I wished a fellow member of this club, this club that we are all connected by and that transcends national, ethnic and religious bounds, well after that member was drafted into military service. I make ZERO apologies for that.
Attacking each other here accomplishes nothing and benefits the poor people of Gaza not at all.
Rafie, many of us here want nothing more than the shooting on both sides to stop.
Really? Is that all you want? You want nothing more than for the shooting on both sides to stop?
And what about the illegal occupation? And the continuing illegal settlement construction? And the blockade of Gaza? And the daily settler attacks against Palestinians?
Are you o.k with all of those?
Byrnzie, calm down. The first thing that has to happen before anything else is that the shooting has to stop. The daily attacks, the occupation, the illegal settlement construction. He's wishing a person well before going to war. Regardless of the side. Nothing can be done while the shooting continues. Most of us agree that the Israelis are committing haneous acts and have illegally occupied Gaza for decades. You want to argue with every statement written here, weather they agree with you or not. We all get it.
I was simply going by what he said. Sure, the shooting needs to stop, but not so we can see a return to the status quo.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I wished a fellow member of this club, this club that we are all connected by and that transcends national, ethnic and religious bounds, well after that member was drafted into military service. I make ZERO apologies for that.
Attacking each other here accomplishes nothing and benefits the poor people of Gaza not at all.
Thanks, I was going to say something similar (still early here and the coffee has yet to kick in), so I'll piggyback on this instead.
Rafie, many of us here want nothing more than the shooting on both sides to stop.
Really? Is that all you want? You want nothing more than for the shooting on both sides to stop?
And what about the illegal occupation? And the continuing illegal settlement construction? And the blockade of Gaza? And the daily settler attacks against Palestinians?
Are you o.k with all of those?
HE already told you he was not ok with innocent lives lost.Hes not a fucking politician.Shit Byrnzie,maybe the dude is scared about going to war,maybe not for just his own safety,but for what comes along with being a soldier,what you see,do,witness.no matter what the cause its fucking horrible. I would wish a palestinian who is riding this out well wishes,just as i would Raffie.You guys are getting shitty.
The cognitive dissonance of Americans: you want wars to stop, but you tell a soldier "Good luck!" before he goes off to murder more people. Shame on those who fight to prolong Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestinians. I have the utmost respect to those few Israelis who stand up and refuse to serve in the cowardly, terrorist army.
Dude….hes wishing a fellow PJ fan on these boards to stay safe.Nothing more, nothing less.Us stupid Americans do shit like that!!
I've gotten like three responses to what I wrote, the above being the first, and not one person actually responded to what I said. Americans, and I'm American so I'm speaking based off what I witnessed, seem to abide by this culture where it's possible to be anti-war without shouldering any of the responsibility, and blame for that matter, on the soldiers themselves. It's all the fault of "The Man" who "makes" these "poor soldiers" go to war. What a joke. A massacre is taking place on your television sets, and when a man walks in to tell you that he's about to go participate in it, you all say "be well", while claiming to desire peace and an end to the massacre. If this isn't cognitive dissonance then I don't know what is.
The cognitive dissonance of Americans: you want wars to stop, but you tell a soldier "Good luck!" before he goes off to murder more people. Shame on those who fight to prolong Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestinians. I have the utmost respect to those few Israelis who stand up and refuse to serve in the cowardly, terrorist army.
Such an ignorant thing to say. I love how people around the think we are such morons.
The cognitive dissonance of Americans: you want wars to stop, but you tell a soldier "Good luck!" before he goes off to murder more people. Shame on those who fight to prolong Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestinians. I have the utmost respect to those few Israelis who stand up and refuse to serve in the cowardly, terrorist army.
Such an ignorant thing to say. I love how people around the think we are such morons.
How is that ignorant?
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
The cognitive dissonance of Americans: you want wars to stop, but you tell a soldier "Good luck!" before he goes off to murder more people. Shame on those who fight to prolong Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestinians. I have the utmost respect to those few Israelis who stand up and refuse to serve in the cowardly, terrorist army.
