Police abuse

muskydan

callen said:

muskydan said:

callen said:

muskydan said:

callen said:

hedonist said:

I was thinking, it's not so much about "deserve to die" in this situation (if it indeed occurred as seen). It's more about if you do X, then it's likely Y or Z will happen. Consequences for actions, no matter whom.

Right and police are seriously outnumbering this guy so their reaction allowed victims reaction. Look I get it but let's step back and maybe look if there are better ways to handle. Maybe not, I don't know just we should think about strategy cops use sometimes for certain situations. Four unarmed cops could of detained this person. Shot him in leg who knows....

Couple facts you need 2 know. Cops are not paid to fight fair. Like it or not it's A JOB and our first priority is to make sure you and your partner/fellow officers get home safe to our familes. This unique job comes with a higher standard of accountability than most professions, although many of you Would disagree with me on that I am sure. Police get fired for countless of reasons on the Job and even more during our personal life's...we step on our dicks often off-duty and the media just eats it up. I will never forget my first day on the job when my salty old field training officer told me, "congratulations kid, you Are now closer than you ever have been in your life to going to jail Than becoming the police". He was absolutely right. Seen many in my day go to the PEN justly and for complete BS.
The suggestion of shooting a suspect in the leg purposely is not an option. We are trained and required by law to use lethal force on a offender if we or a civilian are in fear for their life till the threat is eliminated which often times ends badly for offender. You state under oath in a court of law I just shot him in the leg to temporally maim him or fired a few warning shots in the air you will loose your job and go to jail most likely...It truely amazes me how people think police can dodge bullets or think the police should not shoot at anyone till fired upon, like we are some kind of fuckin super hero or something....sorry folks, it don't work That way although my childhood hero was Superman. Monday mournjng quarter backing is very easy, we all do it, but being in a 2 gun fights and 3 fights for my own service pistol has been the most stressful events in my life...time just stops and you feel like you are in the Matrix or something. Luckily for me my training kicked in and i won the battles.
Also, you would find nobody to do this thankless job if you unarmed Police officers. That just would be suicidel for American Policing. Just my 2 cents worth from a now seasoned and salty ghetto cop, take it for what it's worth.

Oh I get everything you write and agree with most. If you go back and read my past posts you will likely find I made mention of most. Now required to kill not main by law, that is new.

Now with all that said, I still believe excessive force is used at times and there is a line that is crossed.

I agree with you on excessive force. But don't forget It is not easy determining the threat level in situations Every single time having to do it in a split second. You make a mistake it can cost inocent lives. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.... But that's the job

Have empathy for having to make those tough decisions AND being an officer where everyone could potentially have a gun. Our gun culture affects so much.



So elaborate on "by law shoot to kill". New one

I don't think I ever said shoot to kill specifically, but if I did I mispoke. We are trained and protected by law to shoot a assailant if you or a citizen is in reasonable fear for their life until that threat is eliminated.

rr165892

backseatLover12 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

backseatLover12 said:

I find it interesting that this entire debate comes down to whether killing a human is OK, vs. not OK. It verifies my point in the thread about the president not being proud to be an American… This country's mentality is turning to shit.

You asked the question. I feel sure that most here is not in favor of or is happy to hear that someone was shot and killed.I'm ok with the cop defending himself. If he had to kill the guy in order to stay alive, then yes, I'm ok with that.

The argument that the cop should have shot him in the leg or arm is absurd. Guess what, you can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg.

It's not absurd, it just proves how little respect police officers and their forces have for human life. Oh, the humanity.

How many lives were saved today by cops ? (hundreds if not thousands today alone across North America).How many cops risked their own lives for total strangers today?(same as above).How many people were shot today by police?A handful at best.And of those Im sure 99% were making personal decisions that put them in that position.Its called personal responsibility and other then TamiR Rice most publicized high exposure cases of late have all been criminals and shit heads who pushed the limit.
Your painting with a wide brush again BSL,Your above statement is wrong,just plain wrong.

rr165892

backseatLover12 said:

Yeah Callen. And it's why American society continues to crumble.

Dude,your freaking me out with all your doom and gloom negativity.Crawl out of the crumbling decaying ruins of this country and society and treat yourself to some fun.Go out, laugh,love, get laid,drink a little,workout get those endorphins kickin in .smile.Cmon BSL look for some good.It will help you live longer.The sky isn't falling.

badbrains

rr165892 said:

backseatLover12 said:

Yeah Callen. And it's why American society continues to crumble.

Dude,your freaking me out with all your doom and gloom negativity.Crawl out of the crumbling decaying ruins of this country and society and treat yourself to some fun.Go out, laugh,love, get laid,drink a little,workout get those endorphins kickin in .smile.Cmon BSL look for some good.It will help you live longer.The sky isn't falling.

