Lemme preface this by saying I love Smashing Pumpkins. Yeah, Corgan's a dick, but he's written some great music. I'm waiting for my Christmas holiday to sit down with the new record and give it its full due.
But his apparent obsession with "competition" is weird. And it's not just him referring to Pearl Jam or the Foo Fighters as his competition. I think a lot of us here have managed to listen to the Pumpkins AND Pearl Jam AND the Foo Fighters and not felt as though we were slighting the other ones (hell, I saw the Pumpkins and the Foo Fighters on the same bill once and managed to enjoy them both). Remember the Pumpkins' original breakup in 2000? Corgan claimed he was tired of "fighting the good fight against the Britneys of the world." I'm sure that wasn't the real reason the Pumpkins broke up--Corgan's alluded as much himself--but why would that even enter his frame of reference, even if it was just a throwaway line? If Billy Corgan's the genius he says he is whenever he gets the opportunity, he'd have doubled down and proven it to the rest of the world. Instead he picked up his guitar and went home. It was a total and utter betrayal of everything he's suddenly decided he stands for.
Anyway. Billy Corgan's said dumb things before; he'll say dumb things again; he just said a whole bunch of dumb things. I'll keep listening to his music.
Minneapolis 1998 | Jones Beach I & II, Montreal, and Toronto 2000 | Buffalo, State College, Toronto, Montreal and Hershey 2003 | Boston I & II 2004 | Thunder Bay, Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto 2005 | Toronto I & II 2006 | The Vic and Lollapalooza 2007 | Calgary and Toronto 2009 | PJ20 I & II, Toronto I & II, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton 2011 | London, Chicago, Spokane, Calgary, Vancouver and Seattle 2013 | Ottawa and Toronto I & II 2016 | Chicago I & II 2018 | Ottawa, Hamilton and Toronto 2022
I think the gist of the difference between Vedder and Corgan is like the difference between someone who has had a successful long relationship to someone who has had a lot of failed relationships.
Vedder has accomplished one thing. Corgan has experienced the other. Corgan is probably a little confused by why he's had so much trouble while Vedder has instead had so much success with his band!
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
see that's the thing. i'd love for them to go back to making different sounding albums that may end up alienating and losing more people. that's when they were at their best. problem is, i believe they've tried to do the opposite over the last decade by making more mainstream sounding music to draw in a bigger audience......the results have been mixed. mostly average to good albums (and backspacer) that sound cool live....but ultimately are more inconsistent and less challenging than their best work.
I hear ya Juggler but you may be out of luck. You look at other long running legendary bands such as The Beatles, U2 , The Who, Stones etc. and you will see an album or 2 of experimentation but then it's back to doing what they are most comfortable doing. I guess thats when you keep your ears peeled for the next groundbreaking band to hit?
I don't know man. all the b sides and leaks from the last decade plus tells me they are leaving their best stuff off these records. like someone else said, maybe it's about switching producers or something...
the last two leaks are awesome songs. But put them in context. would they actually fit on Avocado? do we think they are superior just because of some type of hindsight? maybe, maybe not. But the band is no longer fighting putting out the best songs. they are putting out the songs that fit together. as Ed said in the Lost Dogs liner notes about one track that escapes me at the moment, the quote was something like this "suffered from 'one of these is not like the other' syndrome". that's all it boils down to with these guys now. great songs can be left off because they don't fit with the rest.
would Angel have fit on Ten or VS? no, but it's a great song. I also happen to love Happy When I'm Crying. But it doesn't belong on any album, really. Same with Santa Cruz, or Strangest Tribe, or Driftin'.
I think at some point we'll be getting a Stray Cats, but we'll have to wait and see until then.
the whole "it doesn't fit" argument is kind of my point...it doesn't fit these last few records that were geared to more of a main stream sound. the old ed would've taken the time with his hammers and claws (ala what he said in svt) and tried to dig deeper to make those songs work. nowadays they have so much other stuff going on with side projects and stuff. i really hope, for the next album, they find the time to bunker down somewhere and record an album the way they used to......and while they're at it, kick matt out and bring back jack. i really think jack brought out the creative best in these guys.
Vedder has had success as a solo artist too. And he's one of the most respected singer/songwriter/musicians out there. And he's friends with everyone. That'd make anyone jealous.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
In this oversensitive "PC-World," it's actually quite refreshing to see someone express their likes and dislikes without holding back. It's America. He's allowed to have his own opinion and he really didn't say anything that terrible...lol. Relax...
I Know All The Rules But The Rules Do Not Know Me.
