Meanwhile back in Israel

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

Lerxst1992

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Somehow Linda knew this place was Hamas central, she is smarter than me. Of course the story with 40 babies was a lie because according to AMT, it’s from a shady news source. Well the cnn story below is horrific enough. Yea, AMT. that’s  comparable to checkpoints, limiting social interaction to incur violence, and monitoring borders to identify weapons smuggling.



You cannot say “ignore the fact Palestine refuses Israel’s right to exist “ and its land is occupied. The security measures exist for that fact alone. It goes no further than that despite whatever extremist liberal organizations want you to believe. Any North American would expect those security measures if Hamas and Hezbollah lived next door


It’s unreal the bias here is on a level with maga. The liberal news channels are nothing like this forum, it is stunning. Id be embarrassed frankly if I owned this forum. Every pro israeli point shot down with almost complete ignorance of facts and history. Both sides need to honestly negotiate here, and that comment got attacked repeatedly this week by the pro Hamas contingent.

Blame Israel for Arab extremism and Palestinian violations of signed treaties, yet Israel should exit West Bank, a land they somehow lived peacefully in before the Roman ethnic cleansing and forced relocation for thousands of years , which seems acceptable to this place. Israel having zero rights to their historical land has another name, Arab extremism.

 Israel needs a partner to negotiate peace in good faith. Peace needs give and take. Plenty israeli supporters dislike Netanyahu , but with Hamas at its borders it seems easy to visualize why they went so extreme to the right. Any North American would expect those security measure if Hamas and Hezbollah lived next door, worth repeating every word.

Only one commenter on this forum has been discussing peace treaties and the importance of negotiation.


this conflict remains simple. Peace thru negotiations or peace thru terrorism. It is palestines responsibility to be represented by honest leadership willing to work towards peace. Hopefully Egypt and Jordan can assist with that.


From cnn

‘Murdered in cold blood’: stories emerge of Israelis killed at Gaza border

Friends and relatives say Hamas killed a grandmother, parents protecting their children, and an entire  family during raids

As the hours passed, another horrific account emerged from the same kibbutz. Relatives of an as-yet-unnamed woman said their grandmother had been murdered by the militants, who then filmed her dying moments and posted them on her Facebook page.

I really don't get where your outrage is coming from. No one on here is supporting what Hamas did/is doing.

Below is a factually incorrect comment of yours. Free Palestine is a cry of their people, from the river to the sea. That is what created this mess. that is an irrefutable fact.

…

I can't say I'm 100% up on the history of the conflict but I know that Israel basically took a bunch of land from Palestine upon the failure of the attack in 1948. Repelling the attack was absolutely justified but taking the land that they had has created this mess. Just give it the fuck back and give them access to the…

That isn't a statement that supports Hamas.

It's also not factually incorrect.

https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=One of the two envisaged,population fled or were expelled.

I am not sure you are addressing the river to the sea comment. That is the simplest problem both sides face.

we can go back and forth, both sides are right and wrong in cases of war. But peace cannot happen until both sides start off by recognizing the other,  and land cannot be peacefully shared until both sides want peace thru negotiation. To ignore one sides historical claims here, which was fully supported by the 1917 land owners, is just a horrific extreme position, which is spouted endlessly on this forum.

So I’ll play along, now go back to 1917 and tell me the then land owners position was of this territory. And let’s forgive their 30 year delay with two world wars they had to fight off in their homeland and hitlers bombshell.

we agree that this shouldn't be happening right now...that's what is important

And it's getting much worse now that the northern border is splitting Israel's defense

My guess is that some US airstrikes are imminent

Let’s hope not, that would be scary. We need leaders in Palestine willing to negotiate and share. Both peoples have ancient claims to the West Bank. Anyone posting here that Israel can not have access to certain historical areas of West Bank is misguided, despite the USA not vetoing certain UN Resolutions that were a hope for peace, for which the Palestinians never held up their side

I hope those who like to yell out the O word realize there is a lot of sketchiness to the application of the Geneva conventions in those UN actions, and plenty of resolutions were outright vetoed by the USA. Both sides need to recognize the other has valid claims to West Bank, sit down and sign another treaty but this time follow it.

as far as Gaza goes, Israel has been begging Egypt to take it over for the better part of 15 years. Not even they want to deal with Gaza. For anyone yelling the O word, take a long look at what happened Saturday. That’s what happens when Israel withdraws. They were invaded many times from the West Bank up to 1967, none since they implemented security measures.

