I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?
I would surmise that you yourself have never made such a valiant and bold stand in your life like the one you are demanding from rafie.
Don't get me wrong- I wish he wasn't adding to the forces that are mounting against the Palestinian people. I just don't like everybody talking so self-righteous from the comfort of their sofas.
At times like these, when faced with such ignorance. I shrug my shoulders and remove myself from the discussion.
Stick to the facts 'Thirty', stick with things that you know, and you have no idea about my history or what I do.
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was. I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).
Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?
I spoke even more strongly when it came to US soldiers. Who said anything about 'picking and choosing'?.
It's about doing the 'right' thing, you know, do not take over other lands, do not bomb kids...
The entire world was against the Iraq war and I'm sorry, doing whats right is before ones country, cause if my country is not doing whats right, then I will not 'support' it. If that makes sense.
I expect people to use their brains, not just follow orders, especially when you know the history of where those orders often come from.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
This is nonsense. You'll have to explain how you perceived this from my writing.
I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.
You said, "All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do."
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?
I spoke even more strongly when it came to US soldiers. Who said anything about 'picking and choosing'?.
It's about doing the 'right' thing, you know, do not take over other lands, do not bomb kids...
The entire world was against the Iraq war and I'm sorry, doing whats right is before ones country, cause if my country is not doing whats right, then I will not 'support' it. If that makes sense.
I expect people to use their brains, not just follow orders, especially when you know the history of where those orders often come from.
For clarification: I said (meant) soldiers 'picking and choosing' ... the things they would engage in and which they wouldn't. There has never been a successful military at any moment in history where their soldiers have operated in such a manner.
To your comments: Were you critical of the individual soldiers in Iraq... or were you critical of policy makers?
I had prepared a piece for you, but I'll submit only the following portion of it: I'm as shocked and upset as anyone with what is happening right now. I am not defending Israel. I am not defending rafie either as much as it would appear that way. If you look at my first response to him, I believe I said something along the lines of: stay well and I hope you don't have to do anything awful. I just think when a guy says he's being pushed into the fire... regardless of what we might be thinking... we shouldn't tell him to, basically, quit your commitment to your service or go fuck himself.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
This is nonsense. You'll have to explain how you perceived this from my writing.
I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.
You said, "All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do."
So... again... how does this equate to trivializing things and equating his call to duty with the struggles of the Palestinian people?
This speaks to people living in other countries weighing in from the safety of their living rooms.
If people want to get involved in something they feel strongly about and demand others place themselves at great personal risk for the same cause... then they should lead by example. Typing all day on a rock band's website isn't exactly what I would call placing yourself at risk, nor is it really committing yourself to the cause.
To illustrate what I mean, regardless of what you think of 'his' cause, Pat Tillman brushed aside his NFL career to join the forces and fight in Afghanistan (where he was killed). He never 'talked the talk'... he 'walked the walk'.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
This is nonsense. You'll have to explain how you perceived this from my writing.
I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.
You said, "All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do."
To illustrate what I mean, regardless of what you think of 'his' cause, Pat Tillman brushed aside his NFL career to join the forces and fight in Afghanistan (where he was killed). He never 'talked the talk'... he 'walked the walk'.
and If Pat Tillman could have foreseen that he would be killed by his own people, then used as a propaganda piece by his very own government, would he still have 'walked the walk'?
Perhaps, but nevertheless, the 'cause' was NOT 'just', bombing villages was NOT the 'right' thing, melting the skins of children with chemical weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan is a crime against humanity and these wars could not have happened if all these soldiers who knew it was 'wrong', but still took part in it refused to serve. Would the government really of locked up everyone?
No, of course not. But that takes courage, that takes heart, not dropping bombs on people, and not being part of an army/military massacring innocent people.
Really, enough is enough, stop voting for these turkeys, democrats, republicans, same thing.
I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First ending.
I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.
and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.
You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.
"I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."
Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.
All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.
Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.
If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.
My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?
I spoke even more strongly when it came to US soldiers. Who said anything about 'picking and choosing'?.
