Meanwhile back in Israel

static111

Halifax2TheMax said:

Not that I believe but it can’t hurt, or can it?

Thoughts and prayers? Hasn't worked here yet.

HughFreakingDillon

benjs said:

nicknyr15 said:

If we’re gonna sit here and post tweets please also post the chants and scenes from the Palestinian demonstrations as well. 

To be fair, on Facebook, what you see is based on what you've engaged with and who your friends are. On Twitter, it's what you've engaged with and who you follow. Depending on consumption patterns, it could be pretty tricky to find a steady stream of content that deviates so far from your own viewpoints (based on what you've revealed about yourself to Twitter). I also don't put the onus on mickeyrat to argue against a point he's trying to draw attention to - that's for others who know enough to believe it false, and who care enough to rebut.

@mickeyrat - feel free not to answer this (I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity), but do you see a plurality of opinions on the situation in Gaza on your Twitter, or mostly pretty consistent?

I see about a 70/30 split on my feed in support for Israel/Palestine. 

mrussel1

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

TO WHERE!?!?!

No kidding!
Swim? 

If they would only accept Judeo- Christianity,, they could simply part the Red Sea and walk.  It's their own fault. 

brianlux

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

TO WHERE!?!?!

No kidding!
Swim? 

If they would only accept Judeo- Christianity,, they could simply part the Red Sea and walk.  It's their own fault. 

But if they are go that route and turn around to see if they are being followed, they will turn into pillars of salt.  You just can't win when it come to religion. 

HughFreakingDillon

https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46

Great thread about the history of the region and who ruled and when. 

mickeyrat

benjs said:

nicknyr15 said:

If we’re gonna sit here and post tweets please also post the chants and scenes from the Palestinian demonstrations as well. 

To be fair, on Facebook, what you see is based on what you've engaged with and who your friends are. On Twitter, it's what you've engaged with and who you follow. Depending on consumption patterns, it could be pretty tricky to find a steady stream of content that deviates so far from your own viewpoints (based on what you've revealed about yourself to Twitter). I also don't put the onus on mickeyrat to argue against a point he's trying to draw attention to - that's for others who know enough to believe it false, and who care enough to rebut.

@mickeyrat - feel free not to answer this (I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity), but do you see a plurality of opinions on the situation in Gaza on your Twitter, or mostly pretty consistent?

split.  fairly evenly.

the fairest is the condemnation of hamas, israels heavier hand and the reminder that essentially its the civilians of all walks of life bearing the brunt of this.

in no way shape or form do I believe the actions taken on Saturday were justfied. In part understood where it came from but to go full on isis is a bad move.

the tweets reflecting the callousness toward palestinian lives are important to share in my opinion to counter a narrow viewpoint by a couple here.

Gaza will be rubble by Monday. Close to 2 million stuck in the midst of it.

We heard during 9/11 the bloodlust revenge mindset here. Seeing it there now, directly from israeli government officials. and in part from elected officials here too.

All of it is sickening and further cements an opinion that the earth would be better off without  humans on it mucking up the place.

brianlux

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Halifax2TheMax

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Solution: Saudi Arabia, the region and the world would be a better place if the Saudi's had invested $2B in Gaza for infrastructure, jobs, education, healthcare, etc. rather than giving it to Jared Dear Boy. Similarly, the US would be better off getting off oil and telling the two major players with a peace agreement between them, Israel and Egypt, that we're not going to subsidize them anymore to the tune of $3.3B and $1.3B per year, respectively, and we're cutting your budget 10% a year for 10 years until its zero. So, you've got 10 years to figure out what the hell you're going to do to learn to live, trade, thrive with one another.  Enough is enough. Promise aid to Palestine contingent upon renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel's right to exist, coming to peace terms and working toward policing your own. Peace includes Iran, Syria, the gulf states and the Arab League of nations with a western pledge to stop meddling in their affairs and butting the fuck out. Violence, terrorism and threats to areas outside the region will be met with consequences. In other words, take care of your own and be good neighbors. If Europe can do it after WW2 with the creation of the EU, certainly the ME can do it. A ME EU, if you will. Countries that trade together and are economically tied together flourish.

Not easy, easier said than done, given the history, and a pipe dream. I realize there's a ton of shit between the parties and history, inclusive of US meddling, etc. What's happening now is another generation of Israelis and Palestinians hating each other and wishing their demise. I won't live long enough to see peace in the region. Petra, the Nile River and the Pyramids, and all the other amazing historical locations are a bucket list item. Sad.

brianlux

Halifax2TheMax said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Solution: Saudi Arabia, the region and the world would be a better place if the Saudi's had invested $2B in Gaza for infrastructure, jobs, education, healthcare, etc. rather than giving it to Jared Dear Boy. Similarly, the US would be better off getting off oil and telling the two major players with a peace agreement between them, Israel and Egypt, that we're not going to subsidize them anymore to the tune of $3.3B and $1.3B per year, respectively, and we're cutting your budget 10% a year for 10 years until its zero. So, you've got 10 years to figure out what the hell you're going to do to learn to live, trade, thrive with one another.  Enough is enough. Promise aid to Palestine contingent upon renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel's right to exist, coming to peace terms and working toward policing your own. Peace includes Iran, Syria, the gulf states and the Arab League of nations with a western pledge to stop meddling in their affairs and butting the fuck out. Violence, terrorism and threats to areas outside the region will be met with consequences. In other words, take care of your own and be good neighbors. If Europe can do it after WW2 with the creation of the EU, certainly the ME can do it. A ME EU, if you will. Countries that trade together and are economically tied together flourish.