So stop claiming Israel’s hands are clean in this dispute. They’ve committed their fair share of atrocities over the past 65 years.

Are you putting words in my mouth oh wise one? Did you think saturdays terrorist attack was funny, because your first comment was a joke about the attack on Saturday.

go take a look at this topic on Saturday, almost zero sympathy for the victims, and phrases like “”Israeli terrorists” were rampant here on Saturday and griping about the O word. This forum should be embarrassed for citing the complexities of the West Bank settlements at a time like this, especially on Saturday. Behavior similar to what trump did on 9/11, making jokes in the face of terrorism.

on Monday I said peace thru negotiations or peace thru terror. That was met with attacks here.

Your posts right out of the gate were ones of black/white and blanket statements that are far from the truth, full of conflating the issues with descriptors such as “monitoring” and a lack of acknowledgement of Israel’s own abhorrent behaviour. My first post was “wash, rinse, repeat” because the cycle of violence between the two sides continues. Nothing more, nothing less. Your posts immediately shot down any suggestion of support for the Palestinians and their rights. You mentioned how we’d all behave differently if we had Hamas as neighbours. Do you think any of us would treat our neighbours as Israel treats Palestinians, regardless of where they reside, West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, or Israel proper? Think about it.

Do I find Hamas’ actions abhorrent? Absolutely. Do i blame both sides’ governments? Absolutely. Do i pretend one side is better than the other because their method of killing in the name of their cause is, oh I don’t know, “modern” versus “barbaric?” No, I do not. Let me guess? In your eyes only one side uses “terror” as a means to an end?

”An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.” I’ll let you figure out who said it.

I’ll try to walk to the middle a bit  by saying if this  tragedy means the end of Netanyahu, great. A leftist willing to negotiate on settlements would have been good, but Hamas was never interested in negotiation. But it was an unreal experience turning the tube on Saturday and reading the endless comments here about Israeli terrorists and occupation.

commenters here seem to think Palestine was some sort of established nation, when in fact it was a creation by the Saudis in the 1800s, meaning it was nearly empty. It is estimated  750,000 Israelis were murdered by the Roman’s in the West Bank , while much later in the 1800s, there were about a third of that amount of Arabs living in the West Bank. A tiny population, created by Saudi migration 

let’s take a population of 750,000 say a thousand years later and extrapolate that population to the 1800s. We are talking about a massive Israeli population in the West Bank, what should have been tens of millions. Let’s talk about ethnic cleansing, a thousand years before hitler.

what many don’t know is the Israelis never left. They tried to stay throughout history on their land. And the blood of their dead are on that West Bank  soil. The history of their religion is on that land, as is the Muslims, so compromise is needed, not the abhorrent GTFO that was endlessly paraded here. When the Saudis got wind the Ottoman Empire was winding down, they sent migrants to the West Bank to try to keep that land for themselves. Palestine was hardly a nation within that empire 
 

saying all that, the Saudis, eh, Palestinians, should also have a claim to the West Bank, that’s the only way to reach peace. But the leftists here will have none of that. I tried to meet this extremist forum in the middle, and that was shot down. To rebut your earlier point, I have been alone AFAIK on this forum calling for negotiation for three days, which is an admission that both sides need to give to solve this problem. Telling Israel to GTFO out of a huge portion of their ancestral land, and land needed for self protection, is highly offensive. As saturdays horror goes further in the distance, maybe that’ll be easier to digest for Israeli supporters like me. Hamas talking points, such that this land is 100% ours, is…offensive.

If you're speaking of the Masada, most (if not all) historians consider that a myth.  A tale passed through the centuries to give Jews a common purpose and a story of fighting.  Not that it's super relevant here, but if that's the reference, I just thought I would mention that.  

