Not at all. I've said several times that I like a lot of the SP music. Melon Collie is a brilliant CD. Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums. And when it comes to live shows, there's no comparison. Why are you insisting on saying my feelings are hurt? I disagree with corgans assessment of himself. The SP are not an influential band. Pearl jam is definitely not as relevant as they were in the mid to late 90's, but they've always been more relevant as the SP.
If you're only argument for corgan is that LB isn't a great CD, then there's not much there. As I've said, several times, the smashing pumpkins haven't written a good album in a long time.
Unreal how some feel it's not ok to make a good CD because it isn't experimental enough. Lightning bolt is a great album. Not just ok. It's great. But I guess since there's not a harpsichord or an accordian on it, it's not taking enough risks. .
people threw a fit with the piano on FD. So I wonder what would happen if those were used.
Next time I see Billy remind me to thank him for inspiring some creative discussion on here.
I don't care how many great, good, above average or bad records he has made in his life he is still a douche bag and will always be a douche bag! I liked his music in the 90's until I realized that he ultimately sounds like a cat in heat with his whinny voice. You can only take so much of it.
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
One more thing as far as relevance goes? Who the hell determines relevance? It can't be album sales because almost no 20 plus year old band sells many records. Shit U2 had to give their album away but watch ESPN as Pearl Jam gets mentioned or referenced on there like every five minutes. Their music catalog was purchased by Fox Sports last year to be the soundtrack for the fucking world series. They have songs on several TV shows. They get invited to perform on countless talk shows. Shit, they had Pearl Jam week on Jimmy Fallon which is the number one talk show on tv. Oh lets see, what else, oh I know!, Cameron Crow who is one of the premier music critics/movie producers in the history of rock and roll decided to make a movie about them. He could have made a movie with any band he wanted but chose Pearl Jam.
Yeah, I guess their not very relevant anymore. Maybe they should employ more cowbell?
Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums.
Oh come on, Siamese Dream, SIAMESE DREAM! That album is absolutely airtight perfection.
I think I connect with Pearl Jam more on a lyrical basis, and Eddie is by far the better singer, but the musicianship on Siamese Dream is insanely good.
Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums.
Oh come on, Siamese Dream, SIAMESE DREAM! That album is absolutely airtight perfection.
I think I connect with Pearl Jam more on a lyrical basis, and Eddie is by far the better singer, but the musicianship on Siamese Dream is insanely good.
Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums.
Oh come on, Siamese Dream, SIAMESE DREAM! That album is absolutely airtight perfection.
I think I connect with Pearl Jam more on a lyrical basis, and Eddie is by far the better singer, but the musicianship on Siamese Dream is insanely good.
gotta agree here, siamese is a classic
I'm happy for you. Great CD. If I had to put a Pj CD up against it, Vitalogy for example (only because I don't know when Siamese dreams was released.) Song for song, I'm taking Vitalogy.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,312
Not at all. I've said several times that I like a lot of the SP music. Melon Collie is a brilliant CD. Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums. And when it comes to live shows, there's no comparison. Why are you insisting on saying my feelings are hurt? I disagree with corgans assessment of himself. The SP are not an influential band. Pearl jam is definitely not as relevant as they were in the mid to late 90's, but they've always been more relevant as the SP.
If you're only argument for corgan is that LB isn't a great CD, then there's not much there. As I've said, several times, the smashing pumpkins haven't written a good album in a long time.
i don't think you understand the argument. you seem so caught up in being hurt by what corgan said and wanting to bash him that it's clouding your mind. obviously pj is the better band. don't be so insecure about that where you feel the need to defend them so much.
my thing is his assessment of the foos, while accurate, should've been the same assessment of pj instead of "they don't have the songs." obviously pj has the songs. they just, in my mind, havn't evolved as much as i've liked over the last 10 years or so. that's something a lot of people have been saying for years even before corgan said it.
i'm actually having a hard time wrapping my head around you thinking lightning bolt is a "great" album, though. you really think that? i mean do you put it on the same level as any of their first 5 albums? they're all great. tough to be much better than great, right?