Dude….hes wishing a fellow PJ fan on these boards to stay safe.Nothing more, nothing less.Us stupid Americans do shit like that!!
I've gotten like three responses to what I wrote, the above being the first, and not one person actually responded to what I said. Americans, and I'm American so I'm speaking based off what I witnessed, seem to abide by this culture where it's possible to be anti-war without shouldering any of the responsibility, and blame for that matter, on the soldiers themselves. It's all the fault of "The Man" who "makes" these "poor soldiers" go to war. What a joke. A massacre is taking place on your television sets, and when a man walks in to tell you that he's about to go participate in it, you all say "be well", while claiming to desire peace and an end to the massacre. If this isn't cognitive dissonance then I don't know what is.
I don't "claim" to desire peace, I do desire peace.
Do you not wish him well? And what happens if he refuses to serve?
Look, I can respect how adamant you are and your willingness to share your side, but I have no need to justify or defend my hope that someone about to face a shitstorm keeps safe.
Wishing somebody well before he goes to war and hoping he doesn't get killed is a far cry from supporting somebody going off to murder. The ignorant part is comparing the two and saying Americans are supporting the murderous actions of Isreal by wishing an Israeli soldier well before he goes off to mandatory service. Wheather or not you share the same beliefs as whoever the hell it is that is going to serve in the Israeli army Monday, one shouldn't be chastised for hoping he doesn't die. Hopefully he will have the common sense not to murder innocent civilians in this war. If he does, shame on him and i would.hope he is convicted of war crimes. That still doesn't mean I can't hope he comes back alive.
What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.
Some of the worst crimes committed have been done by people 'just following orders'.
If rafie supports the actions of his government, then he should serve, proudly, but if he is truly against these actions of his government, he should probably then object and not go.
I hate this occupation/massacre...but good luck being involved in it, hope you keep well! Stay safe!
Wishing somebody well before he goes to war and hoping he doesn't get killed is a far cry from supporting somebody going off to murder. The ignorant part is comparing the two and saying Americans are supporting the murderous actions of Isreal by wishing an Israeli soldier well before he goes off to mandatory service. Wheather or not you share the same beliefs as whoever the hell it is that is going to serve in the Israeli army Monday, one shouldn't be chastised for hoping he doesn't die. Hopefully he will have the common sense not to murder innocent civilians in this war. If he does, shame on him and i would.hope he is convicted of war crimes. That still doesn't mean I can't hope he comes back alive.
What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't see what he/she said was ignorant. Semantics or difference of opinion perhaps.
At some point if you want real peace the soldier has to take a stand and not go. Face the consequences. But from what I read from Raffies earlier post she/he believes this is a just conflict. So no need to take a stand.
With all the evidence that has come out I could not in good conscience participate in this conflict. I know it's easy for me to say sitting from the comfort of my home in peace, but that is just how I feel.
I do not wish anyone harm, but I can understand why someone would not wish them luck either.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
What are the consequences? I don't know.
And I don't think I've seen anyone say "good luck", just sending wishes for safety on what I can't imagine his path tomorrow will take.
To Idris, having my grandparents placed in a camp and my grandmother dying there, I get your comment about "just following orders". To be honest, I have conflicting feelings about that and probably always will.
I made two posts in regards to Rafie. In neither did I wish him luck. I urged him to be well and to get back safe...and only after stressing that I wanted nothing more than for the shooting to stop.
I've made this point before and I will repeat it here: Many of the pro-Israeli voices have retreated from this discussion, and in their absence a few of the pro-Palestinian voices have turned their anger on others, many of whom do largely agree with their cause.
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Cheers, man. Thank you for sharing of yourself, and agreed with your last sentence - speedy, among other things.
I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue.
Israel has had 47 years to end it's occupation through dialogue, but has failed to engage in good-faith negotiations to reach a peaceful settlement.
