Is anyone interesting in discussing this, or just arguing a point to win?
Let's strip away everything contextual about this: the officer's experience, the victim's race and warrants, social media. Take it all away.
Look at the raw facts of the case:
An officer - apparently accidentally - mistook a lethal weapon for a non-lethal one and shot someone who by rights she didn't think needed to be shot. You're left with a very poorly trained or poorly performing officer and a dead 20 year old who didn't need to be killed. That should piss you off, and outrage you because this is precisely the opposite of what we want in police officers. There are certain professions where some mistakes can't be tolerated, if only because the stakes are usually very high. Airline pilots, doctors, and people who carry deadly weapons as tools of the trade. Cops do NOT have a safe or easy job. They go into shitty situations and have lots of stress and tough calls to make. But until they are drafted involuntarily, it is a position that they choose to be in. If its a voluntary choice, then they need to be expected to be held to a higher standard of precision. In short, you cannot make a mistake like the one made here. Let's all agree on that.
Let's agree that this cop shouldn't have a job anymore (she doesn't), at minimum. Let's also agree that, if you review Minnesota's applicable laws on negligent homicide, it probably warrants a criminal investigation into her conduct. I've looked at the statute, and I can make a case that what we know to be true from this video COULD meet the elements of a negligent homicide/manslaughter etc. I make no guess as to whether charges will be filed or whether she could be convicted, but suffice it to say, an investigation is coming and justified.
Now, add in the mountain of context:
Daunte Wright had a criminal record, or at least, charges against him and warrants. He had possessed a weapon before. He probably wasn't, at all times in his life, a law abiding citizen. But in America, even murderers and pedophiles cannot be executed or killed outside of a state-sanctioned execution unless the officer's use of deadly force is authorized under state law. Again, looking at Minnesota's use-of-force statute, which was just revised in 2020 and applying it to the facts we know in this case, she simply wasn't authorized to use deadly force here.
Daunte Wright was an African-American. The officer was white. Daunte Wright was attempting to flee, and there's no evidence that he was reaching for a gun. You can reasonably infer that from the video and the officer's statements.
Meanwhile, about 10 miles away, the biggest trial in Minnesota history - and perhaps the biggest trial involving an officer charged with murder in modern US history - was in its 3rd week. There, the white officer was charged with killing an African-American man who also had a criminal history, but who, like Daunte Wright, probably wasn't a threat to the officer, or at least in a way that would warrant lethal force.
So...
We can debate all day about whether Lebron James is correct about black people being hunted or not, or semantically about whether Daunte Wright was a saint or not, or who said what or whether Trump is going to prove us all wrong. Let's all take a deep breath a set our political views aside for a second and agree on what we all should be able to agree on.
The bare facts of this killing should outrage you from a public safety standpoint. Cops are humans but their margin for error has to be much, much smaller than this. Let's agree on that.
Let's all also agree that whatever our politics are, it might understandable why people are outraged by Daunte Wright's death, if only because the actors all look so familiar, and the facts of the killing are arguably just as egregious as the Floyd case or the Philando Castile case or the Eric Garner case or the Breonna Taylor case. A black victim killed by an officer who was in most cases either white or a different color than the victim. If you're white and having a hard time agreeing with that statement, consider at least, that you have not lived the black experience in America. There are reams of studies and data that prove your white experience and your relationship with the criminal justice system is not the same as a person of colors. Let's all agree that its possible that persons of color might have had different experiences in their lives with law enforcement.
Are those positions so crazy?
Apologies for the novel. But the bickering about nitpicky little points seemed very beside the issue, when this case above many others seems so ripe for agreement that what the cop did - mistakenly or not - was really bad, perhaps criminally bad.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Prohibitions generally; exceptions. (a) A person shall not drive or operate any motor vehicle with:
(2) any objects suspended between the driver and the windshield
There should be a whole division that deals with minor infractions that don’t carry lethal weapons and can’t issue any other citations than the one being stopped for.
I hear you but you never know who you’re pulling over. Plenty of examples of very minor traffic stops resulting in cops getting shot at. I recently got pulled over for having a mask hanging on the rear view mirror. I never keep it there I just happened to hang it up in between some errands.