RR, don't take things so personal man. Not everyone lives the life you do down in Florida. You have to sometimes look at things through the eyes of others. And there are a ton of people who live gloomy lives everyday. America is an awesome country with shitty leaders. And the leaders are taking us down the wrong path. Media is helping mold this America we now have. Not the America I had in the 90's. It's like which side of the tracks do you live on.

muskydan

badbrains said:

muskydan said:

badbrains said:

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:

backseatLover12 said:

I find it interesting that this entire debate comes down to whether killing a human is OK, vs. not OK. It verifies my point in the thread about the president not being proud to be an American… This country's mentality is turning to shit.

You asked the question. I feel sure that most here is not in favor of or is happy to hear that someone was shot and killed.I'm ok with the cop defending himself. If he had to kill the guy in order to stay alive, then yes, I'm ok with that.

The argument that the cop should have shot him in the leg or arm is absurd. Guess what, you can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg.

It isn't absurd at all. You can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg IF they have a gun. Reaching toward a gun and pointing a gun at someone are not equal concepts. The point people are trying to make is that shooting to kill doesn't have to be the first response every time.

Exactly. Shooting to kill shouldn't be (and usually isn't except in the case of Tamir Rice who never had a chance) the 1st response. But there is no such thing as shooting to injure. That isn't taught to police and isn't taught to civilians in self-defense classes. If you pull out a gun, you better be prepared to shoot it. If you shoot your gun, you better be shooting to kill. Anything less can cost you your own life. This isn't Hollywood.

And Last-12 was right, BSL reduced the discussion to whether killing a human is OK or not. I think it is, based on circumstances where my life or the life of a loved one is in jeopardy. Better him than me. But the discussion could just as easily gone a different direction if a different question was asked - do actions have consequences? Of course they do. Are there some actions that have more severe consequences than others? Of course there are. And in this current case, reaching for a cop's gun has some pretty well understood and severe consequences. Rightly so. If it turns out this upstanding citizen wasn't reaching for or grabbing the cop's gun, then the cop should pay the price and accept the consequences for his actions. If the gentleman was actually going for the gun, then I am fine with the outcome. I feel badly for his family, but again, actions have consequences. That's what we should be focusing on.

Well-said as usual, jeff - though I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic with "upstanding citizen"; I hope so!

Ha, thanks. Maybe a little sarcastic.

badbrains said:

dignin said:

French Policeman Shoots Suicidal Man (in his leg) To Save His Life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs

And there u have it

Yes, snipers have a little safety and space. Find me a link to any training or protocol that is reputable that has police or citizens in a confrontation shoot to injure. I've never seen it.
Are you guys suggesting snipers be called for every response?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you over my opinion. That's all it is, my opinion. They can and should shoot to disarm, not kill. Worlds not gonna end because of my opinion.

Well you are off base if you think the police CAN shoot to disarm legally. If a cop admits to shooting to disarm a offender w/ a weapon in the USA they will be terminated and possibly face jailtime. That is a fact. Now you can have an opinion on whether you think that mandate is right or wrong cause afterall we live in a wonderful place called The United States of America. However, it sure Sounds like there are a lot of like minded people as yourself in That honorable country called France, it might be a place worth checking out.

France? Why? Never been there. Maybe you should move to Iraq and play Rambo you bigot. Anything factual out of your mouth is a flat out lie. You prob get your stories from watching the Wire, "the best cop show ever"

Back with the name calling again BB I see. You know self control is a behavior a person can learn. Your various personal attacks don't bother me one bit, but keep it up if it makes you feel good about yourself. Have a nice Day.

rr165892

Nart,I fully respect others and their respected position on issues.I take NOTHING personal.Espescially on here.There is good in everything,no matter where your from or what you have.There is always somewhere to find the positive.
In real life,when dealing with "Debbie Downers" of the world I try to get them to smile,laugh and lighten up.Have some fun.Is that so wrong?Do I have to be miserable also? I could care less about what side of the tracks peeps are from.My takes don't have dollar signs attached,nor do I judge based on ones position in life,other then to lend a hand or reach out in some way.And to the people who live gloomy lives out there,those are the ones that need to find the good the most.Dont Ya think.?

badbrains

muskydan said:

badbrains said:

muskydan said:

badbrains said:

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:

backseatLover12 said:

I find it interesting that this entire debate comes down to whether killing a human is OK, vs. not OK. It verifies my point in the thread about the president not being proud to be an American… This country's mentality is turning to shit.

