Meanwhile back in Israel

benjs

HughFreakingDillon said:

of course: it's everyone else's fault, and no one gets it but me. 

That's not quite what I took out of Lerxt's post. He did acknowledge Egypt as "as culpable or more" as Israel is - that suggests Israel takes at least partial responsibility which I think is fair. There's plenty of blame to go around, and there's plenty of leaders deserving of it.

Lerxst1992

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow? 

They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.

BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct

Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.

Lerxst1992

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

The problem here, L, is that your arguments are one sided.  You seem to refuse to acknowledge little if any wrong doing on the part of Israel.  So basically, what you are doing is using this thread to vent, not to instruct.  As long as you project the viewpoint that Israel has and can do no wrong, none of this is going to change anyone's perspective. 

"Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community"

A real peace treaty says more than "Do it our way or no deal."

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

The problem here, L, is that your arguments are one sided.  You seem to refuse to acknowledge little if any wrong doing on the part of Israel.  So basically, what you are doing is using this thread to vent, not to instruct.  As long as you project the viewpoint that Israel has and can do no wrong, none of this is going to change anyone's perspective. 

"Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community"

A real peace treaty says more than "Do it our way or no deal."

Isreal has 2 signed deals regarding west bank, ill check if the language there matches that quote

What I can say is not one commenter responded to multiple "river to the sea" comments by me. That seems equivalent to your "Do it our way or no deal."

As far as venting, a horrible attack on Saturday and I can't find one sympathetic comment, only blaming "Israelis terrorists" and occupation on that day. That sounds extremist. You heard about the Harvard law students getting into trouble blaming the attack on Israel? Good for them
...

I'll just put this here,  these are the people seemingly trusted on this forum

Netanyahu's office releases photos of "babies murdered and burned" by Hamas 

From CNN’s Richard Allen Greene in Jerusalem 

F Me In The Brain

The Harvard students should get into trouble for sharing their opinions?

I don't think that sounds good.

Students should be able to share their opinions.  They are at the time and age when questioning things is the standard expectation. 

I'm very sorry for all of the damage this past week but don't think we should be under gag order.



***Edit - went and looked and I see nowhere that the Harvard students got in trouble.  All I saw were some people calling for them go be outed, most of whom seem to have come to their good senses and tried to calm things down.  
Some assholes thought it would be a good idea to out their names online and also on a billboard truck driving around campus.  I guess they wish they lived in the Red Scare times and everyone would be cool with these tactics.  
They can all go and fuck off.  They could get these kids killed.  

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

The problem here, L, is that your arguments are one sided.  You seem to refuse to acknowledge little if any wrong doing on the part of Israel.  So basically, what you are doing is using this thread to vent, not to instruct.  As long as you project the viewpoint that Israel has and can do no wrong, none of this is going to change anyone's perspective. 

"Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community"

A real peace treaty says more than "Do it our way or no deal."

Isreal has 2 signed deals regarding west bank, ill check if the language there matches that quote

What I can say is not one commenter responded to multiple "river to the sea" comments by me. That seems equivalent to your "Do it our way or no deal."

As far as venting, a horrible attack on Saturday and I can't find one sympathetic comment, only blaming "Israelis terrorists" and occupation on that day. That sounds extremist. You heard about the Harvard law students getting into trouble blaming the attack on Israel? Good for them
...

I'll just put this here,  these are the people seemingly trusted on this forum

Netanyahu's office releases photos of "babies murdered and burned" by Hamas 

From CNN’s Richard Allen Greene in Jerusalem 

I can't find one sympathetic comment, only blaming "Israelis terrorists" and occupation on that day.

Sorry, but that's simply not true.  I'm not going to read through this whole thread to quote them, but there have been a number of comments acknowledging sympathy for the Israeli casualties inflicted by the Hamas. 

Look, I appreciate your empathy for the Israelis who have been unjustly killed by the Hamas and I don't think anyone here is remotely glad innocent people have been killed (on either side), but statements like that are not going to help your credibility here. 

I'd like to see more balanced comments like this one from benjs:

"There's plenty of blame to go around, and there's plenty of leaders deserving of it."

There is wrong doing on both sides.  I don't understand how that cannot be evident.

benjs

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow? 

