Former New York state Chief Judge Sol Wachtler famously remarked that a prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich." The data suggests he was barely exaggerating: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them.
The system doesn't work.
Why the use of federal states for a state case
prob bec state data is unavailable. when i read the same stat elsewhere i too thought it was a bit misleading.
Whether Wilson was right or wrong, there is no excuse for there not to be an indictment and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly does not understand the American justice system.
I have a clear understanding of the criminal justice system. So please, enlighten me on why there had to be an indictment.
The prosecutor clearly had no interest in getting an indictment. This was the most predictable thing from the beginning. The DA clearly didn't want this ongoing case in their community. No one can say there was not enough doubt in what happened to have this be heard by a court.
Whether Wilson was right or wrong, there is no excuse for there not to be an indictment and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly does not understand the American justice system.
??? Please explain what you mean. The "excuse" is that there was insufficient evidence to take this to trial. The grand jury had a lower bar of preponderance of evidence, and the evidence couldn't even meet that low standard, let alone the beyond a shadow of a doubt requirement for the criminal trial. So since I clearly don't understand the American justice system as well as you do, please explain what you mean. Do you mean that the grand jury should have automatically handed down an indictment regardless of lack of evidence, so that it could go to trial? What would have been the point in that?
Oh bullshit. Every prosecutor can get an indictment on anything they want. They didn't want this trial in their community. Period.
The DA doesn't even need a fucking grand jury
Do you know when grand juries don't indict people? When witnesses are being uncooperative likely due to threats
Self defense is an affirmative defense at trial, it is NOT a defense to not being charged with the crime
Ha, ok. So in a post higher up this page you showed federal stats for US grand jury numbers (ie grand juries would indict a ham sandwich), to which you commented that the system is broken, presumably because they just pass these things through. Then when a grand jury actually does its job and examines evidence, weighs it, and makes what appears to be a sound decision you don't like it because the grand jury didn't act as they usually do (ie the way in which the system is broken). Are you being inconsistent?
Ha, no. The point is the prosecutor didn't want an indictment. If he wanted it, he would have had it. That was the point of the entire thing. Which if a prosecutor uses a grand jury as his scapegoat for not bringing charges when the police kill an unarmed minority, then yes I would fairly easily come to the conclusion that the system is broken.
Brown supporters are now just grasping at straws. The eyewitness accounts were unreliable. Many of their stories changed throughout the process. Surprisingly, the credible witnesses were corroborating Wilson's story of events. Again, I'll ask why should Wilson be indicted and charged with murder? Michael Brown assaulted Wilson and tried to take his gun. Wilson's response to that was lawful and consistent with his training. The evidence proves that. Please explain why he is a murderer. Because since the facts have been released, all I'm hearing is how the system is flawed. Sorry, but that's not enough to convince me why he should be charged with anything.
Former New York state Chief Judge Sol Wachtler famously remarked that a prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich." The data suggests he was barely exaggerating: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them.
CNN had the blood spatter chart last night. It exists.
yeah...I just posted it above
Thanks.
ok i know we dont like answering questions and maybe we dont like the asker. but from the nice diagram from nyt. (since we cannot identify the blood as splatter from gunshot, drops from body or blood-run) how about these questions i have, why are casing shown beyond browns body? is it common for a casing to travel 25-35 feet? it looks like 6 of the 10 casing are laying past brown. these are just questions from a non gun expert.
I think in his testimony the police officer references shooting and then backing up as Brown kept coming forward
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Well another solid point, because how often do states use a grand jury to bring charges?
Which all brings me back to my original point. The goal of the prosecutor in convening the grand jury was to not bring charges
Makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to bring charges if there was no evidence. What a waste of time, resources and $$$. It would have resulted in a finding of not guilty, and we'd be right where we are today, except that we'd endure a year or two of the trial process.
Well another solid point, because how often do states use a grand jury to bring charges?
Which all brings me back to my original point. The goal of the prosecutor in convening the grand jury was to not bring charges
Makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to bring charges if there was no evidence. What a waste of time, resources and $$$. It would have resulted in a finding of not guilty, and we'd be right where we are today, except that we'd endure a year or two of the trial process.
CNN had the blood spatter chart last night. It exists.
yeah...I just posted it above
Thanks.
ok i know we dont like answering questions and maybe we dont like the asker. but from the nice diagram from nyt. (since we cannot identify the blood as splatter from gunshot, drops from body or blood-run) how about these questions i have, why are casing shown beyond browns body? is it common for a casing to travel 25-35 feet? it looks like 6 of the 10 casing are laying past brown. these are just questions from a non gun expert.