You asked the question. I feel sure that most here is not in favor of or is happy to hear that someone was shot and killed.I'm ok with the cop defending himself. If he had to kill the guy in order to stay alive, then yes, I'm ok with that.

The argument that the cop should have shot him in the leg or arm is absurd. Guess what, you can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg.

It isn't absurd at all. You can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg IF they have a gun. Reaching toward a gun and pointing a gun at someone are not equal concepts. The point people are trying to make is that shooting to kill doesn't have to be the first response every time.

Exactly. Shooting to kill shouldn't be (and usually isn't except in the case of Tamir Rice who never had a chance) the 1st response. But there is no such thing as shooting to injure. That isn't taught to police and isn't taught to civilians in self-defense classes. If you pull out a gun, you better be prepared to shoot it. If you shoot your gun, you better be shooting to kill. Anything less can cost you your own life. This isn't Hollywood.

And Last-12 was right, BSL reduced the discussion to whether killing a human is OK or not. I think it is, based on circumstances where my life or the life of a loved one is in jeopardy. Better him than me. But the discussion could just as easily gone a different direction if a different question was asked - do actions have consequences? Of course they do. Are there some actions that have more severe consequences than others? Of course there are. And in this current case, reaching for a cop's gun has some pretty well understood and severe consequences. Rightly so. If it turns out this upstanding citizen wasn't reaching for or grabbing the cop's gun, then the cop should pay the price and accept the consequences for his actions. If the gentleman was actually going for the gun, then I am fine with the outcome. I feel badly for his family, but again, actions have consequences. That's what we should be focusing on.

Well-said as usual, jeff - though I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic with "upstanding citizen"; I hope so!

Ha, thanks. Maybe a little sarcastic.

badbrains said:

dignin said:

French Policeman Shoots Suicidal Man (in his leg) To Save His Life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs

And there u have it

Yes, snipers have a little safety and space. Find me a link to any training or protocol that is reputable that has police or citizens in a confrontation shoot to injure. I've never seen it.
Are you guys suggesting snipers be called for every response?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you over my opinion. That's all it is, my opinion. They can and should shoot to disarm, not kill. Worlds not gonna end because of my opinion.

Well you are off base if you think the police CAN shoot to disarm legally. If a cop admits to shooting to disarm a offender w/ a weapon in the USA they will be terminated and possibly face jailtime. That is a fact. Now you can have an opinion on whether you think that mandate is right or wrong cause afterall we live in a wonderful place called The United States of America. However, it sure Sounds like there are a lot of like minded people as yourself in That honorable country called France, it might be a place worth checking out.

France? Why? Never been there. Maybe you should move to Iraq and play Rambo you bigot. Anything factual out of your mouth is a flat out lie. You prob get your stories from watching the Wire, "the best cop show ever"

Back with the name calling again BB I see. You know self control is a behavior a person can learn. Your various personal attacks don't bother me one bit, but keep it up if it makes you feel good about yourself. Have a nice Day.

First off top cop, I've left you and your other buddy alone for sometime. You had to throw a little fucken jab which I countered with an upper cut. Sorry I TKO'd you. Stay out of the ring.

badbrains

rr165892 said:

Nart,I fully respect others and their respected position on issues.I take NOTHING personal.Espescially on here.There is good in everything,no matter where your from or what you have.There is always somewhere to find the positive.
In real life,when dealing with "Debbie Downers" of the world I try to get them to smile,laugh and lighten up.Have some fun.Is that so wrong?Do I have to be miserable also? I could care less about what side of the tracks peeps are from.My takes don't have dollar signs attached,nor do I judge based on ones position in life,other then to lend a hand or reach out in some way.And to the people who live gloomy lives out there,those are the ones that need to find the good the most.Dont Ya think.?

I've had nothing but positive discussions with you Ryan. You no doubt are a positive guy who tries to see the good. I fully get you, but I also fully get the dark gloomy side as well. Would be great if we all could be happy and cheery but that's not possible. To much shit making sure that doesn't happen.

rr165892

badbrains said:

rr165892 said:

Nart,I fully respect others and their respected position on issues.I take NOTHING personal.Espescially on here.There is good in everything,no matter where your from or what you have.There is always somewhere to find the positive.
In real life,when dealing with "Debbie Downers" of the world I try to get them to smile,laugh and lighten up.Have some fun.Is that so wrong?Do I have to be miserable also? I could care less about what side of the tracks peeps are from.My takes don't have dollar signs attached,nor do I judge based on ones position in life,other then to lend a hand or reach out in some way.And to the people who live gloomy lives out there,those are the ones that need to find the good the most.Dont Ya think.?