They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.

BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct

Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.

1. My statement equated to "Egypt has precedence to believe Israel would seize land if vacated of Palestinians" - I even referenced historical events. Yes, Israel has given land back in their past too, but I was (pretty obviously) expressing why Egypt has grounds to say what they did. Am I wrong? 

2. I didn't say Palestine was a sovereign nation (nor do I think I even implied it). I'm not sure what point you're trying to make/argue in this statement.

3. "Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims." 

As a Jew in a Jewish community, I'm all too familiar with the "I know more than you, you've been fed lies and believed them, so why don't you just shut it, simpleton" that comes out as a unified voice from the community whenever a criticism of Israeli behaviours is lobbed.

My conclusion has been pretty simple - if someone wants to debate with you, but wants you to know first and foremost how much superior they and their opinions are - they want you to accept their opinions carte blanche, and they are disinterested in a genuine debate. And if they're disinterested in a genuine debate, I'm not interested at all. So I'm out. Y'all have fun - none of this matters and none of this changes anyways.

HughFreakingDillon

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/opinions/gaza-palestinian-israel-hamas-seige-ghraieb/index.html

western media does not equal reality: opinion from someone who lives in Gaza

HughFreakingDillon

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

because your arguments are so obviously biased, it's laughable. the facts and history you've attempted to provide are basically pro-Israel talking points. 

mickeyrat

ohh this gesture....

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-warns-iran-over-gaza-israel-forms-emergency-war-cabinet-2023-10-11/

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/Cooperstreaming/status/1712245994606444847?t=wWeJY8J52EP_bOC35W_X5w&s=19

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1712592528149512203?t=_HfdOb9gxrhXA9JzomqVhQ&s=19

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/Cooperstreaming/status/1712245994606444847?t=wWeJY8J52EP_bOC35W_X5w&s=19

Jon Steward!  Nailed it.

  

Well here's my 12 cents and then I'm going to try to ignore this train wrecked thread:

-I believe it is not only OK to question everything and everyone, I think it's a smart idea.

-I don't believe nationalism is in anyone's best interest.  It sets everyone up for conflict.

-I don't like the idea of political boundaries.  That is all fake bullshit.  I believe in bio-regions.

-I don't believe in religion.  Being a spiritual person and a critically thinking person are infinitely superior traits.

-People with too much power fuck things up and that definitely applies to the subject at hand.

-Power corrupts.  Both sides of this issue are being led by corrupt people.

-A vast majority of wars are unnecessary. War is not the best way to solve things. 

-War crimes are evil.  Both sides of this conflict have carried out evil.

-"Love and only love will break it down."

mickeyrat

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-cabinet-beb1fa2b9e4ede6cf4568dd6c86ff11a   As desperation in Gaza grows, Israel pledges to block vital aid until Hamas releases hostages

As desperation in Gaza grows, Israel pledges to block vital aid until Hamas releases hostages
By JOSEPH KRAUSS and WAFAA SHURAFA
1 hour ago
JERUSALEM (AP) — The Israeli military pulverized the Gaza Strip with airstrikes, prepared for a possible ground invasion and said Thursday its complete siege of the territory — which has left Palestinians desperate for food, fuel and medicine — would remain in place until Hamas militants free some 150 hostages taken during a grisly weekend incursion.

A visit by Secretary of State Antony Blinken, along with shipments of U.S. weapons, offered a powerful green light to Israel to drive ahead with its retaliation in Gaza after Hamas’ deadly attack on civilians and soldiers, even as international aid groups warned of a worsening humanitarian crisis. Israel has halted deliveries of basic necessities and electricity to Gaza’s 2.3 million people and prevented entry of supplies from Egypt.

“Not a single electricity switch will be flipped on, not a single faucet will be turned on and not a single fuel truck will enter until the Israeli hostages are returned home,” Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz said on social media.

Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, an Israeli military spokesman, told reporters Thursday that forces “are preparing for a ground maneuver” should political leaders order one.

A ground offensive in Gaza, which is ruled by Hamas and where the population is densely packed into a sliver of land only 40 kilometers (25 miles) long, would likely bring even higher casualties on both sides in brutal house-to-house fighting.