Now it's time for the international community to impose strict sanctions and boycotts on Israel to force it to comply with it's obligations under international law.
To Idris, having my grandparents placed in a camp and my grandmother dying there, I get your comment about "just following orders". To be honest, I have conflicting feelings about that and probably always will.
Fair enough, I can't comment regarding such matters of your heart, I hope one day those conflicted feelings you have are settled.
Israel spied on John Kerry during failed peace talks – report
Der Spiegel says Israelis eavesdropped on phone calls State Department offers no comment
theguardian.com, Sunday 3 August 2014
john kerry The US secretary of state, John Kerry, speaks on his phone at Ramstein air base in Germany on Friday. Photograph: Lucas Jackson/AP
Israel spied on the US secretary of state, John Kerry, during peace talks with Palestinians and Arab states last year, the magazine Der Spiegel has reported.
The German weekly said on Sunday that Israeli intelligence and at least one other secret service intercepted Kerry’s phone calls during a doomed, nine-month effort to broker a peace deal.
If confirmed, the report will further sour the diplomat’s relationship with Binyamin Netanyahu’s government and raise fresh questions about the vulnerability of phone communications to eavesdropping.
There was no immediate reaction from Jerusalem or Washington. The State Department did not respond to a request for comment.
The report was published on another bloody day in Gaza, where a projectile hit a street outside a school where people were sheltering, killing at least seven and wounding dozens, many of whom were buying sweets and biscuits from stalls.
The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, called the attack a “moral outrage and a criminal act” and said the Israel Defence Forces had been repeatedly informed of the location of civilian shelters.
Citing “several intelligence sources”, Der Spiegel said Israeli spies and an unidentified intelligence agency listened in on Kerry’s talks with high-ranking officials from Israel, the Palestinian territories and Arab states. Some calls were allegedly made on normal phones and were not encrypted.
“The government in Jerusalem then used the information obtained in international negotiations aiming to reach a diplomatic solution in the Middle East,” it said.
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform).
Incredible. The ones calling for an end to the illegal occupation and the persecution of Palestinians by Israelis are more violent than those killing (or contributing to the murder) to preserve it.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
Wishing somebody well before he goes to war and hoping he doesn't get killed is a far cry from supporting somebody going off to murder. The ignorant part is comparing the two and saying Americans are supporting the murderous actions of Isreal by wishing an Israeli soldier well before he goes off to mandatory service. Wheather or not you share the same beliefs as whoever the hell it is that is going to serve in the Israeli army Monday, one shouldn't be chastised for hoping he doesn't die. Hopefully he will have the common sense not to murder innocent civilians in this war. If he does, shame on him and i would.hope he is convicted of war crimes. That still doesn't mean I can't hope he comes back alive.
Again, you have not answered my actual concerns. This just sounds like an emotional rant on your part. My point is: when do we assign responsibility not just for those declaring the war, but those soldiers participating in it and carrying out these massacres? A soldier who reports to duty, does he or she not carry part of the responsibility for contributing to this mass murder?
If we rewinded this to the era of Apartheid South Africa and you all were meeting a policemen going out to arrest and kill Black South Africans, would you wish him well before his journey or try to hold his feet to the fire and ask that he not participate in this madness? Would you demand that he shoulder some of the responsibility?
What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.
So we're using the "I was just taking orders" line? And here I thought comparing Zionists to Nazis wasn't acceptable...
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?
I would surmise that you yourself have never made such a valiant and bold stand in your life like the one you are demanding from rafie.
Don't get me wrong- I wish he wasn't adding to the forces that are mounting against the Palestinian people. I just don't like everybody talking so self-righteous from the comfort of their sofas.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
This is nonsense. You'll have to explain how you perceived this from my writing.
I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.
Comments
Attacking each other here accomplishes nothing and benefits the poor people of Gaza not at all.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I would wish a palestinian who is riding this out well wishes,just as i would Raffie.You guys are getting shitty.
