and still have secure borders is living in a fairly tale.
Tell me instead about the peace deal Palestine signed to share the land
There are two treaties approved by the UN in the 1990s that you are ignoring. They signed a deal to share the land, and immediately the PLO was replaced by Hamas, a violent, militant terrorist group. Only Hamas wants the deal to be 100% their way. Israel and the PA and the PLO were willing to share and negotiate
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza fifteen years ago and look where that got them. That’s why there are checkpoints in the West Bank to answer your earlier comment.
Please stop spreading lies that Israel occupies the West Bank as they have had claims to much of that land thousands of years before Muslim religion was founded. It is the Arabs who have refused to negotiate peace.
I feel like this would be like Russia complaining that Ukraine doesn’t want to negotiate.
Is there evidence the land of Ukraine was part of Russia in the Bible, and archeological evidence to back that up?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
I am actually pretty familiar, but I also know how futile it is discussing this with someone who obviously isn't able to speak objectively about it. I have no skin in the game. it seems you do. and just because we disagree doesn't make you right. I've seen enough Israeli aggression in my time and violation of international law to know it isn't as black and white as you think it is. just a quick google search and they've violated 28 UN resolutions.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
Jesus is a fairy tale?
It’s unfair to comment on UN security council action and not distinguish from the UN general assembly, and why the GA can act in a biased manner and the security council usually does not. If you have something specific that says the west bank is 100% Palestine, please share. Many of the resolutions you are referring to are basically a popularity contest and since there are an overwhelming number of Muslim countries in the GA. That’s why the US needs to veto many UNSC resolutions. I’d love for Netanyahu to leave and have no more settlement expansion, but anyone thinking Israel can leave the West Bank and still have secure borders is living in a fairly tale.
Tell me instead about the peace deal Palestine signed to share the land
There are two treaties approved by the UN in the 1990s that you are ignoring. They signed a deal to share the land, and immediately the PLO was replaced by Hamas, a violent, militant terrorist group. Only Hamas wants the deal to be 100% their way. Israel and the PA and the PLO were willing to share and negotiate
Israel fully withdrew from Gaza fifteen years ago and look where that got them. That’s why there are checkpoints in the West Bank to answer your earlier comment.
Hughbaby, I refuse to enter the (single letter) zone... so I'll brush up elsewhere!
Lex, thx for some learning 👉
This topic makes me miss Hedo, but I'm sure she wouldn't miss this human crap! Basically, more killing in God's name with a God that's nowhere to be found conveniently?
You hit the nail on the head, Tish, regarding more killing in the name of God. God and resources, the top two catalysts of war.
I hesitated to use anything even remotely humorous in this thread but this situation creates a tension so brittle it just feels like it's going to snap at times.
The one thing I've gotten out of all this has been the motivation to again try to learn more about this part of the world. What I've found in the past and find more than ever today is that the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so convoluted, so rife with confusion, so double barreled in terms of "bad guys/good guys" going both ways, and so overwhelming in the terrible impact it all has on ordinary people in those lands just trying to get by and have a life. It's a huge messy tangle of trouble. The Middle East in general is one of those places where trouble has brewed more intensely that a lot of other places and right now the Israeli/Palestine region is one gigantic nuclear plant going into meltdown.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,930
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Just poppin' in to say that while I don't expect to hear most rock n' roll bands chime in on world affairs, when a rock n' roll band does position themselves as activists it becomes notable when they're loud vs when they're quiet
Hughbaby, I refuse to enter the (single letter) zone... so I'll brush up elsewhere!
Lex, thx for some learning 👉
This topic makes me miss Hedo, but I'm sure she wouldn't miss this human crap! Basically, more killing in God's name with a God that's nowhere to be found conveniently?
You hit the nail on the head, Tish, regarding more killing in the name of God. God and resources, the top two catalysts of war.
I hesitated to use anything even remotely humorous in this thread but this situation creates a tension so brittle it just feels like it's going to snap at times.
The one thing I've gotten out of all this has been the motivation to again try to learn more about this part of the world. What I've found in the past and find more than ever today is that the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so convoluted, so rife with confusion, so double barreled in terms of "bad guys/good guys" going both ways, and so overwhelming in the terrible impact it all has on ordinary people in those lands just trying to get by and have a life. It's a huge messy tangle of trouble. The Middle East in general is one of those places where trouble has brewed more intensely that a lot of other places and right now the Israeli/Palestine region is one gigantic nuclear plant going into meltdown.
