Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies.
Just to be clear, are you saying that innocent westerners have zero influence of their own governments' policies? Does that mean you are straight up saying westerners do not live in democracies?
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
It's extremely telling to me that your arguments are so often based off of anecdotal evidence. "I ran into such-and-such person, and was told this, therefore it must be true." It's interesting that you are willing to give a voice to those Muslims you met and supposedly got to agree with your line of thinking, but you refuse to actually allow Muslims in the rest of the world their chance to speak to themselves -- and before you dispute this claim, I'll point to where you casually alleged that 25% (!) of Muslims in the Middle East are "radicals" without actually backing up the claim. When I refuted the link you posted, and pointed out that the number you cited was nowhere to even be found there, you typically ignored it.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Lol, whatever man. I was indeed just telling a story about six Muslims I have known and talked to. I simply thought it was interesting. If you don't want to believe me and call me a liar I really don't give a shit. FYI, not every post has to look like a fucking essay. I thought we were having a conversation here. If you have a problem with someone talking about what they have personally dicussed with some other Muslims - in conversations where no one was trying to out do the other with how much they may or may not know about something, but just talking like normal people - then you have a problem, not me. How in the fuck can you claim that I am decontextualising something that I did not even address?? How can you say that I'm not giving middle eastern Muslim enough credit because I told you want some Muslim I know said?? Chill the fuck out. You seem to be trying to argue with me just for the sake of arguing at this point, or saying that if I don't say everything in the way that you want me to say it and don't include every point that you want people to say then that they are idiots or don't have other knowledge in their heads just because they didn't mention it. Gimme a fucking break. I mean, "admissible as evidence"???? What in the fuck are you talking about???? Where exactly do you think you are??
I wasn't even talking about the West's role, so have no clue why you brought it up. Just because that didn't happen to be the subject of my post doesn't mean I am not aware, concerned, knowledgeable about it. It just means that it's not the focus of my post. When I say that Muslims need to do much more to combat extremism that doesn't automatically mean that no one else needs to do something. Do I seriously even need to say that???
You're taking this personal, which is a pathetic defense. The point is that you are making claims (25% of Muslims are extremists") and presenting arguments against an entire other people ("Muslims need to do more") and you need to back them up. When you are asked to, you present anecdotal evidence, and a poll that doesn't even actually say what you claim it does.
It seems to me you are backing out of this conversation. That's fine.
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Post edited by lukin2006 on
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies.
Just to be clear, are you saying that innocent westerners have zero influence of their own governments' policies? Does that mean you are straight up saying westerners do not live in democracies?
Bingo! I do not consider my country Canada a great example of democracy. I do not consider voting every 4 years democracy and then the elected officials do whatever they want until it's election time.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
It's extremely telling to me that your arguments are so often based off of anecdotal evidence. "I ran into such-and-such person, and was told this, therefore it must be true." It's interesting that you are willing to give a voice to those Muslims you met and supposedly got to agree with your line of thinking, but you refuse to actually allow Muslims in the rest of the world their chance to speak to themselves -- and before you dispute this claim, I'll point to where you casually alleged that 25% (!) of Muslims in the Middle East are "radicals" without actually backing up the claim. When I refuted the link you posted, and pointed out that the number you cited was nowhere to even be found there, you typically ignored it.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Lol, whatever man. I was indeed just telling a story about six Muslims I have known and talked to. I simply thought it was interesting. If you don't want to believe me and call me a liar I really don't give a shit. FYI, not every post has to look like a fucking essay. I thought we were having a conversation here. If you have a problem with someone talking about what they have personally dicussed with some other Muslims - in conversations where no one was trying to out do the other with how much they may or may not know about something, but just talking like normal people - then you have a problem, not me. How in the fuck can you claim that I am decontextualising something that I did not even address?? How can you say that I'm not giving middle eastern Muslim enough credit because I told you want some Muslim I know said?? Chill the fuck out. You seem to be trying to argue with me just for the sake of arguing at this point, or saying that if I don't say everything in the way that you want me to say it and don't include every point that you want people to say then that they are idiots or don't have other knowledge in their heads just because they didn't mention it. Gimme a fucking break. I mean, "admissible as evidence"???? What in the fuck are you talking about???? Where exactly do you think you are??
