I’m watching cnn, msnbc, fox, reading news and comments on Reddit, and the only place I am hearing wildly inaccurate comments about this horrific situation, the Pearl Jam politics message board. Go figure.
Hughbaby, I refuse to enter the (single letter) zone... so I'll brush up elsewhere!
Lex, thx for some learning 👉
This topic makes me miss Hedo, but I'm sure she wouldn't miss this human crap! Basically, more killing in God's name with a God that's nowhere to be found conveniently?
You hit the nail on the head, Tish, regarding more killing in the name of God. God and resources, the top two catalysts of war.
I hesitated to use anything even remotely humorous in this thread but this situation creates a tension so brittle it just feels like it's going to snap at times.
The one thing I've gotten out of all this has been the motivation to again try to learn more about this part of the world. What I've found in the past and find more than ever today is that the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so convoluted, so rife with confusion, so double barreled in terms of "bad guys/good guys" going both ways, and so overwhelming in the terrible impact it all has on ordinary people in those lands just trying to get by and have a life. It's a huge messy tangle of trouble. The Middle East in general is one of those places where trouble has brewed more intensely that a lot of other places and right now the Israeli/Palestine region is one gigantic nuclear plant going into meltdown.
It’s not that complicated. Hugh earlier commented something to the effect
”well the UN already ruled Israel is illegally in West Bank, so they need to get out”
there are two key UN resolutions that address specifically UN wanting Israel to leave -
“In November 1988, the PLO finally met U.S. demand that it renounce terrorism and accept U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which called for Arab-Israeli peace and mutual recognition accompanied by Israeli withdrawal from “territories” it had occupied in 1967.”
Then in the 90s, there were TWO treaties the world community oversaw whereby the PLO,PA and Israel agreed to share West Bank, and designated three zones, one for each and one shared, the Israel zones were specific to lands that were historically part of Israel, or key nomadic land near the Jordanian border that is critical to prevent an invasion. The PLO (remember them) was almost immediately replaced after these treaties by Hamas and the deal was disregarded, as were those two key UN resolutions
it should be clear to anyone examining this situation why Israel can not fully leave the West Bank. Before their military took over the land in 1967, Jordan and Egypt invaded Israel multiple times from that land, just as Hamas did the other day from Gaza . Those invasions stopped in 1967, and were replaced with terrorism, aka the targeting of civilians, women and children for death. Israel has since reached peace with those two nations, as well as many other Muslim states. They were about to reach a peace deal with the saudis, which is the reason imo Hamas acted with this bloodshed
You mean the other three? For a total of five? Is five “many” as a whole number or percentage, given your penchant for historical accuracy?
Hughbaby, I refuse to enter the (single letter) zone... so I'll brush up elsewhere!
Lex, thx for some learning 👉
This topic makes me miss Hedo, but I'm sure she wouldn't miss this human crap! Basically, more killing in God's name with a God that's nowhere to be found conveniently?
You hit the nail on the head, Tish, regarding more killing in the name of God. God and resources, the top two catalysts of war.
I hesitated to use anything even remotely humorous in this thread but this situation creates a tension so brittle it just feels like it's going to snap at times.
The one thing I've gotten out of all this has been the motivation to again try to learn more about this part of the world. What I've found in the past and find more than ever today is that the whole Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so convoluted, so rife with confusion, so double barreled in terms of "bad guys/good guys" going both ways, and so overwhelming in the terrible impact it all has on ordinary people in those lands just trying to get by and have a life. It's a huge messy tangle of trouble. The Middle East in general is one of those places where trouble has brewed more intensely that a lot of other places and right now the Israeli/Palestine region is one gigantic nuclear plant going into meltdown.
It’s not that complicated. Hugh earlier commented something to the effect
”well the UN already ruled Israel is illegally in West Bank, so they need to get out”
there are two key UN resolutions that address specifically UN wanting Israel to leave -
“In November 1988, the PLO finally met U.S. demand that it renounce terrorism and accept U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which called for Arab-Israeli peace and mutual recognition accompanied by Israeli withdrawal from “territories” it had occupied in 1967.”