It's about doing the 'right' thing, you know, do not take over other lands, do not bomb kids...
The entire world was against the Iraq war and I'm sorry, doing whats right is before ones country, cause if my country is not doing whats right, then I will not 'support' it. If that makes sense.
I expect people to use their brains, not just follow orders, especially when you know the history of where those orders often come from.
For clarification: I said (meant) soldiers 'picking and choosing' ... the things they would engage in and which they wouldn't. There has never been a successful military at any moment in history where their soldiers have operated in such a manner.
To your comments: Were you critical of the individual soldiers in Iraq... or were you critical of policy makers?
I had prepared a piece for you, but I'll submit only the following portion of it: I'm as shocked and upset as anyone with what is happening right now. I am not defending Israel. I am not defending rafie either as much as it would appear that way. If you look at my first response to him, I believe I said something along the lines of: stay well and I hope you don't have to do anything awful. I just think when a guy says he's being pushed into the fire... regardless of what we might be thinking... we shouldn't tell him to, basically, quit your commitment to your service or go fuck himself.
and perhaps that is why the world has always seen wars, because people have always been 'willing' to 'fight' in them, and 'we' always (often) just let it happen,
We are on the same side, Idris. I'm appalled at this conflict and feel as horrible as anyone about it.
Let's just acknowledge we have things infinitely easier than Palestinian people and Israeli people for that matter. It's just too easy for us to sit and talk of how we would do things when we are not there.
That is really the only point I wished to make after placing myself in an Israeli reserve's shoes that didn't come across as an anxious killer as much as a conflicted human being (at least to me anyways).
If we can't agree on this then fair enough, but this 'side issue' has played itself out in my mind.
Have a good night. Or day if you read this in the morning.
We are on the same side, Idris. I'm appalled at this conflict and feel as horrible as anyone about it.
Let's just acknowledge we have things infinitely easier than Palestinian people and Israeli people for that matter. It's just too easy for us to sit and talk of how we would do things when we are not there.
That is really the only point I wished to make after placing myself in an Israeli reserve's shoes that didn't come across as an anxious killer as much as a conflicted human being (at least to me anyways).
If we can't agree on this then fair enough, but this 'side issue' has played itself out in my mind.
Have a good night. Or day if you read this in the morning.
Sorry, but we clearly are 'not' on the same side. If you were discouraging rafie from going, that would be another thing, I mean right in front of you, about to make history and fight in this major world event, for a cause that is sooo not 'right', and what do you tell him? [stay well and I hope you don't have to do anything awful.]... Cause being part of an army that is currently massacring people is not awful enough. - and rafie has an American passport, he's not just some Israeli living in Israel, it's clearly his choice doing what he is doing/about to do, again, for a cause that is clearly NOT 'just'. I don't wish bad on him, never even hinted that, I just wish he would do what you think I do, sit on my sofa typing all day on a rock bands web site.
Hey, If everyone just sits down on a sofa, no wars. Maybe being a sofa warrior has some merit to it?
and what's this? [Let's just acknowledge we have things infinitely easier than Palestinian people and Israeli people for that matter]
What? k, that was weird, fine. 'I acknowledge that I have things infinitely easier than the people in occupied Palestine'
As far as many of the Israeli people go, are things very difficult for them right now? You occupy a land for so many years, unleash such brutality and bloodshed, good, I'm glad things are not easy for them.
Real plain and simple. You are a keyboard hero. Congratulations on the outstanding contributions you have made towards the Gaza crisis.
You never did acknowledge the real simple point I made about 'walking the walk'. You suggest to an army reserve that he face punitive measures and take a stand. So what are you going to do?
Real plain and simple. You are a keyboard hero. Congratulations on the outstanding contributions you have made towards the Gaza crisis.
You never did acknowledge the real simple point I made about 'walking the walk'. You suggest to an army reserve that he face punitive measures and take a stand. So what are you going to do?
Again, you speak of what you do not know, now your emotions are getting the best of you.
Again, your simple nature befuddles you from understanding what I am nearly done trying to explain to you.
Duh.