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,312
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
see that's the thing. i'd love for them to go back to making different sounding albums that may end up alienating and losing more people. that's when they were at their best. problem is, i believe they've tried to do the opposite over the last decade by making more mainstream sounding music to draw in a bigger audience......the results have been mixed. mostly average to good albums (and backspacer) that sound cool live....but ultimately are more inconsistent and less challenging than their best work.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
I think the "different producer" slant I advocated is more about collaboration than experimentation. I'm pretty sure no one wants a foxymop 2, or a disco record. Using an outside producer may involve the band members giving up a certain measure of control, (a minimal measure for sure, but some...) and be open to the process of an "authority figure" in the booth or in the room with them who wants to take the band's dynamic and challenge them to make a better rock record. Except for Binaural, I haven't seen that happen with PJ up to this point in the band's career.
Just my opinion, I think they're comfortable with the structure that they've worked out for themselves. That gets us a band with a tightfisted control over output, singles like Ole, and records like Avocado and Back Spacer. (all three of which I like, dont get me wrong...)
I listened to Siamese Dream yesterday front to back for the 1st time in a long time. That album kills. It is the only SP CD that I ever bought.
I think the "different producer" slant I advocated is more about collaboration than experimentation. I'm pretty sure no one wants a foxymop 2, or a disco record. Using an outside producer may involve the band members giving up a certain measure of control, (a minimal measure for sure, but some...) and be open to the process of an "authority figure" in the booth or in the room with them who wants to take the band's dynamic and challenge them to make a better rock record. Except for Binaural, I haven't seen that happen with PJ up to this point in the band's career.
Just my opinion, I think they're comfortable with the structure that they've worked out for themselves. That gets us a band with a tightfisted control over output, singles like Ole, and records like Avocado and Back Spacer. (all three of which I like, dont get me wrong...)
I listened to Siamese Dream yesterday front to back for the 1st time in a long time. That album kills. It is the only SP CD that I ever bought.
I think the "different producer" slant I advocated is more about collaboration than experimentation. I'm pretty sure no one wants a foxymop 2, or a disco record. Using an outside producer may involve the band members giving up a certain measure of control, (a minimal measure for sure, but some...) and be open to the process of an "authority figure" in the booth or in the room with them who wants to take the band's dynamic and challenge them to make a better rock record. Except for Binaural, I haven't seen that happen with PJ up to this point in the band's career.
Just my opinion, I think they're comfortable with the structure that they've worked out for themselves. That gets us a band with a tightfisted control over output, singles like Ole, and records like Avocado and Back Spacer. (all three of which I like, dont get me wrong...)
I listened to Siamese Dream yesterday front to back for the 1st time in a long time. That album kills. It is the only SP CD that I ever bought.
Go listen to Gish and turn the volume up!
Yeah, Tiki and also Pisces Iscariot. You will dig both of those too.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
One more thing as far as relevance goes? Who the hell determines relevance? It can't be album sales because almost no 20 plus year old band sells many records. Shit U2 had to give their album away but watch ESPN as Pearl Jam gets mentioned or referenced on there like every five minutes. Their music catalog was purchased by Fox Sports last year to be the soundtrack for the fucking world series. They have songs on several TV shows. They get invited to perform on countless talk shows. Shit, they had Pearl Jam week on Jimmy Fallon which is the number one talk show on tv. Oh lets see, what else, oh I know!, Cameron Crow who is one of the premier music critics/movie producers in the history of rock and roll decided to make a movie about them. He could have made a movie with any band he wanted but chose Pearl Jam.
Yeah, I guess their not very relevant anymore. Maybe they should employ more cowbell?
I've always wondered myself what it even means to be relevant. if the music is relevant to someone, then they are relevant.
and I agree with the person who called out those who site album sales marking a good band when it suits their needs but then bashing people who say "album sales mean nothing" when it comes to artists they don't like.