Would people be so worried and high stress if they knew that traffic cops were only responsible for traffic and other vehicle infractions and couldn’t expand their scope beyond what they are pulling someone over for? Probably not. I mean let’s say I have a trash bag of weed in my trunk and I get pulled over for expired tags and know that I can only get a ticket for a traffic violation, tags, etc. I’m not gonna have an oh shot moment, I’m gonna take my ticket and go.
The idea definitely makes sense. But what if they don’t have a license? Getting pulled over without a license or a suspended license could get stressful. What if the vehicle is stolen? I understand the thought behind this but I just don’t think it’s 100% feasible, especially in bigger cities.
I own a gun and like blunts. Should I be murdered for an air freshener hanging from my rearview mirror?
The reason this pisses me off so much is because a similar scenario happened to me. Pulled over in MN for an air freshener. One of those stupid little pine trees.
I'm driving home from Des Moines to Minneapolis. I got my car washed in Iowa. They put the air freshener there, being unfamiliar with MN air freshener laws. I was a recent transplant, also unfamiliar with MN air freshener law.
Cop comes up to the car and the air freshener was an obvious excuse to stick his nose in my car and start poking around. He starts asking questions, trying find something, anything to pin on me. Unnecessarily and intentionally trying to get me riled up.
I'm professional, and was wearing a suit at the time. Being fresh out of college, they question me for being too young to be so professional. So many questions: who are you, where are you going, anything in the car, and so on.
It was never about the air freshener. It was about harassing someone just trying to get home from work.
I'd be pissed too if I were you in that scenario. And nobody think he should've been shot. But let's throw out the notion that it was an accidental discharge, and go with the popular narrative around here that cops hunt black people and want to murder them. And as a lot of people say, even if you comply, you can still get killed. Alright, well then if you don't comply, you're likely going to get killed. So why resist and put yourself at the mercy of racist cops? I don't know. It's horrible that he shot like that and the cop should face major consequences. But while you both got pulled for air-fresheners (which is dumb in it's own right), you didn't have an active warrant that would require an arrest. And if you did, I doubt you're trying to break from the handcuffs and speed away.
Literally no one has said that around here. What has been said over and over is that there is racism inherent in our policing system and that for some reason(racism) cops are more scared of their lives at a traffic stop with People of Color than they are with white mass shooters. People the. Bend over backwards to come up with any theory they can that doesn’t point to the issue, which is systemic racism and bad policing. Then obfuscate the facts with made up anecdotes about hunting people...
That's fair enough, I attributed a LeBron James quote to this place based on a similar sentiments, which I shouldn't do.
Is that not true? Are you that fucking blind? To inherent, systemic racism through all levels of ‘Murican society? From birth to death, no less.
Is it true that black people are, as James says here, "literally hunted EVERYDAY/EVERYTIME we step foot outside the comfort of our homes!"? No, it's not.
Do you not think that every time a black person leaves their home, they wonder if they'll come home alive?
No, I don't.
I would completely agree. I will also add that does not mean there are not bad cops, that things aren't bad, that there isn't profiling or stereotyping going on. And I think its dangerous to keep playing that narrative. I remember when Rayshard Brooks was killed the coverage of it was ridiculous. I think it was CNN that had a guest on that said Rayshard fought back and used the taser because he knew if he got into that cop car they would take him out and murder him. So he did the only thing he could do and was right to do it. Then the TV anchor agreed with the guest! That level of hate is dangerous, and is going ot get more young black people killed when they keep being told cops are out there to murder them, so fight back.
Not all young black men are told to fight back (there’s no way for you to know that they are all told that). Many are told to comply....I’ll say it again, speak with a variety of blacks before making that assumption.
but....didn't you say a few posts back that all cops are taught to be aggressive assholes based on a few family members' assertions?