Then in the 90s, there were TWO treaties the world community oversaw whereby the PLO,PA and Israel agreed to share West Bank, and designated three zones, one for each and one shared, the Israel zones were specific to lands that were historically part of Israel, or key nomadic land near the Jordanian border that is critical to prevent an invasion. The PLO (remember them) was almost immediately replaced after these treaties by Hamas and the deal was disregarded, as were those two key UN resolutions
it should be clear to anyone examining this situation why Israel can not fully leave the West Bank. Before their military took over the land in 1967, Jordan and Egypt invaded Israel multiple times from that land, just as Hamas did the other day from Gaza . Those invasions stopped in 1967, and were replaced with terrorism, aka the targeting of civilians, women and children for death. Israel has since reached peace with those two nations, as well as many other Muslim states. They were about to reach a peace deal with the saudis, which is the reason imo Hamas acted with this bloodshed
Well, L, I think it is all that complicated, and as much as I abhor the things the Hamas has done, I also feel the same way about what Israel is doing to innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip.
I can tell you have strong feelings about all this and I respect that. I just think there are more or other layers.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
I’m watching cnn, msnbc, fox, reading news and comments on Reddit, and the only place I am hearing wildly inaccurate comments about this horrific situation, the Pearl Jam politics message board. Go figure.
I'm curious, what comments that have been posted here on AMT do you find to be inaccurate?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
edited October 2023
This might be worth checking out. This link shows that break-down statistics regarding the number of Palestinians (6,407) and Israelis (308) who were killed or injured since 2008 in the occupied Palestinian territory, as compiled but OCHA, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
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Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
This is not the thread to talk about whether the story of Jesus is accurate or not...especially since writings at the time he was supposed to exist do not exist. JFC he walked on water and nobody wrote about it until a few hundred years later?
Walking on water? I am referring within the construct of the discussion to the evidence he was a human that lived in the West Bank. That specific evidence is not archeological, unlike the Israeli evidence.
Lerxst I think the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis is terrorism and has been going on for far too long. I am not surprised that some people are getting fed up enough to mount more successful insurgencies. Is it great that this will lead to more and further bloodshed? No.
As far as comparing this to Natives or saying that all land is occupied, that is hogwash. We know better at this point, arguably we did back then as well. However, just because the US did it in the past doesn't make it right for Israel to do now.
Hey we are gonna force you out of your land, and when you inevitably fight back we are going to take more of your land with our superior fire power in the name of security, and when you fight back again we will call you terrorists etc... What a fucked up carousel.
Israel seized land because of constant invasion from every direction after the Nakba in 1948.
Really 1948? wow. I guess the land was never Israeli before 1948? Or Mick will come in soon and explain what happened four thousand years ago never really happened. Thats three thousand and eight hundred years before the US seized its land. But according to that comment, the US gets a free pass, Australia gets a free pass, Canada gets a free pass , everyone gets a free pass, except Israel. Wonder why. Wonder what makes Israel so different.
We’ve argued this before, except now, Iran has started a war. They are not interested in peace, and if the Dems start talking like this, it probably will get trump elected.
palestine has always been supportive of ethnic cleansing of israelis and never been interested in peace. Today is obviously Iran destroying the Saudi peace talks. Any attempt to deny that is a joke.
Before 1948 the land was Mandatory Palestine and part of the Great Britain's colonial empire. Now I'm unclear where the US and Australia or Canada for that matter get a free pass. I think we can all agree that what was done in the past should not ever be repeated, but we have been and are seeing it repeated in Palestine. Israel telling Palestinians to leave so they won't be targeted by the retaliation well where are they supposed to go?, certainly not to the homes of their ancestors, or even living dependents if they don't want to be slaughtered. People literally had homes and land taken from them for over 50 years and are expected to be docile.