I've had nothing but positive discussions with you Ryan. You no doubt are a positive guy who tries to see the good. I fully get you, but I also fully get the dark gloomy side as well. Would be great if we all could be happy and cheery but that's not possible. To much shit making sure that doesn't happen.

If you let it happen.

rr165892

Also I can't help it if everyone else chooses to live in shitty states.The Florida borders are open for buisness Everyone is welcome to change their attitude by changing latitude.Let some sunshine in.

lolobugg

RR,
glad you like it there, but you couldn't pay me to live in Florida.
I think I will stay here at my altitude in the MTNS.

Last-12-Exit

Once again some of you need reminded that most cops are good cops. There are bad apples, but the majority do their job and do it well. Even ones that have to use their gun on someone. Do you think think for a second that once a cop shoots somebody their lives are ever the same again? Whether they kill the person or not they have to live with that decision for the rest of their life. Do you really think cops wake up in the morning hoping they get to shoot people?

badbrains

Last-12-Exit said:

Once again some of you need reminded that most cops are good cops. There are bad apples, but the majority do their job and do it well. Even ones that have to use their gun on someone. Do you think think for a second that once a cop shoots somebody their lives are ever the same again? Whether they kill the person or not they have to live with that decision for the rest of their life. Do you really think cops wake up in the morning hoping they get to shoot people?

Some cops yes, I do think they wake up and want to shoot someone. Scott, we're not arguing wether all cops are bad, that's just silly. But to think some cops don't get a boner from the idea of shooting someone is also silly.

Last-12-Exit

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Once again some of you need reminded that most cops are good cops. There are bad apples, but the majority do their job and do it well. Even ones that have to use their gun on someone. Do you think think for a second that once a cop shoots somebody their lives are ever the same again? Whether they kill the person or not they have to live with that decision for the rest of their life. Do you really think cops wake up in the morning hoping they get to shoot people?

Some cops yes, I do think they wake up and want to shoot someone. Scott, we're not arguing wether all cops are bad, that's just silly. But to think some cops don't get a boner from the idea of shooting someone is also silly.

Wow, and you think I'm the....

badbrains

Last-12-Exit said:

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Once again some of you need reminded that most cops are good cops. There are bad apples, but the majority do their job and do it well. Even ones that have to use their gun on someone. Do you think think for a second that once a cop shoots somebody their lives are ever the same again? Whether they kill the person or not they have to live with that decision for the rest of their life. Do you really think cops wake up in the morning hoping they get to shoot people?

Some cops yes, I do think they wake up and want to shoot someone. Scott, we're not arguing wether all cops are bad, that's just silly. But to think some cops don't get a boner from the idea of shooting someone is also silly.

Wow, and you think I'm the....

So let me get this straight. You think I'm an asshole because I think some cops wake up and want to shoot someone? How many cops in the US? You don't think there's 1 fucken bad apple in the bunch that actually thinks this? Come on Scott, really?

Remember this?

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/unarmed-amadou-diallo-shot-killed-police-1999-article-1.2095255

rr165892

lolobugg said:

RR,
glad you like it there, but you couldn't pay me to live in Florida.
I think I will stay here at my altitude in the MTNS.

Lolo,I guess that's why when I vacation I head to the hills and the snow birds head here.Where are you?

Last-12-Exit

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

badbrains said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Once again some of you need reminded that most cops are good cops. There are bad apples, but the majority do their job and do it well. Even ones that have to use their gun on someone. Do you think think for a second that once a cop shoots somebody their lives are ever the same again? Whether they kill the person or not they have to live with that decision for the rest of their life. Do you really think cops wake up in the morning hoping they get to shoot people?

Some cops yes, I do think they wake up and want to shoot someone. Scott, we're not arguing wether all cops are bad, that's just silly. But to think some cops don't get a boner from the idea of shooting someone is also silly.

Wow, and you think I'm the....

So let me get this straight. You think I'm an asshole because I think some cops wake up and want to shoot someone? How many cops in the US? You don't think there's 1 fucken bad apple in the bunch that actually thinks this? Come on Scott, really?

Remember this?

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/unarmed-amadou-diallo-shot-killed-police-1999-article-1.2095255

I do remember that. It makes me feel old.

I just said that because of your pm the other day! Had nothing to do with your post.

lolobugg

rr165892 said:

lolobugg said:

RR,
glad you like it there, but you couldn't pay me to live in Florida.
I think I will stay here at my altitude in the MTNS.

Lolo,I guess that's why when I vacation I head to the hills and the snow birds head here.Where are you?