I did say that based on what police officers have told me (even one who posted here awhile ago said it’s an attitude thing that bothered him so bad he quit and went to work for a community college). I truly believe it’s part of the universal training no matter where they live. I’m not sure mace has ever spoken to a black person (at least I don’t believe he’s ever stated speaking to blacks) so how could he know they’re all told to fight. I’m not changing my statement about cops because I believe that is what all cops are taught based on what I know and have seen, where I know for a fact that all blacks aren’t told to fight.
And if you’re being accurate I never said aggressive.
well I don't generally tell people on a forum how many non-whites I've spoken to, I can't speak for mace.
All I'm saying is you are making a general assertion based on your own anecdotal evidence and generalizing that to an entire country, where mace is doing the same thing, and you are claiming you can and he can't. that's all I'm pointing out.
Obviously this is not going to go down well but here goes...remember I’m the one that unfortunately remembers most things I’ve read (I don’t hunt for previous posts) and you’re the one that remembers things more from in person.
I once defended the Greek guy with all the pj info (sorry I’m horrible at names) and you replied that he was a big boy and could stick up for himself (not word for word I’m sure) so mace is a big boy and can stick up for himself. Next, I didn’t ask if you ever spoke to non whites, I was saying I didn’t know if mace did or not but thanks (I guess) for your answer and what’s the problem with admitting that I’ve spoken to many blacks for 30 years? Maybe I’m proud of that and can help people see things differently. And finally, what is your deal with me? Second time asking because I’ve never directed anything to you until you’ve corrected me or made me feel bad. I told you I’d leave you alone and I have except once I agreed with you...god forbid won’t happen again
it's an open forum. people respond to me I haven't directed anything to, I do the same. everyone here does that. when you responded to mace, was it because he specifically tagged you? I'm guessing not. you responded to him because you had something to say.
I have nothing against you. I don't know you. Just because I respectfully disagree with someone doesn't mean I have a "deal" with them.
I'm not sure how I could have stated what I did more politely. how you took that/your reaction is your responsibility. I specifically did that knowing your history of having issues with me.
I agree with people I don't like, I disagree with people I do like, and vice versa. my comments never (ok, rarely) have anything to do with the poster, just the comment. Just ask dignin, for example. we don't get along but I agree with him often. he doesn't with me, but that's fine. I can handle it.
Been around long enough and read enough of your posts to know you like to explain other people’s postings when it’s not necessary. I consider all of us intelligent enough to understand each other and if not to ask questions ourselves. I’m not sure how other people feel about that but I find it offensive at times, not polite. You’re like the forum expert and I don’t necessarily mean that in a bad way but sometimes you need to realize that people get highly emotional about certain subjects and post with those emotions not following all the forum rules, just like your tagging comment. The first time I posted you misconstrued the whole thing. The second time you “corrected” me for not understanding what the poster was saying when I clearly understood them. You bashed me for apologizing privately and you were right so I did it openly on here. I love this forum mostly because it’s sharing with people who have so much in common (not just the music but social issues). Ok you say it’s not personal so I’ll accept that. I don’t care who agrees or disagrees with me because I learn more about the subject and myself. I’ve clearly refrained from commenting on your posts unless I agree with you to avoid these issues. You don’t even give people enough time to correct themselves before you do it for them. You may think you don’t do that but I’ve noticed you do that to many of us. I’ll except that’s who you are and move on.
What’s sad about our situation is I usually always agree with your responses but I’m apprehensive about saying so.
I own a gun and like blunts. Should I be murdered for an air freshener hanging from my rearview mirror?
The reason this pisses me off so much is because a similar scenario happened to me. Pulled over in MN for an air freshener. One of those stupid little pine trees.
I'm driving home from Des Moines to Minneapolis. I got my car washed in Iowa. They put the air freshener there, being unfamiliar with MN air freshener laws. I was a recent transplant, also unfamiliar with MN air freshener law.
Cop comes up to the car and the air freshener was an obvious excuse to stick his nose in my car and start poking around. He starts asking questions, trying find something, anything to pin on me. Unnecessarily and intentionally trying to get me riled up.
I'm professional, and was wearing a suit at the time. Being fresh out of college, they question me for being too young to be so professional. So many questions: who are you, where are you going, anything in the car, and so on.
It was never about the air freshener. It was about harassing someone just trying to get home from work.