As for your earlier myth about natives deciding to peacefully coexist with European conquerers, I'm pretty sure Custer and thousands of others that fell to native resistance would beg to differ. Or was Native American resistance just terrorism and a wish for ethic cleansing in your mind? Coexisting only happened once military superiority and the white mans boundless cruelty were well established.
How many unarmed Palestinians have been killed trying to return home? But sure it all must be anti-semitism as you are seemingly trying to infer. Anytime something like this happens it is wrong and no one gets a pass. The founding fathers gave themselves a pass, GB gave Australia a pass after starting a penal colony on aboriginal land, but that don't mean shit if the natives never co signed, just a bunch of legalese.
No one gets a pass. America has an original sin and it isn't slavery. If you can go through life and think this is A ok because the world is just one occupied territory, well that's sad for you. Seeing this continually unfold in real time over my whole life as long as it has is sad.
Israel just keeps penning in the Palestinians and striking with a harder and harder fist after nearly decimating an entire culture.
Wrong is wrong. But please tell me how America and Australia and Canada get a pass and why it's ok to just continue this type of shit in Israel or anywhere else for that matter because previous generations of wealthy white men got away with it.
I'm glad I don't view history through a one way street.
No culture has been decimated or cleaned more than that of the people of Israel. It’s the height of absurdity to suggest otherwise. Had hitter won, these people would have been wiped from the planet. And hitler followed thousands of years or Israelis being forcibly displaced from this very land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity. That’s one page of many. The links above are like starting a thousand chapter book on chapter 950.
WWII was the last straw of this four thousand year old story, that’s why the UN put together its Partition Plan, which was met immediately with violence from the Arab nations. No bargaining table no negotiations. That’s how the Arabs have handled this complex process since their “beginning” which is really chapter 950. The Arabs start wars, and don’t like how they end.
Look at what happened in WWII and how the arab states responded to these people cleansed by hitler. That violence is their legacy. They stand for hatred and violence, decade after decade, right from the ashes of Hitlers war.
Regarding Canada, we had a recent topic here, the phrase is literally First Nations, plural , and that doesn’t apply to the Canadian immigrants from Europe. There were other peoples living there who were violently displaced. Australia also has issues with its indigenous populations.
Israel occupies key strategic lands in the West Bank because these lands were used to attack Israeli civilians , including women and children, and were seized when Israel was attacked in the 1967 war. The US, Canada, Australia and many other countries get to keep land won after conflict to try to secure peace , yet Israel does not?
Israel occupies other lands in the West Bank that was theirs thousands of years ago. It’s Sunday, you are free to go to church now in multiple religions and read about this in the Bible.
Israel has a list of peace deals with Arab nations. Todays war is about Iran not liking the Saudi talks and destroying the peace process. Go ahead and support Iran.
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Second bolded. Why didn't the UN give Germany to the Israelis, It seems to me like it would have been much less destabilizing.
I understand that Palestine was Israels a thousand years ago, but when the partition happened it was a majority Palestinian state and villages and mosques were decimated to repurpose the land for the Israelis. Also Palestinians had been living there for a thousand years as well. It's not like this was some peaceful thing where the UN came in and said here are the new borders and managed everyones previous property rights etc. It was a disaster that has continued to present day.
I also understand that there I likely Iranian intervention behind the scenes here, but if I was Palestinian I would be looking anywhere I could for help if it meant finally not living in an open air prison.
All in it is a crap situation for all involved. It isn't realistic to expect the Palestinians to not try to take back their family homes and lands, and it isn't realistic to expect Israelis to just wait for the next rocket to drop. It's a complex situation and I don't think either side is in the right.
A lot of your comment here is fair, but there are two huge facts missing.
1. Israel has a proven track record, decades long, of negotiating peace deals with Arab states, including the recent attempt with the Saudis, which is what gave Iran desperation to act now.