A massacre is taking place on your television sets, and when a man walks in to tell you that he's about to go participate in it, you all say "be well", while claiming to desire peace and an end to the massacre. If this isn't cognitive dissonance then I don't know what is.
Do you not wish him well? And what happens if he refuses to serve?
Look, I can respect how adamant you are and your willingness to share your side, but I have no need to justify or defend my hope that someone about to face a shitstorm keeps safe.
It's a human thing.
What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.
If rafie supports the actions of his government, then he should serve, proudly, but if he is truly against these actions of his government, he should probably then object and not go.
I hate this occupation/massacre...but good luck being involved in it, hope you keep well! Stay safe!
At some point if you want real peace the soldier has to take a stand and not go. Face the consequences. But from what I read from Raffies earlier post she/he believes this is a just conflict. So no need to take a stand.
With all the evidence that has come out I could not in good conscience participate in this conflict. I know it's easy for me to say sitting from the comfort of my home in peace, but that is just how I feel.
I do not wish anyone harm, but I can understand why someone would not wish them luck either.
And I don't think I've seen anyone say "good luck", just sending wishes for safety on what I can't imagine his path tomorrow will take.
To Idris, having my grandparents placed in a camp and my grandmother dying there, I get your comment about "just following orders". To be honest, I have conflicting feelings about that and probably always will.
I've made this point before and I will repeat it here: Many of the pro-Israeli voices have retreated from this discussion, and in their absence a few of the pro-Palestinian voices have turned their anger on others, many of whom do largely agree with their cause.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
With any luck you will not be sent into this conflict and it will end soon. Like I said before I wish you nor anyone else harm.
=D>
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
You know anything about Hannibal directive?
Now it's time for the international community to impose strict sanctions and boycotts on Israel to force it to comply with it's obligations under international law.
Israel spied on John Kerry during failed peace talks – report
Der Spiegel says Israelis eavesdropped on phone calls
State Department offers no comment
theguardian.com, Sunday 3 August 2014
john kerry The US secretary of state, John Kerry, speaks on his phone at Ramstein air base in Germany on Friday. Photograph: Lucas Jackson/AP
Israel spied on the US secretary of state, John Kerry, during peace talks with Palestinians and Arab states last year, the magazine Der Spiegel has reported.
The German weekly said on Sunday that Israeli intelligence and at least one other secret service intercepted Kerry’s phone calls during a doomed, nine-month effort to broker a peace deal.
If confirmed, the report will further sour the diplomat’s relationship with Binyamin Netanyahu’s government and raise fresh questions about the vulnerability of phone communications to eavesdropping.
There was no immediate reaction from Jerusalem or Washington. The State Department did not respond to a request for comment.
The report was published on another bloody day in Gaza, where a projectile hit a street outside a school where people were sheltering, killing at least seven and wounding dozens, many of whom were buying sweets and biscuits from stalls.
The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, called the attack a “moral outrage and a criminal act” and said the Israel Defence Forces had been repeatedly informed of the location of civilian shelters.
Citing “several intelligence sources”, Der Spiegel said Israeli spies and an unidentified intelligence agency listened in on Kerry’s talks with high-ranking officials from Israel, the Palestinian territories and Arab states. Some calls were allegedly made on normal phones and were not encrypted.
“The government in Jerusalem then used the information obtained in international negotiations aiming to reach a diplomatic solution in the Middle East,” it said.
....
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
If we rewinded this to the era of Apartheid South Africa and you all were meeting a policemen going out to arrest and kill Black South Africans, would you wish him well before his journey or try to hold his feet to the fire and ask that he not participate in this madness? Would you demand that he shoulder some of the responsibility? So we're using the "I was just taking orders" line? And here I thought comparing Zionists to Nazis wasn't acceptable...
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
I would surmise that you yourself have never made such a valiant and bold stand in your life like the one you are demanding from rafie.
Don't get me wrong- I wish he wasn't adding to the forces that are mounting against the Palestinian people. I just don't like everybody talking so self-righteous from the comfort of their sofas.
I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.