Meanwhile back in Israel

mickeyrat

https://twitter.com/SarahKSilverman/status/1712561506154672194?t=z4ZoYd_ofkJ-VesVjSJwcw&s=19

mickeyrat

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes-icc-1a42212b95a7f6ce54909fb22e0d681d   Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

 

Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL

Yesterday

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.

A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.

“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”

Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.

U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”

DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?

After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.

The attacks killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades.

Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”

In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.

Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.

“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.

“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.

IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?

The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.

Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.

Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”

Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.

Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.

But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.

“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.

The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.

Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.

But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.

“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”

The Israeli army says it follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.

“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”

CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?

While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.

The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.

But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.

___

Frankel reported from Jerusalem.

Halifax2TheMax

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

Oh yes, the Oslo Accords. Funny that. Did you mention that Rabin walked away when it became politically untenable to deliver thus paving the way for Bibi? Israel and its voters don't own that, right? Yet, the Palestinians own Hamas, right? Further, you mention the West Bank as if it was supposed to be shared but in reality, was it? Or did Israel take all the best parts, wall them off and restrict access to Palestinians? Was there freedom of movement for the Palestinians? Was not the most water rich, arid land sectioned off for Israel, over time? Were the Palestinians not treated like uninvited guests from 1993 onward? You post as if that history doesn't exist and is some kind of left wing, Palestinian propaganda. Please. We're all not as ill-informed or ignorant of the history as you assume.

Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?

March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?

1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?

1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?

September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.

June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.

I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.

Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).

And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.

PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?

Halifax2TheMax

Are you okay with, hey evacuate but we're going to kill you anyway? Lerxst?

Palestinians killed while apparently evacuating, video shows

Return to menu

By Joyce Lee

 and 

Samuel Oakford

A graphic video verified by The Washington Post showed the aftermath of a deadly strike along Gaza’s main highway Friday, part of a wave of Israeli attacks that killed dozens and injured more than 200 people fleeing northern Gaza, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza.

The video, recorded along Salah Al-Deen road, shows bodies, including several young children, strewn along the road as black smoke rises from vehicles engulfed in flames. On the north-facing side of the road, bodies are laid out amid personal belongings, including a bicycle, on flatbed trailers attached to a truck.

The video was first geolocated by open-source researchers Chris Osieck and Gabòr Friesen and confirmed by The Post.

Late Thursday, Israel ordered the evacuation of northern Gaza’s 1.1 million residents within 24 hours, the United Nations said. On Friday, the Israeli military dropped leaflets over Gaza City telling residents to “evacuate your homes immediately and go to the south.”

Hamas’s surprise incursion on Oct. 7 killed at least 1,300 people in Israel, authorities said. Palestinian officials said the subsequent Israeli strikes have killed more than 1,799 people in Gaza.

The Israel Defense Forces did not have an immediate response.

Halifax2TheMax

Can anyone explain to me why Israel hires Thais to harvest crops? Shortage of labor? Thailand is nearby? What is the reasoning? Anyone?

Halifax2TheMax

mickeyrat said:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes-icc-1a42212b95a7f6ce54909fb22e0d681d   Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

 

Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL

Yesterday

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.

A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.

“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”

Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.

U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”

DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?

After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.

The attacks killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades.

Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”

In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.

Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.

“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.

“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.

IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?

The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.

Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.

Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”

Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.

Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.

But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.

“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.

The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.

Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.

But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.

“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”

The Israeli army says itT follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.

“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”

CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?

While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.

The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.

But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.

___

Frankel reported from Jerusalem.

Does anyone living in reality believe that? Anyone? Lerxst? Are you okay with this approach? In the interest of "defending Israel?" More importantly, do you believe that?

benjs

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew

And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2. 

Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.

For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof  this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.


Today, 

"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"


https://www.reuters.com/world/egypt-discussing-plans-provide-aid-gaza-under-limited-ceasefire-security-sources-2023-10-11/

PA support of blockade

Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]

In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]

In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

 

Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow? 

They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.

BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct

Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.