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
In this oversensitive "PC-World," it's actually quite refreshing to see someone express their likes and dislikes without holding back. It's America. He's allowed to have his own opinion and he really didn't say anything that terrible...lol. Relax...
As far as Pearl Jam evolving or being experimental, others have touched on it here in the fact that they have been evolving their whole career. Making different sounding albums one after another. That is why they have lost so many listeners from the early days as most people would rather have them remake Ten over and over again (think Nickelback here). I would have left a long time ago. Are every one of there releases going to be the second coming? No but I sure as hell can put Backspacer on and enjoy the hell out of it and L-Bolt gives me Yield like feelings which I love. Peace!
see that's the thing. i'd love for them to go back to making different sounding albums that may end up alienating and losing more people. that's when they were at their best. problem is, i believe they've tried to do the opposite over the last decade by making more mainstream sounding music to draw in a bigger audience......the results have been mixed. mostly average to good albums (and backspacer) that sound cool live....but ultimately are more inconsistent and less challenging than their best work.
I hear ya Juggler but you may be out of luck. You look at other long running legendary bands such as The Beatles, U2 , The Who, Stones etc. and you will see an album or 2 of experimentation but then it's back to doing what they are most comfortable doing. I guess thats when you keep your ears peeled for the next groundbreaking band to hit?
I don't know man. all the b sides and leaks from the last decade plus tells me they are leaving their best stuff off these records. like someone else said, maybe it's about switching producers or something...
the last two leaks are awesome songs. But put them in context. would they actually fit on Avocado? do we think they are superior just because of some type of hindsight? maybe, maybe not. But the band is no longer fighting putting out the best songs. they are putting out the songs that fit together. as Ed said in the Lost Dogs liner notes about one track that escapes me at the moment, the quote was something like this "suffered from 'one of these is not like the other' syndrome". that's all it boils down to with these guys now. great songs can be left off because they don't fit with the rest.
would Angel have fit on Ten or VS? no, but it's a great song. I also happen to love Happy When I'm Crying. But it doesn't belong on any album, really. Same with Santa Cruz, or Strangest Tribe, or Driftin'.
I think at some point we'll be getting a Stray Cats, but we'll have to wait and see until then.
What songs are we talking about here? Cold Confession and that other one? I think Avocado is fucking awesome just the way it is. Besides the fact that you're right and they woukdn't have fit on that album, those leaks aren't as good as anything on that album IMO.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
.....It's America. He's allowed to have his own opinion.....
Completely true, in America you are protected if you'd like to speak up and sound douchey but along those lines, you are NOT protected from others saying you are douchey. In this thread we are just expressing our American right to call him out instead of keeping quiet and being PC.
Vedder has had success as a solo artist too. And he's one of the most respected singer/songwriter/musicians out there. And he's friends with everyone. That'd make anyone jealous.
What do you consider success? Only that he made 2 solo albums and toured? I guess Julian casalancas is now a successful solo act now?? I don't think too many of his music peers really think he's a music virtuoso.. And lets face it the uke album is not very good.
It all about the hair people. Billy is pissed he lost all his and Ed has a thick beautiful plush of hair. Last time i think Billy had hair was in that ice cream truck video. Make sure you catch Billy promoting the new pumpkins album at a county fair near you.
Wait a minute...Randy Marsh is Lorde???? You gotta be fuckin' kidding me...
Las Cruces, NM Pan Am Center September 14, 1995
Albuquerque, NM Tingley Coliseum July 7, 1998
New York City, NY MSG May 20, 2010
Eddie Vedder Solo Albuquerque, NM November 9, 2012
Wrigley Field July 19, 2013
LA Nov. 23: 24, 2013
Denver 10-22-14
It all about the hair people. Billy is pissed he lost all his and Ed has a thick beautiful plush of hair. Last time i think Billy had hair was in that ice cream truck video.
Most of you read way too much into this, or you didn't actually listen to it/all of it.
re pj: he explains his opinions adequately, and says they're opinions and how he's obviously in the minority.
re ev: again, he explains it, and it is from his own personal experience with ev.
But mostly, you're making a mountain out of it. I love pj more than anything, but from corgan makes valid points (that can't be combated with he's "jealous" or a "d-bag").
Most of you read way too much into this, or you didn't actually listen to it/all of it.
re pj: he explains his opinions adequately, and says they're opinions and how he's obviously in the minority.
re ev: again, he explains it, and it is from his own personal experience with ev.
But mostly, you're making a mountain out of it. I love pj more than anything, but from corgan makes valid points (that can't be combated with he's "jealous" or a "d-bag").