I wasn't even talking about the West's role, so have no clue why you brought it up. Just because that didn't happen to be the subject of my post doesn't mean I am not aware, concerned, knowledgeable about it. It just means that it's not the focus of my post. When I say that Muslims need to do much more to combat extremism that doesn't automatically mean that no one else needs to do something. Do I seriously even need to say that???
You're taking this personal, which is a pathetic defense. The point is that you are making claims (25% of Muslims are extremists") and presenting arguments against an entire other people ("Muslims need to do more") and you need to back them up. When you are asked to, you present anecdotal evidence, and a poll that doesn't even actually say what you claim it does.
It seems to me you are backing out of this conversation. That's fine.
I seem to be backing out of the conversation? How so?
You are the one who made it personal, so don't try throwing that back at me and calling it pathetic. That's just playing dirty. When you make accusations towards someone like you did, that's making it personal.
How do you expect me to back up the statement that Muslims need to do more to combat extremism? It's an opinion based on a multitude of things. It would take me hours to do that. Some people do seem to have the time for that, but I don't. If you are unhappy that not everyone spends all their free time compiling evidence for a case on a rock band's online forum, that is too bad for you I guess. Sorry to underwhelm you with my conversational and casual method, lol. If you have no respect for me, you can always ignore me.
Are you saying that the Muslim world in general is doing everything it possibly can to combat extremism?? If so, sure, provide your proof. Show me how much you know.
That 25% thing was a rough estimate going from all the numbers I saw in the article I posted along with other shit I've read but can't remember where.
Anecdotal evidence? I was just talking about some conversations I had. I wasn't testifying In court or writing an academic paper, lol. Anyway, that six moderate Muslims from various backgrounds all agreed that Muslims do need to do more to combat extremism tells me that some Muslims think that their communities need to do more to combat extremism. Unless you're suggesting that I conjured up some Muslims and am lying about having that conversation with them, I don't see what you are arguing with. I would have thought that a normal response would be something like, "interesting that they all consider that a factor that's lacking in all this. Did they say anything about what they thought could be done about that?"
And my answer would have been, "unfortunately, they all pretty much seem as stumped as everyone else, and no, they did not go on a rant about what responsibility the west had in creating extremism."
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies.
Just to be clear, are you saying that innocent westerners have zero influence of their own governments' policies? Does that mean you are straight up saying westerners do not live in democracies?
Bingo! I do not consider my country Canada a great example of democracy. I do not consider voting every 4 years democracy and then the elected officials do whatever they want until it's election time.
Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies.
Just to be clear, are you saying that innocent westerners have zero influence of their own governments' policies? Does that mean you are straight up saying westerners do not live in democracies?
Bingo! I do not consider my country Canada a great example of democracy. I do not consider voting every 4 years democracy and then the elected officials do whatever they want until it's election time.
Yeah, no kidding. Real life "democracy" is about as democratic as real life "communism" is based on Marxist principles.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Why ... our resources here in Canada has contributed to a better life for many ... I know many environmentalist don't like it ... but a great many Canadians have moved to Alberta and are working in the oil fields ... and the royalties that the governments get from oil contributes to social programs. Are you saying none of this exist in the middle eastern oil fields, the governments get no royalties, get none of the oil wealth ... or does the governments or princes or dictators or whatever ruler is in place and keeps all the monies for themselves and offers a pittance to the population? If this is the case, are you saying that western leaders are instructing middle eastern leaders to hoard the oil wealth for themselves? Screw the people ...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies.
Just to be clear, are you saying that innocent westerners have zero influence of their own governments' policies? Does that mean you are straight up saying westerners do not live in democracies?
Bingo! I do not consider my country Canada a great example of democracy. I do not consider voting every 4 years democracy and then the elected officials do whatever they want until it's election time.
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Anyone ever noticed that there is no such thing as a thriving nation when it also restricts the role of women in society?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I really don't get it. Someone makes a claim. I ask them to back it up. Then I'm being unreasonable because I'm asking them to testify in court or write an academic paper?