1. My statement equated to "Egypt has precedence to believe Israel would seize land if vacated of Palestinians" - I even referenced historical events. Yes, Israel has given land back in their past too, but I was (pretty obviously) expressing why Egypt has grounds to say what they did. Am I wrong? 

2. I didn't say Palestine was a sovereign nation (nor do I think I even implied it). I'm not sure what point you're trying to make/argue in this statement.

3. "Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims." 

As a Jew in a Jewish community, I'm all too familiar with the "I know more than you, you've been fed lies and believed them, so why don't you just shut it, simpleton" that comes out as a unified voice from the community whenever a criticism of Israeli behaviours is lobbed.

My conclusion has been pretty simple - if someone wants to debate with you, but wants you to know first and foremost how much superior they and their opinions are - they want you to accept their opinions carte blanche, and they are disinterested in a genuine debate. And if they're disinterested in a genuine debate, I'm not interested at all. So I'm out. Y'all have fun - none of this matters and none of this changes anyways.

I was attempting to comment based on facts and not speculate. I do not recall using the word superior. However, it was horrible reading this topic last Saturday as the news of the attacks unfolded, I have checked many times and found zero expressions of sympathy towards the 1500 dead Israeli civilians on that specific day. Only comments about occupation, which as you know, is quite some distance from Gaza. And I was even corrected by someone by not citing fatah is not the same as Hamas.

At the time I commented before your reply, I was surprised you would ask if Israel were interested in taking over Gaza. Since you seem interested in a reply, I will guess that I am unaware of any evidence that any country in the region wants anything to do with that land. 

given the news today, that Israel wants Gaza civilians evacuated to the south, it made me consider that a DMZ in northern Gaza might be an option. If that’s true that would be a partial yes.

As I think we can all acknowledge, it's incredibly hard to remove emotionality from this situation. I apologize if I let my inner frustration/exhaustion show, and thanks for responding, lerxt, as well as the specifics. I'm exhausted by feeling like the most I can do is be a keyboard warrior and discuss a situation that does. not. change. ever.

I explained why I felt Israel would take over Gaza - I feel it's based on precedence to expand as originally seen in the six-day war first, and ongoing precedence by the Israeli government's consistent turning a blind eye over settlement expansion. It shouldn't come as a surprise that Egypt stated this could happen, and I don't think history shows it to be a farfetched notion.

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

Those treaties made in the 90's are irrelevant, L.  So much has changed since then and nothing that went down 30 years ago is going to change a thing here.  Bush, Obama, that is all old news in this fast changing world.

You are not making your case any stronger by using words like "left wing haters of Israel".  How many people on this thread do you see as being Israel haters? Obviously not me.  Most of the comments that have been critical of Israel are not critical of the country but, rather, are critical of Netanyau and his people, not the Israeli people.  No one here wanted them to be killed.  And if I were to say you are a hater of Palestine, I would hope that would be incorrect and that, in fact, you hate the Hamas, not all Palestinians.  Yes?

I don't know what you have invested in all this, but I'm guessing, as with one or two others here as well, you have some strong ties to Israel.  That's fine- some people are more nationalistic than I am, but I accept that they (and possible you) are.  But by now it must be obvious to you that being an Israeli nationalist and not recognizing or at least acknowledging that Israeli leaders have dirty hands in this thing too, you are going to continue to be unhappy and frustrated with this thread and change no ones mind.  My own tendency to be at least somewhat defensive of Palestinians is because so much of what is being projected in the news and opinion pieces, etc. does not recognize that this is a two way street and that sometimes the collision on that street is caused by aggression from one side, and sometimes the other.

So in a nutshell, my own believe is that the powers that be on both sides are full of shit and it's their reckless actions that leads to the suffering of many innocent civilians. Fuck the Israeli leaders and fuck the Hamas, I say.  Save the people.

One last thing:  I have a feeling I might be losing a few friends here as a result of having posted my thoughts here.  All I can think of to say about that is this quote:

"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause.  Never reject a friend to help an institution.  Great nations may fall into ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."