Not easy, easier said than done, given the history, and a pipe dream. I realize there's a ton of shit between the parties and history, inclusive of US meddling, etc. What's happening now is another generation of Israelis and Palestinians hating each other and wishing their demise. I won't live long enough to see peace in the region. Petra, the Nile River and the Pyramids, and all the other amazing historical locations are a bucket list item. Sad.

Impressive!  That makes damn good sense.  I could not have come up with a better plan.  

Sadly, we are not a logical or sensible species.  Inability to understand the sensibility of delayed gratification, not enough wisdom to make good choices, respecting others cultural differences, not letting religion interfere with international affairs, extreme nationalism... all of this and more stand in the way.  But offering up sensible solutions might at least push things in a better direction. 

Thanks for taking the time to post your ideas!

mickeyrat

BBC News - BBC journalists held at gunpoint by Israeli police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67102956

Lerxst1992

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow? 

They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.

BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct

Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.

1. My statement equated to "Egypt has precedence to believe Israel would seize land if vacated of Palestinians" - I even referenced historical events. Yes, Israel has given land back in their past too, but I was (pretty obviously) expressing why Egypt has grounds to say what they did. Am I wrong? 

2. I didn't say Palestine was a sovereign nation (nor do I think I even implied it). I'm not sure what point you're trying to make/argue in this statement.

3. "Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims." 

As a Jew in a Jewish community, I'm all too familiar with the "I know more than you, you've been fed lies and believed them, so why don't you just shut it, simpleton" that comes out as a unified voice from the community whenever a criticism of Israeli behaviours is lobbed.

My conclusion has been pretty simple - if someone wants to debate with you, but wants you to know first and foremost how much superior they and their opinions are - they want you to accept their opinions carte blanche, and they are disinterested in a genuine debate. And if they're disinterested in a genuine debate, I'm not interested at all. So I'm out. Y'all have fun - none of this matters and none of this changes anyways.

I was attempting to comment based on facts and not speculate. I do not recall using the word superior. However, it was horrible reading this topic last Saturday as the news of the attacks unfolded, I have checked many times and found zero expressions of sympathy towards the 1500 dead Israeli civilians on that specific day. Only comments about occupation, which as you know, is quite some distance from Gaza. And I was even corrected by someone by not citing fatah is not the same as Hamas.

At the time I commented before your reply, I was surprised you would ask if Israel were interested in taking over Gaza. Since you seem interested in a reply, I will guess that I am unaware of any evidence that any country in the region wants anything to do with that land. 

given the news today, that Israel wants Gaza civilians evacuated to the south, it made me consider that a DMZ in northern Gaza might be an option. If that’s true that would be a partial yes.

pjl44

Brandi Carlile's eloquence 


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyOyUk2SbGW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

static111

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

What haters of Israel? Expressing sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians and understanding of why some people there would lash out does not make someone a hater of Israel.

Gaza is not a country or a government, how could Gaza invade anything?  I'm pretty sure Hamas attacked Israel.

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

Those treaties made in the 90's are irrelevant, L.  So much has changed since then and nothing that went down 30 years ago is going to change a thing here.  Bush, Obama, that is all old news in this fast changing world.

You are not making your case any stronger by using words like "left wing haters of Israel".  How many people on this thread do you see as being Israel haters? Obviously not me.  Most of the comments that have been critical of Israel are not critical of the country but, rather, are critical of Netanyau and his people, not the Israeli people.  No one here wanted them to be killed.  And if I were to say you are a hater of Palestine, I would hope that would be incorrect and that, in fact, you hate the Hamas, not all Palestinians.  Yes?

I don't know what you have invested in all this, but I'm guessing, as with one or two others here as well, you have some strong ties to Israel.  That's fine- some people are more nationalistic than I am, but I accept that they (and possible you) are.  But by now it must be obvious to you that being an Israeli nationalist and not recognizing or at least acknowledging that Israeli leaders have dirty hands in this thing too, you are going to continue to be unhappy and frustrated with this thread and change no ones mind.  My own tendency to be at least somewhat defensive of Palestinians is because so much of what is being projected in the news and opinion pieces, etc. does not recognize that this is a two way street and that sometimes the collision on that street is caused by aggression from one side, and sometimes the other.

So in a nutshell, my own believe is that the powers that be on both sides are full of shit and it's their reckless actions that leads to the suffering of many innocent civilians. Fuck the Israeli leaders and fuck the Hamas, I say.  Save the people.

One last thing:  I have a feeling I might be losing a few friends here as a result of having posted my thoughts here.  All I can think of to say about that is this quote:

"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause.  Never reject a friend to help an institution.  Great nations may fall into ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."

-Edward Abbey

mickeyrat

full on ISIS shit.....

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1712943385424642281?t=reuy9WvA4nQHOPGyUWCuZQ&s=19

F Me In The Brain

I was unaware that Gaza was a nation/state.

They are in big trouble, whatever they are, based on what we are hearing.  

I understand the desire to react and bomb people back to the stone age.  Felt that way after 911
  Thankfully we didn't do that, the world was a different place,  although we did certainly have a strong reaction.  Lost so many lives on our side, and it got us pretty much nothing.  

War sucks.

Edit - I live in a predominantly Jewish city, almost all of our neighbors, friends, friends of kids, kids on teams we coach, etc, are Jewish.  Our schools have had issues this week with the McCarthy type of call outs against anyone who says anything other than "I stand with Isreal" and our kids' schools all have cops all over outside.
I very much feel for the losses for the people of Isreal, the people that our community is connected to and the loss of human life.

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1712957726106480809?t=9EAXZzesyrnn2xJ-Rt6Sdg&s=19

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1712957726106480809?t=9EAXZzesyrnn2xJ-Rt6Sdg&s=19

Whew.. says it all. 

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1712925990647685432?t=n749tlBHqYI65C_TF1r3UA&s=19