Should we all just make ridiculous claims and not challenge each other to back them up on this website? The moment someone is challenged, it's seen as if you're targeting that person and trying to verbally assault them.
I mean, christ, if you wanna say 25% of Muslims are extremist, then expect to be challenged.
And for the record, PJ_Soul, if you read my post closely then you'd see that my issue isn't even with the actual premise that Muslims need to do more. It's the fact that you as a Westerner are identifying that as if you are saying, "Hey you people. You have some problems and you need to fix it" as if western governments are not the (not "a" but "the") reason behind said problems. There's my issue.
To go on a tangent: It's like when people sit here and say we need to criticize Hamas. Of course not everything Hamas does is defensible. OF COURSE. But the point is that they are just a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be fixed. Once Israel's occupation, or once Western involvement in the Middle East, is dealt with, THEN we can try to rebuild, and yes that involves so much, such as better education, raising the bar for social standards, and so on. But when you have Western-backed autocrats running the most repressive regimes that subjugate their populations to a level beyond that which you can comprehend, it is condescending for you to suggest that they have to do more. That's my point.
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Anyone ever noticed that there is no such thing as a thriving nation when it also restricts the role of women in society?
I agree ... woman are incredible people and we should want them contributing to every aspect of our society if the choose.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
It's like when White Americans tell African Americans, "hey, why don't you do more to improve your community?" while disregarding the long history of economic and social disenfranchisement of black Americans. What White Americans should be saying to African Americans is, "My government is responsible for so many awful policies against you. What can I do?" Let African Americans have the conversation among themselves about what they should do for their community. And then you can have the conversation with them about what you can do for them, and what you all can do together to create a better overall society.
Ok. I've gone on a couple of tangents so I'll stop now. A quick note, I'm not saying "you" here to mean anyone here specifically. I'm speaking generally.
I really don't get it. Someone makes a claim. I ask them to back it up. Then I'm being unreasonable because I'm asking them to testify in court or write an academic paper?
Should we all just make ridiculous claims and not challenge each other to back them up on this website? The moment someone is challenged, it's seen as if you're targeting that person and trying to verbally assault them.
I mean, christ, if you wanna say 25% of Muslims are extremist, then expect to be challenged.
And for the record, PJ_Soul, if you read my post closely then you'd see that my issue isn't even with the actual premise that Muslims need to do more. It's the fact that you as a Westerner are identifying that as if you are saying, "Hey you people. You have some problems and you need to fix it" as if western governments are not the (not "a" but "the") reason behind said problems. There's my issue.
To go on a tangent: It's like when people sit here and say we need to criticize Hamas. Of course not everything Hamas does is defensible. OF COURSE. But the point is that they are just a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be fixed. Once Israel's occupation, or once Western involvement in the Middle East, is dealt with, THEN we can try to rebuild, and yes that involves so much, such as better education, raising the bar for social standards, and so on. But when you have Western-backed autocrats running the most repressive regimes that subjugate their populations to a level beyond that which you can comprehend, it is condescending for you to suggest that they have to do more. That's my point.
What you don't seem to get is that just because I don't happen to be talking about the west's role, it doesn't mean I think it doesn't have one. But you think that the west is 100% responsible for Islamic extremism? Is that what you're saying, or am I misreading that?
Condescending of me to think that Muslims around the world can affect positive change in their own communities??? I disagree strongly with your conclusion here. In fact, what you're saying sounds more condescending. You are calling Muslims in those troubled nations powerless. I posted the article from which I got that rough number (which was in response to someone who said only 0.0000000001% of Muslims are extremist, which is qualified as those who have/support extremist views. A very ridiculous number that you didn't take issue with for some reason), so if that doesn't do it for you, okay, you don't agree with my conclusion, and move on. Don't keep bugging me about something I already responded to.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
So you are saying white americans don't try and help out black communities? What about Detroit? Detroit is a majority black community ... Mike Illitch, Dan Gilbert, the Fords, GM moving their headquarters into the city, Dan Gilbert moving and expanding his business into the city buying abandoned buildings, this is just a small example of white people trying to save a city ... not to mention other white people like kid rock who constantly promoting the city.
Now check out these name from Detroit's recent past Kwame Kilpatrick and Coleman Young ... and what did they do?