-Edward Abbey

How am I invested in this? I just don’t want WWIII to be caused by an authoritarian terrorist organization that has refused peace and the concept of sharing and negotiation at every opportunity. To agree with people who want to drive the entirety of an American ally nation with an elite military into the Mediterranean?  To agree with people who provoke an elite military and then point the finger at their victims? That’s who the commenters here supported last Saturday.

a lot of the security and stability we enjoy is because of the American peace  process. Peace thru strength , peace thru negotiation. But we have many in North America thinking the 1800s were better? The 1700s were more stable and secure? Hitler winning would have been better? Sure America ain’t perfect, and many of us complain about it here, but when push comes to shove, most countries that have signed on the dotted line, are better off in terms of stability.

 And invested on a secondary level, I am concerned the small extreme slice of the American left that rails against Israeli “occupation” will solve zero problems, other  than bringing trump back in power next November.

to call West Bank peace treaties irrelevant is difficult to agree with, because the West Bank has been shared and administered as a direct result of those treaties. For decades Israel had a center left govt looking for peace, and what happened? Their civilians got murdered in cold blood, just like last Saturday. Same result when they voted for the Netanyahu thug.

The only way for Palestine to get a better agreement is to negotiate. But when all they seem to care about is to control these lands  from the river to the sea, how do the Israelis exist with that? Palestines informal anthem is sung to the tune of ethnic cleansing. Israel has a track record of peace deals, they ain’t perfect but they’re better than singing songs of joy to the tune of ethnic cleansing.

the only solution here is the bargaining table. 

And the only reason this specific war is occurring now was the potential for a Saudi peace deal. 

Lerxst1992

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

Oh yes, the Oslo Accords. Funny that. Did you mention that Rabin walked away when it became politically untenable to deliver thus paving the way for Bibi? Israel and its voters don't own that, right? Yet, the Palestinians own Hamas, right? Further, you mention the West Bank as if it was supposed to be shared but in reality, was it? Or did Israel take all the best parts, wall them off and restrict access to Palestinians? Was there freedom of movement for the Palestinians? Was not the most water rich, arid land sectioned off for Israel, over time? Were the Palestinians not treated like uninvited guests from 1993 onward? You post as if that history doesn't exist and is some kind of left wing, Palestinian propaganda. Please. We're all not as ill-informed or ignorant of the history as you assume.

Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?

March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?

1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?

1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?

September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.

June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.

I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.

Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).

And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.

PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?

Geez Hal,I’m appreciate the effort, that’s a lot to unpack. Maybe one at a time in the future? 

Firstly, I’ll revisit the wash rinse repeat. Maybe if that comment were on Wednesday, I could have peacefully digested that?  But last Saturday, while 1500 Israelis were being murdered? Repeat? Do you have another example of an invasion from Gaza? I don’t think you get how harmful that comment was.

by “precisely” I am referring to areas A B and C, which still exist today. bad word selection by me. Of course that deal can be and should be improved for the Palestinians, but their only interest is the River to the Sea. How do Israelis negotiate with that? Still yet they should.


edit, I understand Rabin was assassinated and by whom, what you conveniently forgot to mention was the fifty terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, I believe mostly by Hamas and not fatah, they swayed Israel to vote in the thug.

Lerxst1992

Halifax2TheMax said:

mickeyrat said:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes-icc-1a42212b95a7f6ce54909fb22e0d681d   Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

 

Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight

By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL

Yesterday

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.

A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.

“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”

Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.

U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”

DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?

After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.

The attacks killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades.

Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”

In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.

Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.

“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.

“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.

IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?

The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.

Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.

Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”

Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.

Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.

But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.

“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.

The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.

Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.

But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.

“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”

The Israeli army says itT follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.

“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”

CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?

While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.

The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.

But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.

___

Frankel reported from Jerusalem.

Does anyone living in reality believe that? Anyone? Lerxst? Are you okay with this approach? In the interest of "defending Israel?" More importantly, do you believe that?