Yes, I heard every word of what he said. And just because he made his point adequately, doesn't at all mean that he's not delusional. Or just wrong. What part of "they just don't have the songs" doesn't sound like jealousy?
It all about the hair people. Billy is pissed he lost all his and Ed has a thick beautiful plush of hair. Last time i think Billy had hair was in that ice cream truck video. Make sure you catch Billy promoting the new pumpkins album at a county fair near you.
I guess you haven't seen pics of Eddie taken from above lately? )
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Musics not a competition, as he said pearl jam are competitors to his one man show. There's musicians and there's ' the man' . All bands whatever genre should be together in making the world a better place, as pearl jam admirably do with their charity work. He's gained a lot of publicity by saying these uneducated things and to me seems childish. When becoming disillusioned with the whole record industry as sometimes I do, with the whole illuminati conspiracy myth , people like billy corgan only reinforce my opinion that they probably do exist!! Joking aside, it's summed up by one word....jealousy..............
.....It's America. He's allowed to have his own opinion.....
Completely true, in America you are protected if you'd like to speak up and sound douchey but along those lines, you are NOT protected from others saying you are douchey. In this thread we are just expressing our American right to call him out instead of keeping quiet and being PC.
On Stern, Billy just express his douchey opinion. Here, sounds like people are more whining (and attacking Billy) than expressing their American right...equally douchey...lol. Billy never "attacked" anyone. Just stating my douchey opinion.
Post edited by JV130312 on
I Know All The Rules But The Rules Do Not Know Me.
I'm loving this thread - more to the point, I'm kind of flabbergasted that I actually kind of agree with Billy Corgan after many years of thinking he's a bit of a dick. I don't know if it's the fact that I'm impressed with the new Pumpkins record or what, but I get where he's coming from. That's not to say I 100% agree with him - Pearl Jam is still big because of one person, and that is Eddie Vedder - there's a certain magnetism about him, his vocals, his lyrics, that just draws people in. It doesn't matter what he's singing, he just has IT. BIlly Corgan does not have that particular X factor, in my opinion, he has an insane sense of melody, and his guitar skills are massively underappreciated - but he lacks that raw appeal that overrides everything else.
I think Billy Corgan's point is that Pearl Jam are still relying on straight up melodic rock to sell records, after all these years - Billy holds himself to a higher standard, and therefore he holds other bands of that era to the same standard. It's an interesting paradox because in the same breath he wants to be popular, but he doesn't want to repeat himself. It's a noble cause, but a big part of me just wants him to write some big anthemic songs again - he's more than capable.
Musics not a competition, as he said pearl jam are competitors to his one man show. There's musicians and there's ' the man' . All bands whatever genre should be together in making the world a better place, as pearl jam admirably do with their charity work. He's gained a lot of publicity by saying these uneducated things and to me seems childish. When becoming disillusioned with the whole record industry as sometimes I do, with the whole illuminati conspiracy myth , people like billy corgan only reinforce my opinion that they probably do exist!! Joking aside, it's summed up by one word....jealousy..............
He was ASKED his opinion, he wasn't fishing for publicity, it just so happened that Howard Stern asked those questions, and he answered honestly.
I don't think he's jealous, so much as bemused - like he could have easily carried on with the same type of music and remained popular, but he chose to try other things. I'm not defending him in terms of his musical output, which has largely been shit for the last ten years or so......but I guess at least he tried.
I remember an interview after the Pumpkins greatest hits came out, and people thought Billy had lost his ability to write classic Pumpkins-sounding songs, and they included the song Untitled on the record - it was vintage Pumkins, and I get the impression he could always revert back to that kind of sound if he wanted..
Howard has an agenda FOR SURE. Have u ever heard his rants on Palestine and Gaza. He is hawkish to an extreme in defense of Israel. In stark contrast to some other guys recent comments at a show in England. The media is waiting for a slip up and baiting works wonders. see helen thomas
I don't think Howard has an agenda, he was just setting Billy up to say something that might get some press.
I respectfully disagree. He's always prodding them when he gets a chance. He tried bating Uncle Neil into an Eddie discussion ... but Neil glossed over the comment. He has a "hard on" for Eddie IMO. Can't understand the non-interest.
To think pearl jam hasn't evolved is silly. LB doesn't sound like Binaural or Ten. They are a rock and roll band. Not a punk or pop act. They write good music that 1) satisfies them and 2) doesn't alienate their fan base. So in that respect, Billys opinion is wrong. What more could you ask for?