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
It's like when White Americans tell African Americans, "hey, why don't you do more to improve your community?" while disregarding the long history of economic and social disenfranchisement of black Americans. What White Americans should be saying to African Americans is, "My government is responsible for so many awful policies against you. What can I do?" Let African Americans have the conversation among themselves about what they should do for their community. And then you can have the conversation with them about what you can do for them, and what you all can do together to create a better overall society.
Ok. I've gone on a couple of tangents so I'll stop now. A quick note, I'm not saying "you" here to mean anyone here specifically. I'm speaking generally.
I agree that disregarding the history and hardship of any group is a big mistake, and I would never suggest such a thing. I find it incredibly offensive when people suggest that people struggling under the conditions created by injustice in recent history should just suck it up and anything bad in their community is all their fault at this point. Same goes for Aboriginals. But it isn't all about what others can do to help them. They are very capable of doing a whole shit load of things to help themselves, which is exactly what they do.
But anyway, I actually have nothing to do with the actions of the west in the middle east. The Muslims I spoke about this with did not at all mind me talking about this with them, and it is certainly a topic that they had thought about before and discussed with others. They had quite clear opinions on fhere matter. I am frankly confused by your reaction. Talking about this cannot possibly be a negative... it's a conversation about positive change. It doesn't matter where the people talking about it are from. You seem to ne saying that unless the west plays a role in fixing the problems in their own communities quelling extremism is not even going to be an option. In other words, they are powerless alone. I think you're just being too sensitive on the point of me having this conversation with them (I know you meant a bigger "you", but still, it does apply to my own conversations).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Anyone ever noticed that there is no such thing as a thriving nation when it also restricts the role of women in society?
I agree ... woman are incredible people and we should want them contributing to every aspect of our society if the choose.
Well, sure, women are great, lol. But the point is that any society in this day and age that basically renders over 50% of its population useless when it comes to education, the economy, and the government, and blocks most feminine influence from those things, there is no way for that society to be anything other than a complete fucking mess.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
thank you, pjsoul... it is so fucking disgusting how women are treated. in my eyes men do not hold women down, the ones that do are scared little boys, they're not men. this goes for worldwide idiots abusing women with their bullshit iron fists. fucking losers
Well, sure, women are great, lol. But the point is that any society in this day and age that basically renders over 50% of its population useless when it comes to education, the economy, and the government, and blocks most feminine influence from those things, there is no way for that society to be anything other than a complete fucking mess.
Yup. Given the maternal side of my heritage, my first thoughts went to Iran.
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I agree I was ... my forefathers who came to this country contributed immensely to this land, Life was not always easy in Canada. Many Canadian forefathers worked long hours providing for their family, many still work long hours in the diamond mines of the north or in the Alberta oil fields ... many leave their communities and travel thousand of kilometres for this type of work because their is very little work in their communities ... Newfoundlanders are great examples of people who travel great distances for a better life and thats within their own country.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Really asking that question about oil with a straight face? I can't nor won't even answer that question for you. Do some research on the west and oil in the Mid East. It'll help you out for when you post about it.
Anyone ever noticed that there is no such thing as a thriving nation when it also restricts the role of women in society?
I agree ... woman are incredible people and we should want them contributing to every aspect of our society if the choose.
Well, sure, women are great, lol. But the point is that any society in this day and age that basically renders over 50% of its population useless when it comes to education, the economy, and the government, and blocks most feminine influence from those things, there is no way for that society to be anything other than a complete fucking mess.
I agree ...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.
Am I in your house? Is this your message board or something? Am I trespassing? I was commenting on how the "discussions" work in these threads and you just proved my point. It is all about the couple of folks on this board who hate the US and Israel, and will not let any discussion happen that isn't critical of those two countries, no matter how much responsibility for sick acts in the Middle East have to do with the people committing them. No point of view is allowed in these threads unless it meets yours and a couple others' approval, as you've proved in discussions with PJSoul the last couple of pages.
Oh, and I wanted to lead into my bit on Tang. You can't just mention Tang from the beginning. You gotta work up to it.
Carry on. Christians murdered for being Christians in Iraq, and it is all the US's fault. Not the actual murderers themselves.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.