Should they not make an attempt to remove Hamas? Had Hamas not attacked October 7, zero of your comment would have existed in the news. YES Israel has done bad things in the past, but one thing in this terrible crisis…specific actions should require specific blame. On Oct 6 the Gaza people had food and water and Israelis were traveling to a music festival.

Halifax2TheMax

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas.  I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people.  I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).

So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled?  Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad?  If not, what solutions do you propose.

Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.

Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?

the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?

have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.

Oh yes, the Oslo Accords. Funny that. Did you mention that Rabin walked away when it became politically untenable to deliver thus paving the way for Bibi? Israel and its voters don't own that, right? Yet, the Palestinians own Hamas, right? Further, you mention the West Bank as if it was supposed to be shared but in reality, was it? Or did Israel take all the best parts, wall them off and restrict access to Palestinians? Was there freedom of movement for the Palestinians? Was not the most water rich, arid land sectioned off for Israel, over time? Were the Palestinians not treated like uninvited guests from 1993 onward? You post as if that history doesn't exist and is some kind of left wing, Palestinian propaganda. Please. We're all not as ill-informed or ignorant of the history as you assume.

Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?

March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?

1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?

1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?

September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.

June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.

I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.

Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).

And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.

PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?

Geez Hal,I’m appreciate the effort, that’s a lot to unpack. Maybe one at a time in the future? 

Firstly, I’ll revisit the wash rinse repeat. Maybe if that comment were on Wednesday, I could have peacefully digested that?  But last Saturday, while 1500 Israelis were being murdered? Repeat? Do you have another example of an invasion from Gaza? I don’t think you get how harmful that comment was.

by “precisely” I am referring to areas A B and C, which still exist today. bad word selection by me. Of course that deal can be and should be improved for the Palestinians, but their only interest is the River to the Sea. How do Israelis negotiate with that? Still yet they should.


edit, I understand Rabin was assassinated and by whom, what you conveniently forgot to mention was the fifty terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, I believe mostly by Hamas and not fatah, they swayed Israel to vote in the thug.

That’s it? History begins and ends in 1993 and with Rabin’s assassination? Unpack? Weren’t you exorcising the rest of us for our lack of knowledge before commenting?

You may want to walk back some of your blanket comments and acknowledge some of the history of the region.

HughFreakingDillon

I’m thinking “I stand with Israel” is going to diminish significantly after it becomes clear what Bibi’s true motivation is: 

https://x.com/msnbc/status/1712911792106602608?s=46

brianlux

Good article from NY Time, gifted here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/opinion/palestinian-ethical-resistance-answers-grief-and-rage.html?unlocked_article_code=EY_HbaOZA5oBRhvXlb-DZgYjiRW0TKLEq7tInxsv-svYHadtJcCv-jfHdjb7exc5UefwHCF2Ij-d8CaYGkHuBcNRrelebQ8ibsoIq7TY8bQ5OR9J3kPa3Z5mboCt4ue1F27a9icZMM576WpCxyUh6jRLW6o1U-YFoKLHLTlEjoobREcY1Yonm4sNLWbPtx_EZd_MjkFMNWFlcU_WnIiE537nDiFB-AaHsdahs8jSAJhbO6FrpgV5N_sI0JqpumnD6yNIE7yIQVmTMFo7bF429tf_41ZpA6Hed82r4MoFSYf7WvBQlyN5NbPpTrUTcgyRuOms2FGnhKmutZQzV1LHVT5hu7utG2szyEHzZ8nIzQFE95EfJitstqATzbmGWSG7&smid=url-share

Just to quote one section:

Hamas... has committed an unspeakable horror that may damage the Palestinian cause for decades to come. Yet when Palestinians resist their oppression in ethical ways — by calling for boycotts, sanctions and the application of international law — the United States and its allies work to ensure that those efforts fail, which convinces many Palestinians that ethical resistance doesn’t work, which empowers Hamas.