Asheville NC
Blue Ridge Mountains
I enjoy FLA for vacations.....
lived near the gulf coast for years.
my blood is just too thick for that humidity.

rr165892

lolobugg said:

rr165892 said:

lolobugg said:

RR,
glad you like it there, but you couldn't pay me to live in Florida.
I think I will stay here at my altitude in the MTNS.

Lolo,I guess that's why when I vacation I head to the hills and the snow birds head here.Where are you?

Asheville NC
Blue Ridge Mountains
I enjoy FLA for vacations.....
lived near the gulf coast for years.
my blood is just too thick for that humidity.

Haha,those are the hills I head to.Spent many summers of my youth as a camper and counselor at Camp Pinewood in Hendersonville.We still head up to Waynesville/Transylvania area for hiking the waterfalls and of course up to Boone and Beech Mtn for some skiing.I affectionately refer to Ashville as the Portland of the south.
I actually picked up some land just south of the NC border in North west GA about 45 min from Natahalia(sp).Hope to someday put a little Family cabin up there.Just to get away.
I amend my earlier statement you don't live in a shitty place.In fact was discussing the merit of Wilmington as a Retirement destination someday.Still some great waterfront available on the NC coast.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

muskydan said:

badbrains said:

muskydan said:

badbrains said:

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:

backseatLover12 said:

I find it interesting that this entire debate comes down to whether killing a human is OK, vs. not OK. It verifies my point in the thread about the president not being proud to be an American… This country's mentality is turning to shit.

You asked the question. I feel sure that most here is not in favor of or is happy to hear that someone was shot and killed.I'm ok with the cop defending himself. If he had to kill the guy in order to stay alive, then yes, I'm ok with that.

The argument that the cop should have shot him in the leg or arm is absurd. Guess what, you can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg.

It isn't absurd at all. You can still be shot by someone with a bullet in their leg IF they have a gun. Reaching toward a gun and pointing a gun at someone are not equal concepts. The point people are trying to make is that shooting to kill doesn't have to be the first response every time.

Exactly. Shooting to kill shouldn't be (and usually isn't except in the case of Tamir Rice who never had a chance) the 1st response. But there is no such thing as shooting to injure. That isn't taught to police and isn't taught to civilians in self-defense classes. If you pull out a gun, you better be prepared to shoot it. If you shoot your gun, you better be shooting to kill. Anything less can cost you your own life. This isn't Hollywood.

And Last-12 was right, BSL reduced the discussion to whether killing a human is OK or not. I think it is, based on circumstances where my life or the life of a loved one is in jeopardy. Better him than me. But the discussion could just as easily gone a different direction if a different question was asked - do actions have consequences? Of course they do. Are there some actions that have more severe consequences than others? Of course there are. And in this current case, reaching for a cop's gun has some pretty well understood and severe consequences. Rightly so. If it turns out this upstanding citizen wasn't reaching for or grabbing the cop's gun, then the cop should pay the price and accept the consequences for his actions. If the gentleman was actually going for the gun, then I am fine with the outcome. I feel badly for his family, but again, actions have consequences. That's what we should be focusing on.

Well-said as usual, jeff - though I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic with "upstanding citizen"; I hope so!

Ha, thanks. Maybe a little sarcastic.

badbrains said:

dignin said:

French Policeman Shoots Suicidal Man (in his leg) To Save His Life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs

And there u have it

Yes, snipers have a little safety and space. Find me a link to any training or protocol that is reputable that has police or citizens in a confrontation shoot to injure. I've never seen it.
Are you guys suggesting snipers be called for every response?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you over my opinion. That's all it is, my opinion. They can and should shoot to disarm, not kill. Worlds not gonna end because of my opinion.

Well you are off base if you think the police CAN shoot to disarm legally. If a cop admits to shooting to disarm a offender w/ a weapon in the USA they will be terminated and possibly face jailtime. That is a fact. Now you can have an opinion on whether you think that mandate is right or wrong cause afterall we live in a wonderful place called The United States of America. However, it sure Sounds like there are a lot of like minded people as yourself in That honorable country called France, it might be a place worth checking out.

France? Why? Never been there. Maybe you should move to Iraq and play Rambo you bigot. Anything factual out of your mouth is a flat out lie. You prob get your stories from watching the Wire, "the best cop show ever"

Back with the name calling again BB I see. You know self control is a behavior a person can learn. Your various personal attacks don't bother me one bit, but keep it up if it makes you feel good about yourself. Have a nice Day.

I give you credit Dan.
Why on Earth you keep coming back here, and dealing with these NO GOOD Liberals, I will never understand.

But I give you credit.
You never back down.
Good for you!!!!!!!

And don't get all bent out of shape you Liberals.
You know I am just having a little fun with ya.