Of course we would all like to see all soldiers drop their weapons and the world to assume peace. But, in my world, to be the person making demands of people means you are doing something profound as well. It's easy to talk and have expectations of others when you are nice and safe from any recourse that might be uncomfortable.
So, continue to feel like you have done something to make things better. You haven't. You have done nothing remotely close as what you demand from a reserve that you don't even know who is pushed into a fucking awful situation.
I'll try again... are you doing anything to offer serious help here or are you just expecting others to?
Again, your simple nature befuddles you from understanding what I am nearly done trying to explain to you.
Duh.
Of course we would all like to see all soldiers drop their weapons and the world to assume peace. But, in my world, to be the person making demands of people means you are doing something profound as well. It's easy to talk and have expectations of others when you are nice and safe from any recourse that might be uncomfortable.
So, continue to feel like you have done something to make things better. You haven't. You have done nothing remotely close as what you demand from a reserve that you don't even know who is pushed into a fucking awful situation.
I'll try again... are you doing anything to offer serious help here or are you just expecting others to?
Again, you do not know me, you do not know my history, and you do not know what I do or do not do.
Why assume the person you are interacting with is some 'whatever', we all have history, have lives, dont fool yourself into thinking just because people have some time to post, they dont have meaningful lives, making real change, without weapons of death.
Maybe you are just projecting yourself? onto me, maybe YOU sit around and do nothing, so you assume everyone must,cause again, you do not know me, you took your own opinions about me, turned them to facts in your head, then spouted it publicly, all pure conjecture.
But I'll pm you from here on, as you have taken this personal, and I dont want this thread to get locked.
Sorry everyone else, the drama continues behind closed doors.
would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue.
I'm sure glad I don't live in a state in which my duty is to kill people. Esp if I didn't support the cause.... Not sure where rafie says he doesn't tho. He says it's been a long time coming, this war he's reporting for - his duty to stay in Israel when he has dual US citizenship, this duty in an organization that has been killing innocent palestinian women and children by the hundreds, maiming them and destroying their livelihoods by the thousands - those who cannot get meaningful citizenship in ANY country, let alone choose to leave.....this duty in an organization that has been killing innocent palestinian women and children by the hundreds, maiming them and destroying their livelihoods by the thousands,,,,.so that he can stop his friends israeli kid (who has the means and freedom to travel) from being traumatized....by sirens. Because, you know....only dialogue will end the conflict. I mean...the contradictions and double standards are so blindingly obvious. I don't wish harm on anyone. But some people deserve/need our wishes for safety more than others.
Again, your simple nature befuddles you from understanding what I am nearly done trying to explain to you.
Duh.
Of course we would all like to see all soldiers drop their weapons and the world to assume peace. But, in my world, to be the person making demands of people means you are doing something profound as well. It's easy to talk and have expectations of others when you are nice and safe from any recourse that might be uncomfortable.
So, continue to feel like you have done something to make things better. You haven't. You have done nothing remotely close as what you demand from a reserve that you don't even know who is pushed into a fucking awful situation.
I'll try again... are you doing anything to offer serious help here or are you just expecting others to?
Again, you do not know me, you do not know my history, and you do not know what I do or do not do.
Why assume the person you are interacting with is some 'whatever', we all have history, have lives, dont fool yourself into thinking just because people have some time post, they dont have meaningful lives, making real change, without weapons of death.
Maybe you are just projecting your useless?self onto me, cause again, you do not know me, you took your own opinions about me, turned them to facts in your head, then spouted it publicly, all pure conjecture.
But I'll pm you from here on, as you have taken this personal, and I dont want this thread to get locked.
Sorry everyone else, the drama continues behind closed doors.
My useless self? Okay.
I've assumed nothing of you. I post as much as you.
Read the exchanges. I speak to the fact that it's easy to speak with no real investment. That's all really.
This entire situation is not about you and me. Let's not try and make it so. You are a reasonable person and I completely understand high tensions given what is happening.
Feel free to pm me if you wish and I'll try to explain what I've been trying to say in a better way.