This would support that Brown moved back toward the shooter. He was either "charging" or he was stumbling back trying to avoid more gunshots....depending on who you believe.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
CNN just showed Brown's stepfather on video last night standing next to his mom telling protestors repeatedly to "burn this MF'er down" and to "burn this bitch down" shortly after the no indictment announcement.
If you want to see true ignorance, go to vine and search #fergusonriots. Unbelievable how people think on both sides. I sometimes wish smartphones were never invented.
Well another solid point, because how often do states use a grand jury to bring charges?
Which all brings me back to my original point. The goal of the prosecutor in convening the grand jury was to not bring charges
Makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to bring charges if there was no evidence. What a waste of time, resources and $$$. It would have resulted in a finding of not guilty, and we'd be right where we are today, except that we'd endure a year or two of the trial process.
Yes. Lots of cases never see a trial. Do you think trials without evidence should become the new standard? Or maybe convictions without evidence? I'm not sure what you're proposing. Sounds like you're disappointed that Wilson wasn't indicted even with insufficient evidence. To what end?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
strictly commentary... after reading both wilsons interview and his testimony (in there entirety from the evidence dump) i think he was hoping that browns blood would have produced pcp or the sort. his descriptions of brown and browns actions are reminiscent of someone describing a zombie attack. again strictly commentary
Brown supporters are now just grasping at straws. The eyewitness accounts were unreliable. Many of their stories changed throughout the process. Surprisingly, the credible witnesses were corroborating Wilson's story of events. Again, I'll ask why should Wilson be indicted and charged with murder? Michael Brown assaulted Wilson and tried to take his gun. Wilson's response to that was lawful and consistent with his training. The evidence proves that. Please explain why he is a murderer. Because since the facts have been released, all I'm hearing is how the system is flawed. Sorry, but that's not enough to convince me why he should be charged with anything.
I couldn't said it better.Im not sure why some are still making excuses.
The Ferguson market and liquor store is being actively looted right now. Unbelievable.
CNN cameras are showing 40-50 people running in empty handed and running out arms full of liquor and beer. I'm sure thats exactly how they the peaceful protestkrs wanted to get their point across. It would be nice if the cops got that footage and arrested everyone they could recognize stealing from that store.
That's why the cops did for the Vancouver riot and hundreds of people got reported and convicted (many turned themselves in once the cops posted their picture on a website dedicated to identifying looters from that riot). It worked great! All the cameras and media everywhere these days do have their value. Hopefully the Ferguson police do the same as the VPD did. Nothing more satisfying that seeing looters getting busted because they didn't even think about then fact that they were being filmed breaking the law, lol. Idiots.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
i reviewed most of the blood evidence around browns body that i can find (from the evidence dump)... its not to descriptive other than classifying the blood as "droplets" and "blood flow". the info i found also doesnt describe the blood 25 feet away so im not sure where this is coming from other than from the nyt article. its probably somewhere i just cannot find it. i would assume it would be contained in the forensics that i read thru. if anyone finds anything else please direct me to since its crucial to the argument that brown charged wilson. since a frequent poster on here seems to never understand the point of my posts i will make this clearer. if the blood found 25 feet beyond brown (assuming the investigator is accurate) is drops of blood then it is hard to argue that brown didnt advance toward wilson. if the blood is not drops of blood than its feasible that browns blood got there from 1. 4.5 hours of blood run 2. splatter from getting his fucking brains blown out thru the eye and from the top of his head
CNN just showed Brown's stepfather on video last night standing next to his mom telling protestors repeatedly to "burn this MF'er down" and to "burn this bitch down" shortly after the no indictment announcement.
jesus christ. yeah, because burning buildings owned by innocent people is the solution.
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
How many officers have been killed by "punched in the face"? "the third one could be fatal, if he hit me right"
What part? Brown went for Wilson's gun, but couldn't reach it through the window and across Wilson's body in its holster. So he thought let me run away and when Wilson starts firing at me Ill juke and jive the bullets like Eric Dickerson while running at him, then Ill get the gun to shoot him dead in broad daylight for telling me to get the fu(K out of the street. Brown's mistake other than walking in the street was giving Wilson the I'm going for your gun face. Why else would Wilson kill him if he didn't give him the I'm going for your gun face? This is nothing new, its all in the police report Wilson filed and it matches his grand jury testimony. You think Wilson's defense would make all this up weeks later after hearing eyewitness accounts in order to fit his story around other indisputable evidence?
if you read the real wilsons story and compare it to my post on 10/30/14, you would say i was pretty darren close! demon face, so much aggression, looking right through me and the bullets, substitute hulk hogan for dickerson and im spot on!