2. The people of Palestine never displayed an interest in negotiating peace, as they never even recognized Israel’s right to exist.
as a footnote, had Israelis never been forcefully removed from this land, they would have surely outnumbered Palestinians there in 1948.
Can you give me a timeline of when Israelis were forcibly removed?I'm ignorant of that. I understand there was still a large israeli presence (44%) before the partitioning which is a rather sizable minority. Wondering what conditions were like for them pre 1948?
From the link in my comment above, “ In 722 BCE, around ten years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.”
much of the history of Israel and the West Bank is in the Old Testament.
The reality is both cultures have claims to this land (one far longer than the other) yet only one refuses to recognize the other, refuses to negotiate peace, insists on the full deportation of the other, believes the other should be removed from the earth, and has a long history of targeting civilians for murder, after their numerous military invasions pre 1974 yielded no results.
Honestly, I’ve seen this fairly same argument on the other side.
I don’t think citing the bible as accurate historical record really helps any argument.
How about archeological evidence the kingdom of Israel existed on this land thousands of years ago? Is that accurate enough for you?
Do you believe in the story of Jesus? Is that accurate enough for you?
This is not the thread to talk about whether the story of Jesus is accurate or not...especially since writings at the time he was supposed to exist do not exist. JFC he walked on water and nobody wrote about it until a few hundred years later?
Walking on water? I am referring within the construct of the discussion to the evidence he was a human that lived in the West Bank. That specific evidence is not archeological, unlike the Israeli evidence.
gotcha...I'm with you there.
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I’m watching cnn, msnbc, fox, reading news and comments on Reddit, and the only place I am hearing wildly inaccurate comments about this horrific situation, the Pearl Jam politics message board. Go figure.
strange how the MSM is now a hub of accuracy and no disinformation when it suits your needs.
I've seen plenty of criticisms of MSM regarding this, and examples as to why. one of the issues is that people are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. That's like saying all the US are MAGA. This is going to lead to the ability of Israel to be excused for the atrocities it will likely inflict on all Palestinians in the near future, like no one cared about the US wiping out hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the name of "liberation".
please explain what you mean by your "go figure" comment.
I would also agree if it said, "It is absolutely and logical to be opposed and deeply troubled by the attacks of the Hamas while simultaneously calling for the protection of innocent Palestinian civilians living in occupied territories as well as Muslims around the world. We can and must always use our voices to denounce terrorism and senseless murder of civilians."
Of course, if there were not religious fanatics and powerful forces all around creating these hostilities, not of this would happen on either side.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I would also agree if it said, "It is absolutely and logical to be opposed and deeply troubled by the attacks of the Hamas while simultaneously calling for the protection of innocent Palestinian civilians living in occupied territories as well as Muslims around the world. We can and must always use our voices to denounce terrorism and senseless murder of civilians."
Of course, if there were not religious fanatics and powerful forces all around creating these hostilities, not of this would happen on either side.
That is a statement I can support as well. When I say “go figure” in response earlier , the majority of the US and EU not only view words as “occupation” and “expulsion” as extremist language used by leftists who do not understand why strict security measures are needed. I had hoped that would be obvious Saturday, but I was incorrect.
Bri, it’s not fanaticism, fwiw I am not that religious. My heart goes out to the civilians wanting to live peacefully on both sides. But I have been very familiar with the lies and propaganda emerging from Palestine and amnesty intl in recent years
Until Palestinian leaders recognize Israel’s right to exist in peace as neighbors , peace seems impossible, as does relinquishing lands in West Bank unfortunately. I hope those that comment here who use extreme wording like “occupation” fully understand that the refusal to acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist” has an unavoidable impact on any solutions that may seem simple to them, but are offensive to many Israeli supporters. I say that always hoping Netanyahu loses and a more peaceful ( left leaning ) solution based leader can defeat him. I hope that is still an option after recent events
the solution will either be peace thru terror, or peace thru negotiation. There are no other realistic alternatives.