I think it's also important to note that Fatah is the ruling party of Palestine.  And that Hamas technically only controls Gaza and it's through force.  

That the Romans murdered the Israelis or that some never left? I was not referring to that specific battle fwiw, just a generalization that some never left.

mickeyrat

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

scrolled through that and saw nothing like you suggest. which update?

benjs

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

All I see are airstrikes and starving the entire population of fuel and water until the captives are returned by Hamas. Am I missing something because those seem antithetical to the pursuit of peace.

Gern Blansten

https://twitter.com/WaPoSean/status/1712439465002586363

seems about right

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

But are people assuming that he knew the exact date/time/location of the attack? Or was it just "an attack is being planned" type of thing? Reminds me of 9/11 where we knew an attack was being planned but had no idea how/when.

mickeyrat

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

But are people assuming that he knew the exact date/time/location of the attack? Or was it just "an attack is being planned" type of thing? Reminds me of 9/11 where we knew an attack was being planned but had no idea how/when.

and did nothing about it..... at all.

Gern Blansten

mickeyrat said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

But are people assuming that he knew the exact date/time/location of the attack? Or was it just "an attack is being planned" type of thing? Reminds me of 9/11 where we knew an attack was being planned but had no idea how/when.

and did nothing about it..... at all.

But do we really know that? There could have been things done internally that we just aren't aware of. 

It just seems very early to put much stock in stories like these. Of course I could be wrong.

mickeyrat

Gern Blansten said:

mickeyrat said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

But are people assuming that he knew the exact date/time/location of the attack? Or was it just "an attack is being planned" type of thing? Reminds me of 9/11 where we knew an attack was being planned but had no idea how/when.

and did nothing about it..... at all.

But do we really know that? There could have been things done internally that we just aren't aware of. 

It just seems very early to put much stock in stories like these. Of course I could be wrong.

I meant us....

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1712384141608550899?t=iiDASCyiF6dIuA6jub33iw&s=19

HughFreakingDillon

Gern Blansten said:

mickeyrat said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1712158446185861611?t=UzL503jwkDl7vZhtv1zcBg&s=19

If this proves to be true, shit's gonna hit the fan.

But are people assuming that he knew the exact date/time/location of the attack? Or was it just "an attack is being planned" type of thing? Reminds me of 9/11 where we knew an attack was being planned but had no idea how/when.

and did nothing about it..... at all.

But do we really know that? There could have been things done internally that we just aren't aware of. 

It just seems very early to put much stock in stories like these. Of course I could be wrong.

it would confirm my suspicion that the Hamas attack was "convenient" for netanyahu. perfect opportunity to eradicate palestinians, commit war crimes, all while keeping the support of the world at large. 

anyone who thinks this asshole wants peace, I got an trump infrastructure week plan to show you. 

Lerxst1992

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

All I see are airstrikes and starving the entire population of fuel and water until the captives are returned by Hamas. Am I missing something because those seem antithetical to the pursuit of peace.

They are offering humanitarian aid. Doesn't happen all too often for the benefit of an invader

tbergs

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

All I see are airstrikes and starving the entire population of fuel and water until the captives are returned by Hamas. Am I missing something because those seem antithetical to the pursuit of peace.

Yeah, I saw the strike targets and found it sickening some of the places they were hitting; hospitals and mosques.

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1712473612442276256?t=DAnDJx4D-AnEwAm_ZJ2Lkg&s=19

mickeyrat

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Israel is first to offer something towards  peace

http://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-12-23/index.html

All I see are airstrikes and starving the entire population of fuel and water until the captives are returned by Hamas. Am I missing something because those seem antithetical to the pursuit of peace.

They are offering humanitarian aid. Doesn't happen all too often for the benefit of an invader

must be small comfort given that Israel has shut of fuel, electricity and water before this gesture was offered.

Lerxst1992

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

benjs

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow? 

HughFreakingDillon

of course: it's everyone else's fault, and no one gets it but me. 

HughFreakingDillon

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"