I'd be pissed too if I were you in that scenario. And nobody think he should've been shot. But let's throw out the notion that it was an accidental discharge, and go with the popular narrative around here that cops hunt black people and want to murder them. And as a lot of people say, even if you comply, you can still get killed. Alright, well then if you don't comply, you're likely going to get killed. So why resist and put yourself at the mercy of racist cops? I don't know. It's horrible that he shot like that and the cop should face major consequences. But while you both got pulled for air-fresheners (which is dumb in it's own right), you didn't have an active warrant that would require an arrest. And if you did, I doubt you're trying to break from the handcuffs and speed away.
Literally no one has said that around here. What has been said over and over is that there is racism inherent in our policing system and that for some reason(racism) cops are more scared of their lives at a traffic stop with People of Color than they are with white mass shooters. People the. Bend over backwards to come up with any theory they can that doesn’t point to the issue, which is systemic racism and bad policing. Then obfuscate the facts with made up anecdotes about hunting people...
That's fair enough, I attributed a LeBron James quote to this place based on a similar sentiments, which I shouldn't do.
Is that not true? Are you that fucking blind? To inherent, systemic racism through all levels of ‘Murican society? From birth to death, no less.
Is it true that black people are, as James says here, "literally hunted EVERYDAY/EVERYTIME we step foot outside the comfort of our homes!"? No, it's not.
Do you not think that every time a black person leaves their home, they wonder if they'll come home alive?
No, I don't.
I would completely agree. I will also add that does not mean there are not bad cops, that things aren't bad, that there isn't profiling or stereotyping going on. And I think its dangerous to keep playing that narrative. I remember when Rayshard Brooks was killed the coverage of it was ridiculous. I think it was CNN that had a guest on that said Rayshard fought back and used the taser because he knew if he got into that cop car they would take him out and murder him. So he did the only thing he could do and was right to do it. Then the TV anchor agreed with the guest! That level of hate is dangerous, and is going ot get more young black people killed when they keep being told cops are out there to murder them, so fight back.
Not all young black men are told to fight back (there’s no way for you to know that they are all told that). Many are told to comply....I’ll say it again, speak with a variety of blacks before making that assumption.
but....didn't you say a few posts back that all cops are taught to be aggressive assholes based on a few family members' assertions?
I did say that based on what police officers have told me (even one who posted here awhile ago said it’s an attitude thing that bothered him so bad he quit and went to work for a community college). I truly believe it’s part of the universal training no matter where they live. I’m not sure mace has ever spoken to a black person (at least I don’t believe he’s ever stated speaking to blacks) so how could he know they’re all told to fight. I’m not changing my statement about cops because I believe that is what all cops are taught based on what I know and have seen, where I know for a fact that all blacks aren’t told to fight.
And if you’re being accurate I never said aggressive.
well I don't generally tell people on a forum how many non-whites I've spoken to, I can't speak for mace.
All I'm saying is you are making a general assertion based on your own anecdotal evidence and generalizing that to an entire country, where mace is doing the same thing, and you are claiming you can and he can't. that's all I'm pointing out.
Obviously this is not going to go down well but here goes...remember I’m the one that unfortunately remembers most things I’ve read (I don’t hunt for previous posts) and you’re the one that remembers things more from in person.
I once defended the Greek guy with all the pj info (sorry I’m horrible at names) and you replied that he was a big boy and could stick up for himself (not word for word I’m sure) so mace is a big boy and can stick up for himself. Next, I didn’t ask if you ever spoke to non whites, I was saying I didn’t know if mace did or not but thanks (I guess) for your answer and what’s the problem with admitting that I’ve spoken to many blacks for 30 years? Maybe I’m proud of that and can help people see things differently. And finally, what is your deal with me? Second time asking because I’ve never directed anything to you until you’ve corrected me or made me feel bad. I told you I’d leave you alone and I have except once I agreed with you...god forbid won’t happen again
it's an open forum. people respond to me I haven't directed anything to, I do the same. everyone here does that. when you responded to mace, was it because he specifically tagged you? I'm guessing not. you responded to him because you had something to say.