Secondly, the main issue I had with corgans comments are that he puts himself in the same category with Kurt cobain. That's a joke. Sorry, but the smashing pumpkins had nothing to do with the "grunge" explosion of the early 90's. If they had never written a song, the 90's scene still would have survived. Melon Collie definitely added to the scene, but it wasn't what kept it going.
Third, for those of you that think this is a silly debate or that it should have only lasted 2 pages, nobody is forcing you to read it. You are adding nothing to the debate by saying as such.
Comments
But his apparent obsession with "competition" is weird. And it's not just him referring to Pearl Jam or the Foo Fighters as his competition. I think a lot of us here have managed to listen to the Pumpkins AND Pearl Jam AND the Foo Fighters and not felt as though we were slighting the other ones (hell, I saw the Pumpkins and the Foo Fighters on the same bill once and managed to enjoy them both). Remember the Pumpkins' original breakup in 2000? Corgan claimed he was tired of "fighting the good fight against the Britneys of the world." I'm sure that wasn't the real reason the Pumpkins broke up--Corgan's alluded as much himself--but why would that even enter his frame of reference, even if it was just a throwaway line? If Billy Corgan's the genius he says he is whenever he gets the opportunity, he'd have doubled down and proven it to the rest of the world. Instead he picked up his guitar and went home. It was a total and utter betrayal of everything he's suddenly decided he stands for.
Anyway. Billy Corgan's said dumb things before; he'll say dumb things again; he just said a whole bunch of dumb things. I'll keep listening to his music.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
Vedder has accomplished one thing. Corgan has experienced the other. Corgan is probably a little confused by why he's had so much trouble while Vedder has instead had so much success with his band!
(only kidding about the matt thing....kind of)
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
I think Avocado is fucking awesome just the way it is. Besides the fact that you're right and they woukdn't have fit on that album, those leaks aren't as good as anything on that album IMO.
Albuquerque, NM Tingley Coliseum July 7, 1998
New York City, NY MSG May 20, 2010
Eddie Vedder Solo Albuquerque, NM November 9, 2012
Wrigley Field July 19, 2013
LA Nov. 23: 24, 2013
Denver 10-22-14
re pj: he explains his opinions adequately, and says they're opinions and how he's obviously in the minority.
re ev: again, he explains it, and it is from his own personal experience with ev.
But mostly, you're making a mountain out of it. I love pj more than anything, but from corgan makes valid points (that can't be combated with he's "jealous" or a "d-bag").
I can't believe this thread is going, so here's my contribution: \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
(I really miss the popcorn smiley)
I'm loving this thread - more to the point, I'm kind of flabbergasted that I actually kind of agree with Billy Corgan after many years of thinking he's a bit of a dick. I don't know if it's the fact that I'm impressed with the new Pumpkins record or what, but I get where he's coming from. That's not to say I 100% agree with him - Pearl Jam is still big because of one person, and that is Eddie Vedder - there's a certain magnetism about him, his vocals, his lyrics, that just draws people in. It doesn't matter what he's singing, he just has IT. BIlly Corgan does not have that particular X factor, in my opinion, he has an insane sense of melody, and his guitar skills are massively underappreciated - but he lacks that raw appeal that overrides everything else.
I think Billy Corgan's point is that Pearl Jam are still relying on straight up melodic rock to sell records, after all these years - Billy holds himself to a higher standard, and therefore he holds other bands of that era to the same standard. It's an interesting paradox because in the same breath he wants to be popular, but he doesn't want to repeat himself. It's a noble cause, but a big part of me just wants him to write some big anthemic songs again - he's more than capable.
I don't think he's jealous, so much as bemused - like he could have easily carried on with the same type of music and remained popular, but he chose to try other things. I'm not defending him in terms of his musical output, which has largely been shit for the last ten years or so......but I guess at least he tried.
I remember an interview after the Pumpkins greatest hits came out, and people thought Billy had lost his ability to write classic Pumpkins-sounding songs, and they included the song Untitled on the record - it was vintage Pumkins, and I get the impression he could always revert back to that kind of sound if he wanted..
Secondly, the main issue I had with corgans comments are that he puts himself in the same category with Kurt cobain. That's a joke. Sorry, but the smashing pumpkins had nothing to do with the "grunge" explosion of the early 90's. If they had never written a song, the 90's scene still would have survived. Melon Collie definitely added to the scene, but it wasn't what kept it going.
Third, for those of you that think this is a silly debate or that it should have only lasted 2 pages, nobody is forcing you to read it. You are adding nothing to the debate by saying as such.