Am I in your house? Is this your message board or something? Am I trespassing? I was commenting on how the "discussions" work in these threads and you just proved my point. It is all about the couple of folks on this board who hate the US and Israel, and will not let any discussion happen that isn't critical of those two countries, no matter how much responsibility for sick acts in the Middle East have to do with the people committing them. No point of view is allowed in these threads unless it meets yours and a couple others' approval, as you've proved in discussions with PJSoul the last couple of pages.
Oh, and I wanted to lead into my bit on Tang. You can't just mention Tang from the beginning. You gotta work up to it.
Carry on. Christians murdered for being Christians in Iraq, and it is all the US's fault. Not the actual murderers themselves.
Kind of like Muslims being killed by the US military for being Muslims in Iraq? No? 2003? Or was that for oil? Or liberation? Or both?
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.
It is all about the couple of folks on this board who hate the US and Israel,
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.
It is all about the couple of folks on this board who hate the US and Israel,
Who are these people?
Was wondering that myself.
These debates sure take some interesting turns sometimes.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
Many people in those countries 'thrive'. And a lot more people in those countries would thrive if their resources and wealth weren't all siphoned off to the West. And we know what happens when any of these countries have tried to disentangle themselves from the grip of Western interests, right? Suddenly their leader is the new Hitler and they need to be bombed back to the stone-age.
I seem to be backing out of the conversation? How so?
You are the one who made it personal, so don't try throwing that back at me and calling it pathetic. That's just playing dirty. When you make accusations towards someone like you did, that's making it personal.
How do you expect me to back up the statement that Muslims need to do more to combat extremism? It's an opinion based on a multitude of things. It would take me hours to do that. Some people do seem to have the time for that, but I don't. If you are unhappy that not everyone spends all their free time compiling evidence for a case on a rock band's online forum, that is too bad for you I guess. Sorry to underwhelm you with my conversational and casual method, lol. If you have no respect for me, you can always ignore me.
Are you saying that the Muslim world in general is doing everything it possibly can to combat extremism?? If so, sure, provide your proof. Show me how much you know.
That 25% thing was a rough estimate going from all the numbers I saw in the article I posted along with other shit I've read but can't remember where.
Anecdotal evidence? I was just talking about some conversations I had. I wasn't testifying In court or writing an academic paper, lol. Anyway, that six moderate Muslims from various backgrounds all agreed that Muslims do need to do more to combat extremism tells me that some Muslims think that their communities need to do more to combat extremism. Unless you're suggesting that I conjured up some Muslims and am lying about having that conversation with them, I don't see what you are arguing with. I would have thought that a normal response would be something like, "interesting that they all consider that a factor that's lacking in all this. Did they say anything about what they thought could be done about that?"
And my answer would have been, "unfortunately, they all pretty much seem as stumped as everyone else, and no, they did not go on a rant about what responsibility the west had in creating extremism."
You managed to get two 'Lol's in there. Nice job. Lol!
No point of view is allowed in these threads unless it meets yours and a couple others' approval, as you've proved in discussions with PJSoul the last couple of pages.
Point of view? We're not philosophizing or fantasizing here, we're discussing political realities. Political realities based on the factual record. Somebody claiming that 130,000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria is not a fact, it's a fantasy. And someone claiming that 25% of Muslims are extremists is also a fantasy. You wanna indulge in fantasies? Then maybe the AMT is not the place for you.
Comments
It seems to me you are backing out of this conversation. That's fine.
So my question is with all the oil wealth in the middle east how come the middle hasn't been able to build thriving countries?
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
You are the one who made it personal, so don't try throwing that back at me and calling it pathetic. That's just playing dirty. When you make accusations towards someone like you did, that's making it personal.
How do you expect me to back up the statement that Muslims need to do more to combat extremism? It's an opinion based on a multitude of things. It would take me hours to do that. Some people do seem to have the time for that, but I don't. If you are unhappy that not everyone spends all their free time compiling evidence for a case on a rock band's online forum, that is too bad for you I guess. Sorry to underwhelm you with my conversational and casual method, lol. If you have no respect for me, you can always ignore me.