Hamas’ assault Saturday and smaller attacks since have killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades — and the ensuing Israeli bombardment has killed more than 1,530 people in Gaza, according to authorities on both sides. Israel says roughly 1,500 Hamas militants were killed inside Israel, and that hundreds of the dead in Gaza are Hamas members. Thousands have been wounded on both sides.

As Israel pounds Gaza from the air, Hamas militants have fired thousands of rockets into Israel. Amid concerns that the fighting could spread in the region, Syrian state media reported that Israeli airstrikes on Thursday put two Syrian international airports out of service.

The relentless barrage on Gaza — which the military said has so far involved 6,000 munitions — left Palestinians running through streets, carrying their belongings and looking for safety

A strike Thursday afternoon in the Jabaliya refugee camp took down a residential building on families sheltering inside, killing at least 45 people, Gaza's Interior Ministry said. At least 23 of the dead were under the age of 18, including a month-old child, according to a list of the casualties.

The home belonging to the al-Shihab family was packed with relatives who had fled bombing in other areas. Neighbors said a second house was hit at the same time, but the toll was not immediately known. The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

“We can’t flee because anywhere you go, you are bombed," one neighbor, Khalil Abu Yahia, said. "You need a miracle to survive here.”

The number of people forced from their homes by the airstrikes soared 25% in a day, reaching 423,000 out of a population of 2.3 million, the U.N. said Thursday. Most crowded into U.N.-run schools.

Families were cutting down to one meal a day, said Rami Swailem, a 34-year-old lecturer at al-Azhar University, who had 32 relatives sheltering in his home. Water stopped coming to the building two days ago, and they have rationed what’s left in a tank on the roof.

Alaa Younis Abuel-Omrain has been staying in a U.N. school after a strike on her home killed eight members of her family — her mother, aunt, a sister, a brother and his wife and their three children. Most bakeries stopped producing bread for lack of electricity.

“Even if there is food in some areas, we can’t get to it because of strikes,” she said.

On Wednesday, Gaza’s only power station ran out of fuel and shut down, leaving only lights powered by scattered private generators.

Hospitals, overwhelmed by a constant stream of wounded and running out of supplies, have only a few days worth of fuel before their power cuts off, aid officials say.

“Without electricity, hospitals risk turning into morgues,” said Fabrizio Carboni, regional director of the International Committee of the Red Cross. Newborn incubators, kidney dialysis machines, X-ray equipment and more, are all dependent on power, he said.

Ambulance crews carrying bodies to the morgue at Gaza’s biggest hospital, Shifa, found no space left. Dozens of full body bags were lined up in the hospital parking lot. Fourteen health facilities have been damaged in strikes, health officials said Thursday.

With Israel sealing off the territory, the only way in or out is through the crossing with Egypt at Rafah, but Egypt's Foreign Ministry said Thursday that airstrikes on Rafah have prevented it from operating. Egypt has been trying to convince Israel and the United States to allow aid and fuel through the crossing.

Israel is employing a new tactic of leveling whole neighborhoods, rather than just individual buildings. Hecht, the military spokesman, said targeting decisions were based on intelligence on locations being used by Hamas and that civilians were warned.

“Right now, we are focused on taking out their senior leadership,” Hecht said. The military said strikes have hit Hamas’ elite Nukhba forces, including command centers used by the fighters in Saturday’s attack, and the home of a senior Hamas naval operative used to store weapons.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to “crush” Hamas after the militants stormed into the country’s south on Saturday and massacred hundreds of people, including killings of children in their homes and young people at a music festival. Netanyahu said Hamas' atrocities included beheading soldiers and raping women, descriptions that could not immediately be independently confirmed.

Amid grief and demands for vengeance among the Israeli public, the government is under intense pressure to topple Hamas rather than continuing to try to bottle it up in Gaza.

In a video released Thursday, civilian Hamas figures defended the group’s rampage and decried the civilian deaths in Gaza from six days of Israeli airstrikes. The solemn video lacked the bravado of a recording aired Saturday by Hamas’s military wing that hailed “the greatest battle” as the massacres were still taking place.