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
Well, Brown outweighed Wilson, and Wilson had already taken a beating from Brown when the jackass leaned into the car and started punching him. So Wilson already experienced Brown's strength and aggression. Why wouldn't he be scared? Besides, you yourself said "Wilson does look like a total wuss." Brown probably thought so, too.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
Well, Brown outweighed Wilson, and Wilson had already taken a beating from Brown when the jackass leaned into the car and started punching him. So Wilson already experienced Brown's strength and aggression. Why wouldn't he be scared? Besides, you yourself said "Wilson does look like a total wuss." Brown probably thought so, too.
but im smart enough to know not to mess with a weasel with a gun, their more inclined to shoot! only wusses need guns, i prefer hand to hand combat, i hunt with a bow, like a real man.
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
Well, Brown outweighed Wilson, and Wilson had already taken a beating from Brown when the jackass leaned into the car and started punching him. So Wilson already experienced Brown's strength and aggression. Why wouldn't he be scared? Besides, you yourself said "Wilson does look like a total wuss." Brown probably thought so, too.
but im smart enough to know not to mess with a weasel with a gun, their more inclined to shoot! only wusses need guns, i prefer hand to hand combat, i hunt with a bow, like a real man.
Looks like you've reached the root cause of the incident, then. Brown was an idiot and got himself killed.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
Well, Brown outweighed Wilson, and Wilson had already taken a beating from Brown when the jackass leaned into the car and started punching him. So Wilson already experienced Brown's strength and aggression. Why wouldn't he be scared? Besides, you yourself said "Wilson does look like a total wuss." Brown probably thought so, too.
but im smart enough to know not to mess with a weasel with a gun, their more inclined to shoot! only wusses need guns, i prefer hand to hand combat, i hunt with a bow, like a real man.
Looks like you've reached the root cause of the incident, then. Brown was an idiot and got himself killed.
for those that dont bother reading the actual evidence...did i not describe this on Oct 30th?
Wilson: When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five year old grabbing Hulk Hogan. Attorney: Holding onto what? Wilson: Hulk Hogan. That's just how big he felt and how small I felt.
And then after he did that, he looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that's how angry he looked.
At this point, it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots. Like it was making him mad that I'm shooting at him. And the face he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I wasn't even in his way ... I remember looking at my sites and firing, all I see is his head, and that's what I shot ... the aggression was gone, the threat was stopped.
Wilson and Brown are about the same height and weight 215 vs 290, Wilson is aiming a gun at Brown Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
Well, Brown outweighed Wilson, and Wilson had already taken a beating from Brown when the jackass leaned into the car and started punching him. So Wilson already experienced Brown's strength and aggression. Why wouldn't he be scared? Besides, you yourself said "Wilson does look like a total wuss." Brown probably thought so, too.
but im smart enough to know not to mess with a weasel with a gun, their more inclined to shoot! only wusses need guns, i prefer hand to hand combat, i hunt with a bow, like a real man.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
What part? Brown went for Wilson's gun, but couldn't reach it through the window and across Wilson's body in its holster. So he thought let me run away and when Wilson starts firing at me Ill juke and jive the bullets like Eric Dickerson while running at him, then Ill get the gun to shoot him dead in broad daylight for telling me to get the fu(K out of the street. Brown's mistake other than walking in the street was giving Wilson the I'm going for your gun face. Why else would Wilson kill him if he didn't give him the I'm going for your gun face? This is nothing new, its all in the police report Wilson filed and it matches his grand jury testimony. You think Wilson's defense would make all this up weeks later after hearing eyewitness accounts in order to fit his story around other indisputable evidence?
if you read the real wilsons story and compare it to my post on 10/30/14, you would say i was pretty darren close! demon face, so much aggression, looking right through me and the bullets, substitute hulk hogan for dickerson and im spot on!