The savagery Hamas committed on Oct. 7 has made reversing this monstrous cycle much harder. It could take a generation. It will require a shared commitment to ending Palestinian oppression in ways that respect the infinite value of every human life. It will require Palestinians to forcefully oppose attacks on Jewish civilians, and Jews to support Palestinians when they resist oppression in humane ways — even though Palestinians and Jews who take such steps will risk making themselves pariahs among their own people. It will require new forms of political community, in Israel-Palestine and around the world, built around a democratic vision powerful enough to transcend tribal divides. The effort may fail. It has failed before. The alternative is to descend, flags waving, into hell.

This is how I see it.  People on both sides needs to start doing the right thing or forget it, all will go to hell.

And look, I'm tired it almost being implied that I am some kind of anti-Semite which is ridiculously far from the truth. SO. NOT. TRUE.  I'm done here.

gimmesometruth27

tbergs said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/PalBint/status/1712815918953136500?t=jo4_T89d3MF_0lO71RsH2Q&s=19

These extremist posts are just a bunch of propaganda bullshit. Go ahead and cue up the 1/06 footage and let the rest of the world see that the US is a nation of psychopaths.

the us IS a nation of psychopaths though. the rest of the world has known that for 20 years.

pjl44

Excellent speech by Mayor Adams

https://twitter.com/TheEliKlein/status/1712862214573404451?t=9TcR-Zt1G2hKnzZVlfjF4w&s=19

23scidoo

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

"yes, we're bombing the shit out of civilians, but it's self defense!"

Many folks on the left have been victims of significant misinformation from left radicals repeating Palestinian lies for years.  I use that term because they are far outside that of the Democratic party.

I have been attempting to provide facts and history about this terrible conflict 

I put up facts this am about the history of g aza, you reply indirectly at with ridicule. And I am not getting into the weeds that the Palestinians murdered hundreds of Israelis Saturday, then ran back underneath their civilians as a human shield. I challenge you to take a closer look at this conflict

Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community 

This current conflict exists because Hamas and Iran are freaking out about a potential Saudi peace treaty. That should be clear to all in the west. 

The problem here, L, is that your arguments are one sided.  You seem to refuse to acknowledge little if any wrong doing on the part of Israel.  So basically, what you are doing is using this thread to vent, not to instruct.  As long as you project the viewpoint that Israel has and can do no wrong, none of this is going to change anyone's perspective. 

"Israel has a long history of attempting to gain peace treaties with the Muslim community"

A real peace treaty says more than "Do it our way or no deal."

Isreal has 2 signed deals regarding west bank, ill check if the language there matches that quote

What I can say is not one commenter responded to multiple "river to the sea" comments by me. That seems equivalent to your "Do it our way or no deal."

As far as venting, a horrible attack on Saturday and I can't find one sympathetic comment, only blaming "Israelis terrorists" and occupation on that day. That sounds extremist. You heard about the Harvard law students getting into trouble blaming the attack on Israel? Good for them
...

I'll just put this here,  these are the people seemingly trusted on this forum

Netanyahu's office releases photos of "babies murdered and burned" by Hamas 

From CNN’s Richard Allen Greene in Jerusalem 

Oooops!!!
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/cnn-reporter-apologizes-for-defending-israeli-claims-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-/3019286

23scidoo

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/PalBint/status/1712815918953136500?t=jo4_T89d3MF_0lO71RsH2Q&s=19

https://youtube.com/shorts/JOf_woeTH1s?si=nEOWcdYz_9iiJ63j

23scidoo

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432

23scidoo

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231009-israel-expert-are-we-allowed-to-be-arrogant-without-paying-a-price/

23scidoo

gimmesometruth27 said:

tbergs said:

mickeyrat said:

https://twitter.com/PalBint/status/1712815918953136500?t=jo4_T89d3MF_0lO71RsH2Q&s=19

These extremist posts are just a bunch of propaganda bullshit. Go ahead and cue up the 1/06 footage and let the rest of the world see that the US is a nation of psychopaths.

the us IS a nation of psychopaths though. the rest of the world has known that for 20 years.

Trust me, more than 20..