Any band that has lasted as long as PJ is going to have their best material behind them. that's just the way it goes. Rolling Stones? Yep. U2? Yep. Green Day? Yep. Foo Fighters? Yep. Pumpkins? Yep.
in rock n roll, you make your best records when you are passionate/angry. as you get older, you tend to lose some or all of that youthful....I'll call it intensity, especially when kids come into your life (I speak from experience as a musician/songwriter and father). I can't claim to know the band's creative process as I don't know any of them personally, and I think anyone claiming to know that the band is playing it safe to get sales is misguided. you don't know their intentions. I can GUESS that I don't believe that to be true. What I have heard them say is they no longer CARE if they get a hit, meaning Ed/the band no longer suppresses releasing radio-friendly songs like they used to. I don't believe that to be catering to the audience. I believe that to be just releasing what you want and if it sticks, fine, but if it doesn't, I don't know that they'd care. But I could be wrong. Again, I don't know them. They promote their albums now like any other band does. it's not overtly commercial. it just seems that way since they used to do NONE. Every musician wants their music to be shared. that's the point of music. but they pulled back in the past because if they did promotion around the time of VS, it would have been even more insane for them than it is was.
no one is hurt by what corgan says. everyone knows he calls out anyone and everyone so he can get noticed in the press. that's just what he does. but I don't see a problem with discussing it; it's made for an interesting topic.
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
see that's the thing. i'd love for them to go back to making different sounding albums that may end up alienating and losing more people. that's when they were at their best. problem is, i believe they've tried to do the opposite over the last decade by making more mainstream sounding music to draw in a bigger audience......the results have been mixed. mostly average to good albums (and backspacer) that sound cool live....but ultimately are more inconsistent and less challenging than their best work.
I hear ya Juggler but you may be out of luck. You look at other long running legendary bands such as The Beatles, U2 , The Who, Stones etc. and you will see an album or 2 of experimentation but then it's back to doing what they are most comfortable doing. I guess thats when you keep your ears peeled for the next groundbreaking band to hit?
Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums.
Oh come on, Siamese Dream, SIAMESE DREAM! That album is absolutely airtight perfection.
I think I connect with Pearl Jam more on a lyrical basis, and Eddie is by far the better singer, but the musicianship on Siamese Dream is insanely good.
Not at all. I've said several times that I like a lot of the SP music. Melon Collie is a brilliant CD. Also, in my opinion, none of the SP albums can compare to any of the PJ albums. And when it comes to live shows, there's no comparison. Why are you insisting on saying my feelings are hurt? I disagree with corgans assessment of himself. The SP are not an influential band. Pearl jam is definitely not as relevant as they were in the mid to late 90's, but they've always been more relevant as the SP.
If you're only argument for corgan is that LB isn't a great CD, then there's not much there. As I've said, several times, the smashing pumpkins haven't written a good album in a long time.
i don't think you understand the argument. you seem so caught up in being hurt by what corgan said and wanting to bash him that it's clouding your mind. obviously pj is the better band. don't be so insecure about that where you feel the need to defend them so much.
my thing is his assessment of the foos, while accurate, should've been the same assessment of pj instead of "they don't have the songs." obviously pj has the songs. they just, in my mind, havn't evolved as much as i've liked over the last 10 years or so. that's something a lot of people have been saying for years even before corgan said it.
i'm actually having a hard time wrapping my head around you thinking lightning bolt is a "great" album, though. you really think that? i mean do you put it on the same level as any of their first 5 albums? they're all great. tough to be much better than great, right?
Ok. You agree with corgan. That's great. I don't. And no, my feelings were not hurt by what he said. I'm not sure why you keep saying that. I simply disagee with his assessment of himself and of pearl jam. In turn, I also disagree with you. I THINK Melon Collie is a great CD. That's it. The other cds they released had a couple good songs a piece. But as a whole, they weren't that good. IMO. I also think that corgan putting himself in the same category as Kurt cobain is absurd. No hurt feelings.
Yes, I THINK LB is a great album. I'm not a huge fan of SBM or FD, but as a whole, I THINK the album is great. It is in MY top 3 or 4 favorites right now. I'm not sure why that's hard for you to wrap your head around. ITS MY OPINION.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
Smashing Pumpkins in the 90s were awesome. "Smashing Pumpkins" in the 21st Century are meh at best.
I personally couldn't care less if Billy Corgan likes PJ's music, and I actually agree with him about the Foos comments. He should just be more graceful when expressing his opinions, given his position. The way he trash talks people is just off-putting and it makes me dislike him as a person. His music is separate from that.... and the music he makes now does nothing for me. But Mellon Collie is one of the best albums of all time IMO.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
edited December 2014
The original title of this thread reflects most of the comments on a certain topic. Changing the title in the middle of the discussion changes the topic and The Porch is about Pearl Jam. If you would like to discuss the Smashing Pumpkins now, you can make a thread or find an existing thread in the Other Music forum. Thanks. The original title is now restored on this thread. Or we can just move this topic to Other Music now if it's changing direction.