JC,not matter how you slice it,no matter how many times you rehash it,it's not going to change the facts.This whole thing is moot,where he was standing where he is bleeding,etc.The minute the pin head went for the cop he signed his death warrant.Plain and simple. A criminal is dead after committing multiple crimes and you guys want to pick apart the cop doing his job.(He has the right to survive his shift at work and go home to his family also). Im sure the "peaceful protesters" (Burn this motherfucker down)Also are living in a fantasy world were evidence and credible witness testimony should be thrown aside for conjecture,accusations,and emotion.Lets throw the truth out the window!We should make mike Brown out to be a cherub type angel and Wilson is evil as the anti Christ .This whole thing is fucked and I can't believe what I'm seeing out of human beings in the STL burbs.
What part? Brown went for Wilson's gun, but couldn't reach it through the window and across Wilson's body in its holster. So he thought let me run away and when Wilson starts firing at me Ill juke and jive the bullets like Eric Dickerson while running at him, then Ill get the gun to shoot him dead in broad daylight for telling me to get the fu(K out of the street. Brown's mistake other than walking in the street was giving Wilson the I'm going for your gun face. Why else would Wilson kill him if he didn't give him the I'm going for your gun face? This is nothing new, its all in the police report Wilson filed and it matches his grand jury testimony. You think Wilson's defense would make all this up weeks later after hearing eyewitness accounts in order to fit his story around other indisputable evidence?
if you read the real wilsons story and compare it to my post on 10/30/14, you would say i was pretty darren close! demon face, so much aggression, looking right through me and the bullets, substitute hulk hogan for dickerson and im spot on!
JC,not matter how you slice it,no matter how many times you rehash it,it's not going to change the facts.This whole thing is moot,where he was standing where he is bleeding,etc.The minute the pin head went for the cop he signed his death warrant.Plain and simple. A criminal is dead after committing multiple crimes and you guys want to pick apart the cop doing his job.(He has the right to survive his shift at work and go home to his family also). Im sure the "peaceful protesters" (Burn this motherfucker down)Also are living in a fantasy world were evidence and credible witness testimony should be thrown aside for conjecture,accusations,and emotion.Lets throw the truth out the window!We should make mike Brown out to be a cherub type angel and Wilson is evil as the anti Christ .This whole thing is fucked and I can't believe what I'm seeing out of human beings in the STL burbs.
You're a 100% correct but I think you are missing the irony!
Comments
Which all brings me back to my original point. The goal of the prosecutor in convening the grand jury was to not bring charges
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
http://reason.com/archives/2014/11/25/why-michael-browns-killer-would-have-bee
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
if anyone finds anything else please direct me to since its crucial to the argument that brown charged wilson.
since a frequent poster on here seems to never understand the point of my posts i will make this clearer.
if the blood found 25 feet beyond brown (assuming the investigator is accurate) is drops of blood then it is hard to argue that brown didnt advance toward wilson. if the blood is not drops of blood than its feasible that browns blood got there from
1. 4.5 hours of blood run
2. splatter from getting his fucking brains blown out thru the eye and from the top of his head
www.headstonesband.com
Wilson says......."I keep back peddling because I know that if he reaches me he will kill me"
How many officers have been killed by "punched in the face"?
"the third one could be fatal, if he hit me right"
Brown's mistake other than walking in the street was giving Wilson the I'm going for your gun face. Why else would Wilson kill him if he didn't give him the I'm going for your gun face?
This is nothing new, its all in the police report Wilson filed and it matches his grand jury testimony. You think Wilson's defense would make all this up weeks later after hearing eyewitness accounts in order to fit his story around other indisputable evidence?
if you read the real wilsons story and compare it to my post on 10/30/14, you would say i was pretty darren close!
demon face, so much aggression, looking right through me and the bullets, substitute hulk hogan for dickerson and im spot on!
Wilson: When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five year old grabbing Hulk Hogan.
Attorney: Holding onto what?
Wilson: Hulk Hogan. That's just how big he felt and how small I felt.
And then after he did that, he looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that's how angry he looked.
At this point, it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots. Like it was making him mad that I'm shooting at him. And the face he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I wasn't even in his way ... I remember looking at my sites and firing, all I see is his head, and that's what I shot ... the aggression was gone, the threat was stopped.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Im sure the "peaceful protesters" (Burn this motherfucker down)Also are living in a fantasy world were evidence and credible witness testimony should be thrown aside for conjecture,accusations,and emotion.Lets throw the truth out the window!We should make mike Brown out to be a cherub type angel and Wilson is evil as the anti Christ .This whole thing is fucked and I can't believe what I'm seeing out of human beings in the STL burbs.