Are you saying that the Muslim world in general is doing everything it possibly can to combat extremism?? If so, sure, provide your proof. Show me how much you know.
That 25% thing was a rough estimate going from all the numbers I saw in the article I posted along with other shit I've read but can't remember where.
Anecdotal evidence? I was just talking about some conversations I had. I wasn't testifying In court or writing an academic paper, lol. Anyway, that six moderate Muslims from various backgrounds all agreed that Muslims do need to do more to combat extremism tells me that some Muslims think that their communities need to do more to combat extremism. Unless you're suggesting that I conjured up some Muslims and am lying about having that conversation with them, I don't see what you are arguing with. I would have thought that a normal response would be something like, "interesting that they all consider that a factor that's lacking in all this. Did they say anything about what they thought could be done about that?"
And my answer would have been, "unfortunately, they all pretty much seem as stumped as everyone else, and no, they did not go on a rant about what responsibility the west had in creating extremism."
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Should we all just make ridiculous claims and not challenge each other to back them up on this website? The moment someone is challenged, it's seen as if you're targeting that person and trying to verbally assault them.
I mean, christ, if you wanna say 25% of Muslims are extremist, then expect to be challenged.
And for the record, PJ_Soul, if you read my post closely then you'd see that my issue isn't even with the actual premise that Muslims need to do more. It's the fact that you as a Westerner are identifying that as if you are saying, "Hey you people. You have some problems and you need to fix it" as if western governments are not the (not "a" but "the") reason behind said problems. There's my issue.
To go on a tangent: It's like when people sit here and say we need to criticize Hamas. Of course not everything Hamas does is defensible. OF COURSE. But the point is that they are just a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be fixed. Once Israel's occupation, or once Western involvement in the Middle East, is dealt with, THEN we can try to rebuild, and yes that involves so much, such as better education, raising the bar for social standards, and so on. But when you have Western-backed autocrats running the most repressive regimes that subjugate their populations to a level beyond that which you can comprehend, it is condescending for you to suggest that they have to do more. That's my point.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Ok. I've gone on a couple of tangents so I'll stop now. A quick note, I'm not saying "you" here to mean anyone here specifically. I'm speaking generally.
Condescending of me to think that Muslims around the world can affect positive change in their own communities??? I disagree strongly with your conclusion here. In fact, what you're saying sounds more condescending. You are calling Muslims in those troubled nations powerless.
I posted the article from which I got that rough number (which was in response to someone who said only 0.0000000001% of Muslims are extremist, which is qualified as those who have/support extremist views. A very ridiculous number that you didn't take issue with for some reason), so if that doesn't do it for you, okay, you don't agree with my conclusion, and move on. Don't keep bugging me about something I already responded to.
Now check out these name from Detroit's recent past Kwame Kilpatrick and Coleman Young ... and what did they do?
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
But anyway, I actually have nothing to do with the actions of the west in the middle east. The Muslims I spoke about this with did not at all mind me talking about this with them, and it is certainly a topic that they had thought about before and discussed with others. They had quite clear opinions on fhere matter. I am frankly confused by your reaction. Talking about this cannot possibly be a negative... it's a conversation about positive change. It doesn't matter where the people talking about it are from. You seem to ne saying that unless the west plays a role in fixing the problems in their own communities quelling extremism is not even going to be an option. In other words, they are powerless alone. I think you're just being too sensitive on the point of me having this conversation with them (I know you meant a bigger "you", but still, it does apply to my own conversations).
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Oh, and I wanted to lead into my bit on Tang. You can't just mention Tang from the beginning. You gotta work up to it.
Carry on. Christians murdered for being Christians in Iraq, and it is all the US's fault. Not the actual murderers themselves.
These debates sure take some interesting turns sometimes.
Point of view? We're not philosophizing or fantasizing here, we're discussing political realities. Political realities based on the factual record. Somebody claiming that 130,000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria is not a fact, it's a fantasy. And someone claiming that 25% of Muslims are extremists is also a fantasy.
You wanna indulge in fantasies? Then maybe the AMT is not the place for you. Seven hijackers from Saudi Arabia attacking the U.S on 9/11, and it's Afghanistan's and Iraq's fault, not the actual murderers themselves.
See what I did there?