I just wanna say, that I changed 'useless'self after I read my post over after initially posting it a minute later. It was not accurate, I'm sorry, that should not of come off my fingers in regards to you.
I just wanna say, that I changed 'useless'self after I read my post over after initially posting it a minute later. It was not accurate, I'm sorry, that should not of come off my fingers in regards to you.
Unfortunately, yes, he does. 90% of Israeli's currently support the mass-murder of Palestinian civilians. And many have been calling for out-and-out genocide.
No, That is not true. 90% of Israeli's currently support destroying Hamas. Most people don't support killing innocents. Israel doesn't want to stay in Gaza. Israel left Gaza 10 years ago, and yesterday, after completing the mission of destroying terror tunnels, the troops left Gaza.
90% of Israeli's currently support the mass-murder of Palestinian civilians. And many have been calling for out-and-out genocide.
No, That is not true. 90% of Israeli's currently support destroying Hamas. Most people don't support killing innocents. Israel doesn't want to stay in Gaza.
Yes, you're right. It's not true. I said 90%. I should have said 95%.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4551824,00.html Over the course of three surveys conducted in the past two weeks, an average of 95 percent of respondents said that Operation Protective Edge was justified, while only 3-4 percent said the IDF has used excessive firepower in Gaza.
They're not destroying Hamas. They've killed approx 90% civilians. It's not an attack on Hamas, it's an attack on the people of Gaza for voting for the wrong party. Just like the last full-scale massacre of Gazan civilians during 2008-2009 when approx 90% of the dead were civilians.
And numerous Israeli's have been calling for genocide:
Israel left Gaza 10 years ago, and yesterday, after completing the mission of destroying terror tunnels, the troops left Gaza.
You're just spouting Israeli propaganda. According to every international standard, Gaza has remained occupied territory.
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8807/is-gaza-still-occupied-and-why-does-it-matter Territory that was militarily conquered remains occupied until sovereignty supplants foreign control. As long as the Gaza Strip is non-sovereign, it is occupied, and as long as it is occupied its relationship to Israel continues to be governed by international humanitarian law (IHL), which forms part of the laws of war.
...there has been no end to Israel’s capacity to exercise “effective control” over Gaza.
In 2007, John Dugard, then UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, explained that the manifestations of Israel’s continuing effective control include: (a) substantial control of Gaza’s six land crossings; (b) control through military incursions, rocket attacks and sonic booms, and the declaration of areas inside the Strip as “no-go” zones where anyone who enters can be shot; (c) complete control of Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters; and (d) control of the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power and authority to define who is a “Palestinian” and who is a resident of Gaza.
And as for your use of the term 'terror tunnels', would you care to explain why you chose that phrase considering that no terrorist attacks have taken place through those tunnels? The Hamas/Al Qassam fighters have only targeted the IDF, which they are entitled to do under international law. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians, as the Israeli's have been doing for the past two weeks.
Again, not true. What I see over the news (not the Israeli media) ~50% are Hamas people. + Also Hamas calls its people "armed civilians" much more easy to blame death as civilians. In the last operation, Hamas admitted 70% of those who killed were Hamas members. Forgive me if I have ZERO tolerance for dead terrorist, who wants to attack innocents civilians.
And Hamas plan was a MASSIVE terror attack on new years eve. That is insane. I believe in their right to live normal life and I wish for it with all my heart, to have their own country with government that would actually take care for it's people. Unfortunately (and I am speaking about Hamas and similar terror organizations who say it out laud; to extinct Israel) they don't recognize my right of living, not in Tel Aviv, nor anywhere..
You are naive if you think differently regarding Hamas wishes to Israelis\Jewish in general. Take a look what's going on in Europe. Israel is the last fronter in front of the terror, probably, while we are speaking radical groups in Europe, planning the next terror attack. As ISIS said "we will stop when we see our flag on the white house". I really hope we will never get there. I guess you tend to forget that Al Qaeda who planned 9/11 is the one who supports Hamas.
They haven't killed because of sirens\shelters\iron dome. BTW since it all started couple of weeks ago I don't leave my house unless I have to (means work only). I rather stay close to a shelter than get caught in the middle of the street\ride when sirens goes off.