It’s not that complicated. Hugh earlier commented something to the effect
”well the UN already ruled Israel is illegally in West Bank, so they need to get out”
there are two key UN resolutions that address specifically UN wanting Israel to leave -
“In November 1988, the PLO finally met U.S. demand that it renounce terrorism and accept U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which called for Arab-Israeli peace and mutual recognition accompanied by Israeli withdrawal from “territories” it had occupied in 1967.”
Then in the 90s, there were TWO treaties the world community oversaw whereby the PLO,PA and Israel agreed to share West Bank, and designated three zones, one for each and one shared, the Israel zones were specific to lands that were historically part of Israel, or key nomadic land near the Jordanian border that is critical to prevent an invasion. The PLO (remember them) was almost immediately replaced after these treaties by Hamas and the deal was disregarded, as were those two key UN resolutions
it should be clear to anyone examining this situation why Israel can not fully leave the West Bank. Before their military took over the land in 1967, Jordan and Egypt invaded Israel multiple times from that land, just as Hamas did the other day from Gaza . Those invasions stopped in 1967, and were replaced with terrorism, aka the targeting of civilians, women and children for death. Israel has since reached peace with those two nations, as well as many other Muslim states. They were about to reach a peace deal with the saudis, which is the reason imo Hamas acted with this bloodshed
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Yes, pretty much sums it up.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
did Russia have a signed peace treaty with Ukraine that Ukraine violated?
if people are not familiar with the history of Israel, history of violated peace treaties, history of Arab aggression, whether it be biblical, historical or the peace deals from the 90s Palestine violated and ignored, perhaps education or research should come before posting inaccurate comments.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
This was israels land thousands of years before Muslim existed, of which there is archeological evidence. Why are Palestinians obsessed with destroying this evidence? Because it hurts the lies they try to sell to the international community
Palestine signed a peace treaty to share this land. If you were Muslim, you have what, 20 or 30 or 50 secular nations from which to live? If you were Israeli, you’d have one, of which Palestine wants to illegally seize a huge portion, which they agreed not to do.
only Palestine insists on getting 100% of what they want, and refused to abide by the treaty or negotiate further as was required by the agreements.
Just give it the fuck back and give them access to the Gaza Strip.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
We can argue this all day long, but it won't change a thing. I believe both sides have some serious issues. I have to leave it at that.
they've been stealing Palestinian land illegally for decades.
I hate all these blanket statements by celebrities/influencers "I stand with Israel". how about "I stand with peace"? no one seems to give a fuck when the IDF is assassinating Palestinians.
again, the bible is not evidence of anything. it's a fairy tale. if Lord of the Rings had been written 2000 years ago we'd all be wearing busts of Frodo Baggins around our necks.
as brian said, there has to be a statute to limitations at some point. I mean, if you need to go back thousands of years to show "the rightful owners" of land, literally no one currently should be living on the land they are on. It's absurd.
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www.headstonesband.com
just give back fucking Indiana to the Indians is the equivalent of your biased comment.
www.headstonesband.com
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Tell me instead about the peace deal Palestine signed to share the land
There are two treaties approved by the UN in the 1990s that you are ignoring. They signed a deal to share the land, and immediately the PLO was replaced by Hamas, a violent, militant terrorist group. Only Hamas wants the deal to be 100% their way. Israel and the PA and the PLO were willing to share and negotiate
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
https://x.com/timjacobwise/status/1711433796011082227?s=46
www.headstonesband.com
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The cool thing about Bono is that he would sing for all the children on both sides.
”well the UN already ruled Israel is illegally in West Bank, so they need to get out”
there are two key UN resolutions that address specifically UN wanting Israel to leave -
“In November 1988, the PLO finally met U.S. demand that it renounce terrorism and accept U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which called for Arab-Israeli peace and mutual recognition accompanied by Israeli withdrawal from “territories” it had occupied in 1967.”
it should be clear to anyone examining this situation why Israel can not fully leave the West Bank. Before their military took over the land in 1967, Jordan and Egypt invaded Israel multiple times from that land, just as Hamas did the other day from Gaza . Those invasions stopped in 1967, and were replaced with terrorism, aka the targeting of civilians, women and children for death. Israel has since reached peace with those two nations, as well as many other Muslim states. They were about to reach a peace deal with the saudis, which is the reason imo Hamas acted with this bloodshed