Comments
If you're only argument for corgan is that LB isn't a great CD, then there's not much there. As I've said, several times, the smashing pumpkins haven't written a good album in a long time.
I don't care how many great, good, above average or bad records he has made in his life he is still a douche bag and will always be a douche bag! I liked his music in the 90's until I realized that he ultimately sounds like a cat in heat with his whinny voice. You can only take so much of it.
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
He could have made a movie with any band he wanted but chose Pearl Jam.
Yeah, I guess their not very relevant anymore. Maybe they should employ more cowbell?
I think I connect with Pearl Jam more on a lyrical basis, and Eddie is by far the better singer, but the musicianship on Siamese Dream is insanely good.
my thing is his assessment of the foos, while accurate, should've been the same assessment of pj instead of "they don't have the songs." obviously pj has the songs. they just, in my mind, havn't evolved as much as i've liked over the last 10 years or so. that's something a lot of people have been saying for years even before corgan said it.
i'm actually having a hard time wrapping my head around you thinking lightning bolt is a "great" album, though. you really think that? i mean do you put it on the same level as any of their first 5 albums? they're all great. tough to be much better than great, right?
man, are you guys making WAY too much out of him attacking Pearl Jam.
I thought he made some good points.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
Just my opinion, I think they're comfortable with the structure that they've worked out for themselves. That gets us a band with a tightfisted control over output, singles like Ole, and records like Avocado and Back Spacer. (all three of which I like, dont get me wrong...)
I listened to Siamese Dream yesterday front to back for the 1st time in a long time. That album kills. It is the only SP CD that I ever bought.
You will dig both of those too.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
and I agree with the person who called out those who site album sales marking a good band when it suits their needs but then bashing people who say "album sales mean nothing" when it comes to artists they don't like.
Any band that has lasted as long as PJ is going to have their best material behind them. that's just the way it goes. Rolling Stones? Yep. U2? Yep. Green Day? Yep. Foo Fighters? Yep. Pumpkins? Yep.
in rock n roll, you make your best records when you are passionate/angry. as you get older, you tend to lose some or all of that youthful....I'll call it intensity, especially when kids come into your life (I speak from experience as a musician/songwriter and father). I can't claim to know the band's creative process as I don't know any of them personally, and I think anyone claiming to know that the band is playing it safe to get sales is misguided. you don't know their intentions. I can GUESS that I don't believe that to be true. What I have heard them say is they no longer CARE if they get a hit, meaning Ed/the band no longer suppresses releasing radio-friendly songs like they used to. I don't believe that to be catering to the audience. I believe that to be just releasing what you want and if it sticks, fine, but if it doesn't, I don't know that they'd care. But I could be wrong. Again, I don't know them. They promote their albums now like any other band does. it's not overtly commercial. it just seems that way since they used to do NONE. Every musician wants their music to be shared. that's the point of music. but they pulled back in the past because if they did promotion around the time of VS, it would have been even more insane for them than it is was.
no one is hurt by what corgan says. everyone knows he calls out anyone and everyone so he can get noticed in the press. that's just what he does. but I don't see a problem with discussing it; it's made for an interesting topic.
www.headstonesband.com
Smile
Soon Forget
Parting Ways
You Are
Arc
Anything from the weird Vitalogy stuff.
I remember when Who You Are was released as the first single from No Code. People lost their minds.
Here to die.
Scared alive.
and the players gonna play play play play play
Yes, I THINK LB is a great album. I'm not a huge fan of SBM or FD, but as a whole, I THINK the album is great. It is in MY top 3 or 4 favorites right now. I'm not sure why that's hard for you to wrap your head around. ITS MY OPINION.
:-bd
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
I personally couldn't care less if Billy Corgan likes PJ's music, and I actually agree with him about the Foos comments. He should just be more graceful when expressing his opinions, given his position. The way he trash talks people is just off-putting and it makes me dislike him as a person. His music is separate from that.... and the music he makes now does nothing for me. But Mellon Collie is one of the best albums of all time IMO.