Wars for profit don't stop until the people rise up and refuse to fight them! Evilrona sirens in Isael = anxiety Sirens in Gaza = death + targets for more bombs... Forgive us if our hearts go to Gaza and not Israel
Forgive me if I don't feel sorry for having iron dome.
My heart and every reasonable heart in Israel goes to Gaza, don't get me wrong. I do believe in peace, I do believe in coexistence. Saying that, I don't see how we can keep going negotiating with Khaled Mashal who CLEARLY say OUT LOUD that Israel should not exist.
I'd love to hear what do you think should happen if rockets keep firing\terror tunnels being build under my home. How should I deal with suicide terror attacks on buses? I wonder what is your opinion on Hamas keeping rockets in UNRWA schools&hospitals? And Hamas in general?
As we were talking there were 2 terror attacks in Jerusalem. Israel ceased fire this morning and got 35 rockets.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Wars for profit don't stop until the people rise up and refuse to fight them! Evilrona sirens in Isael = anxiety Sirens in Gaza = death + targets for more bombs... Forgive us if our hearts go to Gaza and not Israel
Whoa. Has it really come down to "Love ya, Gaza...fuck you, Israel"?
There are human beings in both areas being fucked.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,736
As I sit here and read numerous posts from several people for whom, in the past, I have felt a lot of admiration and see how they attack each other with vicious words I think to myself, now I know why the world is so fucked up and we don't stand a chance. We will be at each others throats until the final bloody end when everything and everyone turns to worms.
That's my optimistic outlook for the day. I'm out of here.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
They haven't killed because of sirens\shelters\iron dome. BTW since it all started couple of weeks ago I don't leave my house unless I have to (means work only). I rather stay close to a shelter than get caught in the middle of the street\ride when sirens goes off.
if you dont mind me asking, how do you get to work? mode of transportation...
Comments
Stick to the facts 'Thirty', stick with things that you know, and you have no idea about my history or what I do.
classy indeed.
It's about doing the 'right' thing, you know, do not take over other lands, do not bomb kids...
The entire world was against the Iraq war and I'm sorry, doing whats right is before ones country, cause if my country is not doing whats right, then I will not 'support' it. If that makes sense.
I expect people to use their brains, not just follow orders, especially when you know the history of where those orders often come from.
To your comments: Were you critical of the individual soldiers in Iraq... or were you critical of policy makers?
I had prepared a piece for you, but I'll submit only the following portion of it: I'm as shocked and upset as anyone with what is happening right now. I am not defending Israel. I am not defending rafie either as much as it would appear that way. If you look at my first response to him, I believe I said something along the lines of: stay well and I hope you don't have to do anything awful. I just think when a guy says he's being pushed into the fire... regardless of what we might be thinking... we shouldn't tell him to, basically, quit your commitment to your service or go fuck himself.
This speaks to people living in other countries weighing in from the safety of their living rooms.
If people want to get involved in something they feel strongly about and demand others place themselves at great personal risk for the same cause... then they should lead by example. Typing all day on a rock band's website isn't exactly what I would call placing yourself at risk, nor is it really committing yourself to the cause.
To illustrate what I mean, regardless of what you think of 'his' cause, Pat Tillman brushed aside his NFL career to join the forces and fight in Afghanistan (where he was killed). He never 'talked the talk'... he 'walked the walk'.
Perhaps, but nevertheless, the 'cause' was NOT 'just', bombing villages was NOT the 'right' thing, melting the skins of children with chemical weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan is a crime against humanity and these wars could not have happened if all these soldiers who knew it was 'wrong', but still took part in it refused to serve. Would the government really of locked up everyone?
No, of course not. But that takes courage, that takes heart, not dropping bombs on people, and not being part of an army/military massacring innocent people.
Really, enough is enough, stop voting for these turkeys, democrats, republicans, same thing.
That's change, that's what I want to see.
Let's just acknowledge we have things infinitely easier than Palestinian people and Israeli people for that matter. It's just too easy for us to sit and talk of how we would do things when we are not there.