I have nothing against you. I don't know you. Just because I respectfully disagree with someone doesn't mean I have a "deal" with them.
I'm not sure how I could have stated what I did more politely. how you took that/your reaction is your responsibility. I specifically did that knowing your history of having issues with me.
I agree with people I don't like, I disagree with people I do like, and vice versa. my comments never (ok, rarely) have anything to do with the poster, just the comment. Just ask dignin, for example. we don't get along but I agree with him often. he doesn't with me, but that's fine. I can handle it.
Take my silence as agreement, which is more often then not. We have way more in common than not.
I own a gun and like blunts. Should I be murdered for an air freshener hanging from my rearview mirror?
The reason this pisses me off so much is because a similar scenario happened to me. Pulled over in MN for an air freshener. One of those stupid little pine trees.
I'm driving home from Des Moines to Minneapolis. I got my car washed in Iowa. They put the air freshener there, being unfamiliar with MN air freshener laws. I was a recent transplant, also unfamiliar with MN air freshener law.
Cop comes up to the car and the air freshener was an obvious excuse to stick his nose in my car and start poking around. He starts asking questions, trying find something, anything to pin on me. Unnecessarily and intentionally trying to get me riled up.
I'm professional, and was wearing a suit at the time. Being fresh out of college, they question me for being too young to be so professional. So many questions: who are you, where are you going, anything in the car, and so on.
It was never about the air freshener. It was about harassing someone just trying to get home from work.
I'd be pissed too if I were you in that scenario. And nobody think he should've been shot. But let's throw out the notion that it was an accidental discharge, and go with the popular narrative around here that cops hunt black people and want to murder them. And as a lot of people say, even if you comply, you can still get killed. Alright, well then if you don't comply, you're likely going to get killed. So why resist and put yourself at the mercy of racist cops? I don't know. It's horrible that he shot like that and the cop should face major consequences. But while you both got pulled for air-fresheners (which is dumb in it's own right), you didn't have an active warrant that would require an arrest. And if you did, I doubt you're trying to break from the handcuffs and speed away.
Literally no one has said that around here. What has been said over and over is that there is racism inherent in our policing system and that for some reason(racism) cops are more scared of their lives at a traffic stop with People of Color than they are with white mass shooters. People the. Bend over backwards to come up with any theory they can that doesn’t point to the issue, which is systemic racism and bad policing. Then obfuscate the facts with made up anecdotes about hunting people...
That's fair enough, I attributed a LeBron James quote to this place based on a similar sentiments, which I shouldn't do.
Is that not true? Are you that fucking blind? To inherent, systemic racism through all levels of ‘Murican society? From birth to death, no less.
Is it true that black people are, as James says here, "literally hunted EVERYDAY/EVERYTIME we step foot outside the comfort of our homes!"? No, it's not.
Do you not think that every time a black person leaves their home, they wonder if they'll come home alive?
No, I don't.
I would completely agree. I will also add that does not mean there are not bad cops, that things aren't bad, that there isn't profiling or stereotyping going on. And I think its dangerous to keep playing that narrative. I remember when Rayshard Brooks was killed the coverage of it was ridiculous. I think it was CNN that had a guest on that said Rayshard fought back and used the taser because he knew if he got into that cop car they would take him out and murder him. So he did the only thing he could do and was right to do it. Then the TV anchor agreed with the guest! That level of hate is dangerous, and is going ot get more young black people killed when they keep being told cops are out there to murder them, so fight back.
Not all young black men are told to fight back (there’s no way for you to know that they are all told that). Many are told to comply....I’ll say it again, speak with a variety of blacks before making that assumption.
but....didn't you say a few posts back that all cops are taught to be aggressive assholes based on a few family members' assertions?
I did say that based on what police officers have told me (even one who posted here awhile ago said it’s an attitude thing that bothered him so bad he quit and went to work for a community college). I truly believe it’s part of the universal training no matter where they live. I’m not sure mace has ever spoken to a black person (at least I don’t believe he’s ever stated speaking to blacks) so how could he know they’re all told to fight. I’m not changing my statement about cops because I believe that is what all cops are taught based on what I know and have seen, where I know for a fact that all blacks aren’t told to fight.