Basem Naim, a former Hamas government minister, said that in the “swift collapse” of the Israeli military on Saturday, “chaos prevailed and civilians found themselves in the middle of the confrontation." The claim is contradicted by countless videos and survivor accounts of Hamas militants deliberately targeting and killing civilians in Israel.

Naim added that there would be no action to free the 150 captives taken back into Gaza while Israel's operation continued.

Israel was a nation in mourning. At a funeral for a 25-year-old woman killed with at least 260 other people at a desert rave, and at another service for a slain Israeli soldier, mourners sat cross-legged on the ground next to caskets, wailing or quietly weeping.

In Gaza, too, mourners buried families together in shrouds. At one funeral, they placed the battered body of a little girl in the arms of her slain father.

Brewing anger over Israeli military and intelligence failures in the surprise attack is being directed at Netanyahu’s far-right government, which for months advanced a contentious legal overhaul that divided the country and affected the military.

In what appeared to be a first admission of fault from a government member, Israeli Education Minister Yoav Kisch told Israeli news outlet Ynet: “We are responsible. I, as a member of the government, am responsible. We were dealing with nonsense.”

Israel’s public diplomacy minister quit, the first fissure in Netanyahu’s government since the onslaught.

Four previous conflicts ended with Hamas still firmly in control of the territory it has ruled since 2007. Israel has mobilized 360,000 reservists, massed forces near Gaza and evacuated tens of thousands of residents from nearby communities. A new war Cabinet, which includes a longtime opposition politician, was sworn in Thursday to direct the fight.

A high-ranking Hamas official, Saleh Al-Arouri, warned Thursday that any Israeli invasion of Gaza “will turn into a disaster for its army,” saying the group was prepared to respond.

Blinken’s visit underscored American backing for Israel’s retaliation.

“You may be strong enough on your own to defend yourselves, but as long as America exists, you will never have to,” Blinken said after meeting with Netanyahu in Tel Aviv.

Blinken said he told Netanyahu that it was “so important to take every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians.”

Blinken will also meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, whose authority is confined to parts of the occupied West Bank, and Jordan’s King Abdullah II. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin planned to visit Israel on Friday.

___

Shurafa reported from Gaza City, Gaza Strip. Associated Press writers Amy Teibel and Isabel DeBre in Jerusalem; Sam McNeil in Be’eri, Israel; Jack Jeffrey and Samy Magdy in Cairo; Samya Kullab in Baghdad and Kareem Chehayeb in Beirut contributed to this report.

Halifax2TheMax

Where and when does this end? Lerxst, you backing this? Justified, I suppose?

1.1M in northern Gaza should evacuate within 24 hours, Israel tells U.N.

brianlux

Halifax2TheMax said:

Where and when does this end? Lerxst, you backing this? Justified, I suppose?

1.1M in northern Gaza should evacuate within 24 hours, Israel tells U.N.

Confirmed:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-news-gaza-palestine-evacuations-military

UN spokesperson says evacuation order affects 1.1 million people and will spark ‘devastating humanitarian consequences’, amid expectations of Israeli ground assault

"The U.N. said that moving the approximately 1.1 million people affected within the 24-hour deadline given by Israel would have dire consequences."

-NY Times

A.P. News :

"JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s military directed the evacuation on Friday of all of the hundreds of thousands of civilians living in Gaza City ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. The order comes after Hamas militants, and the United Nations said Israel has warned it wants the evacuation of all 1.1 million people from the northern part of the Gaza Strip.

The directive, which comes on the seventh day of the war after a deadly Hamas assault on Israel, directs residents of Gaza City to flee deeper south into the Gaza Strip, a narrow coastal territory. Israel’s directive charged that Hamas militants were hiding in tunnels under the city.

“This evacuation is for your own safety,” the Israeli military said, in a warning it said was sent to Gaza City civilians."

Is Israel trying to dissuade support from the rest of the world? When they have the support of so many people and several major countries, why do this? 

(Yeah, I know, so much for ignoring this thread.)

mickeyrat

TO WHERE!?!?!

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

TO WHERE!?!?!

No kidding!
Swim? 

mickeyrat

what comes to mind is to force egypt to open up. force the whole population there, then slam the door shut behind them.  completely decimate gaza , then clean it up and make new settlements...