That is really the only point I wished to make after placing myself in an Israeli reserve's shoes that didn't come across as an anxious killer as much as a conflicted human being (at least to me anyways).
If we can't agree on this then fair enough, but this 'side issue' has played itself out in my mind.
Have a good night. Or day if you read this in the morning.
-
and rafie has an American passport, he's not just some Israeli living in Israel, it's clearly his choice doing what he is doing/about to do, again, for a cause that is clearly NOT 'just'. I don't wish bad on him, never even hinted that, I just wish he would do what you think I do, sit on my sofa typing all day on a rock bands web site.
Hey, If everyone just sits down on a sofa, no wars. Maybe being a sofa warrior has some merit to it?
and what's this? [Let's just acknowledge we have things infinitely easier than Palestinian people and Israeli people for that matter]
What? k, that was weird, fine. 'I acknowledge that I have things infinitely easier than the people in occupied Palestine'
As far as many of the Israeli people go, are things very difficult for them right now? You occupy a land for so many years, unleash such brutality and bloodshed, good, I'm glad things are not easy for them.
Real plain and simple. You are a keyboard hero. Congratulations on the outstanding contributions you have made towards the Gaza crisis.
You never did acknowledge the real simple point I made about 'walking the walk'. You suggest to an army reserve that he face punitive measures and take a stand. So what are you going to do?
Duh.
Of course we would all like to see all soldiers drop their weapons and the world to assume peace. But, in my world, to be the person making demands of people means you are doing something profound as well. It's easy to talk and have expectations of others when you are nice and safe from any recourse that might be uncomfortable.
So, continue to feel like you have done something to make things better. You haven't. You have done nothing remotely close as what you demand from a reserve that you don't even know who is pushed into a fucking awful situation.
I'll try again... are you doing anything to offer serious help here or are you just expecting others to?
Why assume the person you are interacting with is some 'whatever', we all have history, have lives, dont fool yourself into thinking just because people have some time to post, they dont have meaningful lives, making real change, without weapons of death.
Maybe you are just projecting yourself? onto me, maybe YOU sit around and do nothing, so you assume everyone must,cause again, you do not know me, you took your own opinions about me, turned them to facts in your head, then spouted it publicly, all pure conjecture.
But I'll pm you from here on, as you have taken this personal, and I dont want this thread to get locked.
Sorry everyone else, the drama continues behind closed doors.
I mean...the contradictions and double standards are so blindingly obvious.
I don't wish harm on anyone. But some people deserve/need our wishes for safety more than others.
I've assumed nothing of you. I post as much as you.
Read the exchanges. I speak to the fact that it's easy to speak with no real investment. That's all really.
This entire situation is not about you and me. Let's not try and make it so. You are a reasonable person and I completely understand high tensions given what is happening.
Feel free to pm me if you wish and I'll try to explain what I've been trying to say in a better way.
90% of Israeli's currently support destroying Hamas. Most people don't support killing innocents. Israel doesn't want to stay in Gaza.
Israel left Gaza 10 years ago, and yesterday, after completing the mission of destroying terror tunnels, the troops left Gaza.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4551824,00.html
Over the course of three surveys conducted in the past two weeks, an average of 95 percent of respondents said that Operation Protective Edge was justified, while only 3-4 percent said the IDF has used excessive firepower in Gaza.
They're not destroying Hamas. They've killed approx 90% civilians. It's not an attack on Hamas, it's an attack on the people of Gaza for voting for the wrong party. Just like the last full-scale massacre of Gazan civilians during 2008-2009 when approx 90% of the dead were civilians.
And numerous Israeli's have been calling for genocide:
'Israeli lawmaker’s call for genocide of Palestinians': http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-genocide-palestinians-gets-thousands-facebook-likes
'When Genocide is Permissable': http://www.vocativ.com/world/israel-world/times-israel-writer-calls-genocide-gaza/ You're just spouting Israeli propaganda. According to every international standard, Gaza has remained occupied territory.