And if you’re being accurate I never said aggressive.
well I don't generally tell people on a forum how many non-whites I've spoken to, I can't speak for mace.
All I'm saying is you are making a general assertion based on your own anecdotal evidence and generalizing that to an entire country, where mace is doing the same thing, and you are claiming you can and he can't. that's all I'm pointing out.
Obviously this is not going to go down well but here goes...remember I’m the one that unfortunately remembers most things I’ve read (I don’t hunt for previous posts) and you’re the one that remembers things more from in person.
I once defended the Greek guy with all the pj info (sorry I’m horrible at names) and you replied that he was a big boy and could stick up for himself (not word for word I’m sure) so mace is a big boy and can stick up for himself. Next, I didn’t ask if you ever spoke to non whites, I was saying I didn’t know if mace did or not but thanks (I guess) for your answer and what’s the problem with admitting that I’ve spoken to many blacks for 30 years? Maybe I’m proud of that and can help people see things differently. And finally, what is your deal with me? Second time asking because I’ve never directed anything to you until you’ve corrected me or made me feel bad. I told you I’d leave you alone and I have except once I agreed with you...god forbid won’t happen again
it's an open forum. people respond to me I haven't directed anything to, I do the same. everyone here does that. when you responded to mace, was it because he specifically tagged you? I'm guessing not. you responded to him because you had something to say.
I have nothing against you. I don't know you. Just because I respectfully disagree with someone doesn't mean I have a "deal" with them.
I'm not sure how I could have stated what I did more politely. how you took that/your reaction is your responsibility. I specifically did that knowing your history of having issues with me.
I agree with people I don't like, I disagree with people I do like, and vice versa. my comments never (ok, rarely) have anything to do with the poster, just the comment. Just ask dignin, for example. we don't get along but I agree with him often. he doesn't with me, but that's fine. I can handle it.
Been around long enough and read enough of your posts to know you like to explain other people’s postings when it’s not necessary. I consider all of us intelligent enough to understand each other and if not to ask questions ourselves. I’m not sure how other people feel about that but I find it offensive at times, not polite. You’re like the forum expert and I don’t necessarily mean that in a bad way but sometimes you need to realize that people get highly emotional about certain subjects and post with those emotions not following all the forum rules, just like your tagging comment. The first time I posted you misconstrued the whole thing. The second time you “corrected” me for not understanding what the poster was saying when I clearly understood them. You bashed me for apologizing privately and you were right so I did it openly on here. I love this forum mostly because it’s sharing with people who have so much in common (not just the music but social issues). Ok you say it’s not personal so I’ll accept that. I don’t care who agrees or disagrees with me because I learn more about the subject and myself. I’ve clearly refrained from commenting on your posts unless I agree with you to avoid these issues. You don’t even give people enough time to correct themselves before you do it for them. You may think you don’t do that but I’ve noticed you do that to many of us. I’ll except that’s who you are and move on.
What’s sad about our situation is I usually always agree with your responses but I’m apprehensive about saying so.
forum expert? a couple weeks ago someone referred to me as "the guy who always posts stupid shit". perspectives are interesting.
I'm not going to address all of this again as it's been done and explained before, and frankly, no one here wants to read this. I'll just say this, as politely as I can: if every time I make a comment you are going to take it this personally, then just put me on ignore.
I own a gun and like blunts. Should I be murdered for an air freshener hanging from my rearview mirror?
The reason this pisses me off so much is because a similar scenario happened to me. Pulled over in MN for an air freshener. One of those stupid little pine trees.
I'm driving home from Des Moines to Minneapolis. I got my car washed in Iowa. They put the air freshener there, being unfamiliar with MN air freshener laws. I was a recent transplant, also unfamiliar with MN air freshener law.
Cop comes up to the car and the air freshener was an obvious excuse to stick his nose in my car and start poking around. He starts asking questions, trying find something, anything to pin on me. Unnecessarily and intentionally trying to get me riled up.