I would also agree if it said, "It is absolutely and logical to be opposed and deeply troubled by the attacks of the Hamas while simultaneously calling for the protection of innocent Palestinian civilians living in occupied territories as well as Muslims around the world. We can and must always use our voices to denounce terrorism and senseless murder of civilians."
Of course, if there were not religious fanatics and powerful forces all around creating these hostilities, not of this would happen on either side.
That is a statement I can support as well. When I say “go figure” in response earlier , the majority of the US and EU not only view words as “occupation” and “expulsion” as extremist language used by leftists who do not understand why strict security measures are needed. I had hoped that would be obvious Saturday, but I was incorrect.
Bri, it’s not fanaticism, fwiw I am not that religious. My heart goes out to the civilians wanting to live peacefully on both sides. But I have been very familiar with the lies and propaganda emerging from Palestine and amnesty intl in recent years
Until Palestinian leaders recognize Israel’s right to exist in peace as neighbors , peace seems impossible, as does relinquishing lands in West Bank unfortunately. I hope those that comment here who use extreme wording like “occupation” fully understand that the refusal to acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist” has an unavoidable impact on any solutions that may seem simple to them, but are offensive to many Israeli supporters. I say that always hoping Netanyahu loses and a more peaceful ( left leaning ) solution based leader can defeat him. I hope that is still an option after recent events
the solution will either be peace thru terror, or peace thru negotiation. There are no other realistic alternatives.
from what I've read, it's an "open air prison". it's not "strict security measures".
Palestinian leaders DID recognize Israel's right to exist, and then Israel kept up the occupation, stealing more territory and terrorizing the Palestinians. I haven't once seen you admit that Israel has gone against international laws several times. You don't think this has something to do with the uprising and gaining support of these terrorists?
I would also agree if it said, "It is absolutely and logical to be opposed and deeply troubled by the attacks of the Hamas while simultaneously calling for the protection of innocent Palestinian civilians living in occupied territories as well as Muslims around the world. We can and must always use our voices to denounce terrorism and senseless murder of civilians."
Of course, if there were not religious fanatics and powerful forces all around creating these hostilities, not of this would happen on either side.
That is a statement I can support as well. When I say “go figure” in response earlier , the majority of the US and EU not only view words as “occupation” and “expulsion” as extremist language used by leftists who do not understand why strict security measures are needed. I had hoped that would be obvious Saturday, but I was incorrect.
Bri, it’s not fanaticism, fwiw I am not that religious. My heart goes out to the civilians wanting to live peacefully on both sides. But I have been very familiar with the lies and propaganda emerging from Palestine and amnesty intl in recent years
Until Palestinian leaders recognize Israel’s right to exist in peace as neighbors , peace seems impossible, as does relinquishing lands in West Bank unfortunately. I hope those that comment here who use extreme wording like “occupation” fully understand that the refusal to acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist” has an unavoidable impact on any solutions that may seem simple to them, but are offensive to many Israeli supporters. I say that always hoping Netanyahu loses and a more peaceful ( left leaning ) solution based leader can defeat him. I hope that is still an option after recent events
the solution will either be peace thru terror, or peace thru negotiation. There are no other realistic alternatives.
L, I certainly did not mean to imply you are a fanatic. I was referring to the general concept that religious fanaticism is often used by people in a position to do so to start wars. Even more often, they are started by greed or fighting over resources. I'm guessing the latter will become the greatest cause for war in a world of ever depleting resources.
I agree with both the idea of Palestinian leaders recognizing Israels right to exist as well as Israel allowing Palestinians the right to exist without what many see as imprisonment. I'm not so sure either will ever happen, but until such time, blood will continue to spill in the Middle East. It's too bad there isn't some way to establish agree upon boundaries and then have both sides just leave each other the hell alone. Wishful thinking.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
again, don't conflate hamas with the average Palestinian.