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/8807/is-gaza-still-occupied-and-why-does-it-matter
Territory that was militarily conquered remains occupied until sovereignty supplants foreign control. As long as the Gaza Strip is non-sovereign, it is occupied, and as long as it is occupied its relationship to Israel continues to be governed by international humanitarian law (IHL), which forms part of the laws of war.
...there has been no end to Israel’s capacity to exercise “effective control” over Gaza.
In 2007, John Dugard, then UN Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, explained that the manifestations of Israel’s continuing effective control include: (a) substantial control of Gaza’s six land crossings; (b) control through military incursions, rocket attacks and sonic booms, and the declaration of areas inside the Strip as “no-go” zones where anyone who enters can be shot; (c) complete control of Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters; and (d) control of the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power and authority to define who is a “Palestinian” and who is a resident of Gaza.
And as for your use of the term 'terror tunnels', would you care to explain why you chose that phrase considering that no terrorist attacks have taken place through those tunnels? The Hamas/Al Qassam fighters have only targeted the IDF, which they are entitled to do under international law. That's not terrorism. Terrorism is deliberately targeting civilians, as the Israeli's have been doing for the past two weeks.
+ Also Hamas calls its people "armed civilians" much more easy to blame death as civilians.
In the last operation, Hamas admitted 70% of those who killed were Hamas members.
Forgive me if I have ZERO tolerance for dead terrorist, who wants to attack innocents civilians.
Here is some truth about Hamas (by an Italian reporter, who admitted children were killed by Hamas in Shifa)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/trapped-in-gaza-how-hamas-punishes-reporters-for-the-truth/story-e6frg6zo-1227007768903?nk=e05fc8d2113cf33f242c66d5b0ad051a
Last week Hamas executed ~20 people for protesting.
Hamas members are using guns against gazan people in lines for food\water.
And regarding the tunnels, are you serious? All the ceasefires Hamas broke was during attempts to attack the kibbutz around! through tunnels, well organized tunnels. Luckily they failed:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4545029,00.html
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/security-sources-say-hamas-planned-a-massive-terror-tunnels-attack-for-september-24/
And throwing rockets is not against civilians? So why do I run to the shelter once\twice a day?
Again, I DO NOT justify death of innocents in Gaza. (And spare me the "how many died in Israel vs Gaza, I know I have siren+shelter+Iron dome to protect me, and I won't feel bad for that)
And Hamas plan was a MASSIVE terror attack on new years eve. That is insane.
I believe in their right to live normal life and I wish for it with all my heart, to have their own country with government that would actually take care for it's people. Unfortunately (and I am speaking about Hamas and similar terror organizations who say it out laud; to extinct Israel) they don't recognize my right of living, not in Tel Aviv, nor anywhere..
You are naive if you think differently regarding Hamas wishes to Israelis\Jewish in general. Take a look what's going on in Europe. Israel is the last fronter in front of the terror, probably, while we are speaking radical groups in Europe, planning the next terror attack. As ISIS said "we will stop when we see our flag on the white house". I really hope we will never get there.
I guess you tend to forget that Al Qaeda who planned 9/11 is the one who supports Hamas.
BTW since it all started couple of weeks ago I don't leave my house unless I have to (means work only). I rather stay close to a shelter than get caught in the middle of the street\ride when sirens goes off.
Evilrona sirens in Isael = anxiety
Sirens in Gaza = death + targets for more bombs...
Forgive us if our hearts go to Gaza and not Israel
My heart and every reasonable heart in Israel goes to Gaza, don't get me wrong. I do believe in peace, I do believe in coexistence.
Saying that, I don't see how we can keep going negotiating with Khaled Mashal who CLEARLY say OUT LOUD that Israel should not exist.
I'd love to hear what do you think should happen if rockets keep firing\terror tunnels being build under my home. How should I deal with suicide terror attacks on buses?
I wonder what is your opinion on Hamas keeping rockets in UNRWA schools&hospitals? And Hamas in general?
As we were talking there were 2 terror attacks in Jerusalem.
Israel ceased fire this morning and got 35 rockets.
There are human beings in both areas being fucked.
That's my optimistic outlook for the day. I'm out of here.