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
again, don't conflate hamas with the average Palestinian.
I agree but are all those Palestinians that are marching all over the globe aware of this? And how come most of them , including some members of congress refuse to denounce Hamas? Unless I’m missing something. Which could be the case.
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
again, don't conflate hamas with the average Palestinian.
I agree but are all those Palestinians that are marching all over the globe aware of this? And how come most of them , including some members of congress refuse to denounce Hamas? Unless I’m missing something. Which could be the case.
I have been quite surprised how many people in the US and in Canada and elsewhere have been cheering this shit on. No matter your cause, cheering the murder of innocents is never ok. I'm still assuming this is a very small minority in the grand scheme.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,932
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,932
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
I haven't seen this verified by any legit news source. Not saying it didn't happen, but I would hold off declaring it to be so until certain.
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
again, don't conflate hamas with the average Palestinian.
...this.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,769
40 babies and possibly more murdered by hamas. Some of those 40 babies who were murdered were also beheaded. Tell me again how these people want peace and to be “free”.
again, don't conflate hamas with the average Palestinian.
I agree but are all those Palestinians that are marching all over the globe aware of this? And how come most of them , including some members of congress refuse to denounce Hamas? Unless I’m missing something. Which could be the case.
I have been quite surprised how many people in the US and in Canada and elsewhere have been cheering this shit on. No matter your cause, cheering the murder of innocents is never ok. I'm still assuming this is a very small minority in the grand scheme.
The loudmouths get the most attention. I think the vast majority of people abhor what the Hamas did (again, of course, knowing not all Palestinians are Hamas- I know you know this, but some people don't seem to).
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
also el kabong, abookamongstthemany, yosi, rafie, and all the others that posted here years ago. all much more experts on the conflict than any of us that are still here.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
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Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
I'm curious, what comments that have been posted here on AMT do you find to be inaccurate?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.
I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
tRump moving the embassy to Jerusalem probably didn't help either. Just furthering the religious war.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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I've seen plenty of criticisms of MSM regarding this, and examples as to why. one of the issues is that people are conflating Palestinians and Hamas. That's like saying all the US are MAGA. This is going to lead to the ability of Israel to be excused for the atrocities it will likely inflict on all Palestinians in the near future, like no one cared about the US wiping out hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the name of "liberation".
please explain what you mean by your "go figure" comment.
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I agree with that statement.
Bri, it’s not fanaticism, fwiw I am not that religious. My heart goes out to the civilians wanting to live peacefully on both sides. But I have been very familiar with the lies and propaganda emerging from Palestine and amnesty intl in recent years
Until Palestinian leaders recognize Israel’s right to exist in peace as neighbors , peace seems impossible, as does relinquishing lands in West Bank unfortunately. I hope those that comment here who use extreme wording like “occupation” fully understand that the refusal to acknowledge Israel’s “right to exist” has an unavoidable impact on any solutions that may seem simple to them, but are offensive to many Israeli supporters. I say that always hoping Netanyahu loses and a more peaceful ( left leaning ) solution based leader can defeat him. I hope that is still an option after recent events
the solution will either be peace thru terror, or peace thru negotiation. There are no other realistic alternatives.
Palestinian leaders DID recognize Israel's right to exist, and then Israel kept up the occupation, stealing more territory and terrorizing the Palestinians. I haven't once seen you admit that Israel has gone against international laws several times. You don't think this has something to do with the uprising and gaining support of these terrorists?
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the majority of the US and EU not only view words as “occupation” and “expulsion” as extremist language used by leftists
the majority of the UN, agree that it's an occupation.
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https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
...this.
The loudmouths get the most attention. I think the vast majority of people abhor what the Hamas did (again, of course, knowing not all Palestinians are Hamas- I know you know this, but some people don't seem to).
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."