I'm professional, and was wearing a suit at the time. Being fresh out of college, they question me for being too young to be so professional. So many questions: who are you, where are you going, anything in the car, and so on.
It was never about the air freshener. It was about harassing someone just trying to get home from work.
I'd be pissed too if I were you in that scenario. And nobody think he should've been shot. But let's throw out the notion that it was an accidental discharge, and go with the popular narrative around here that cops hunt black people and want to murder them. And as a lot of people say, even if you comply, you can still get killed. Alright, well then if you don't comply, you're likely going to get killed. So why resist and put yourself at the mercy of racist cops? I don't know. It's horrible that he shot like that and the cop should face major consequences. But while you both got pulled for air-fresheners (which is dumb in it's own right), you didn't have an active warrant that would require an arrest. And if you did, I doubt you're trying to break from the handcuffs and speed away.
Literally no one has said that around here. What has been said over and over is that there is racism inherent in our policing system and that for some reason(racism) cops are more scared of their lives at a traffic stop with People of Color than they are with white mass shooters. People the. Bend over backwards to come up with any theory they can that doesn’t point to the issue, which is systemic racism and bad policing. Then obfuscate the facts with made up anecdotes about hunting people...
That's fair enough, I attributed a LeBron James quote to this place based on a similar sentiments, which I shouldn't do.
Is that not true? Are you that fucking blind? To inherent, systemic racism through all levels of ‘Murican society? From birth to death, no less.
Is it true that black people are, as James says here, "literally hunted EVERYDAY/EVERYTIME we step foot outside the comfort of our homes!"? No, it's not.
Do you not think that every time a black person leaves their home, they wonder if they'll come home alive?
No, I don't.
I would completely agree. I will also add that does not mean there are not bad cops, that things aren't bad, that there isn't profiling or stereotyping going on. And I think its dangerous to keep playing that narrative. I remember when Rayshard Brooks was killed the coverage of it was ridiculous. I think it was CNN that had a guest on that said Rayshard fought back and used the taser because he knew if he got into that cop car they would take him out and murder him. So he did the only thing he could do and was right to do it. Then the TV anchor agreed with the guest! That level of hate is dangerous, and is going ot get more young black people killed when they keep being told cops are out there to murder them, so fight back.
Not all young black men are told to fight back (there’s no way for you to know that they are all told that). Many are told to comply....I’ll say it again, speak with a variety of blacks before making that assumption.
but....didn't you say a few posts back that all cops are taught to be aggressive assholes based on a few family members' assertions?
I did say that based on what police officers have told me (even one who posted here awhile ago said it’s an attitude thing that bothered him so bad he quit and went to work for a community college). I truly believe it’s part of the universal training no matter where they live. I’m not sure mace has ever spoken to a black person (at least I don’t believe he’s ever stated speaking to blacks) so how could he know they’re all told to fight. I’m not changing my statement about cops because I believe that is what all cops are taught based on what I know and have seen, where I know for a fact that all blacks aren’t told to fight.
And if you’re being accurate I never said aggressive.
well I don't generally tell people on a forum how many non-whites I've spoken to, I can't speak for mace.
All I'm saying is you are making a general assertion based on your own anecdotal evidence and generalizing that to an entire country, where mace is doing the same thing, and you are claiming you can and he can't. that's all I'm pointing out.
Obviously this is not going to go down well but here goes...remember I’m the one that unfortunately remembers most things I’ve read (I don’t hunt for previous posts) and you’re the one that remembers things more from in person.
I once defended the Greek guy with all the pj info (sorry I’m horrible at names) and you replied that he was a big boy and could stick up for himself (not word for word I’m sure) so mace is a big boy and can stick up for himself. Next, I didn’t ask if you ever spoke to non whites, I was saying I didn’t know if mace did or not but thanks (I guess) for your answer and what’s the problem with admitting that I’ve spoken to many blacks for 30 years? Maybe I’m proud of that and can help people see things differently. And finally, what is your deal with me? Second time asking because I’ve never directed anything to you until you’ve corrected me or made me feel bad. I told you I’d leave you alone and I have except once I agreed with you...god forbid won’t happen again
it's an open forum. people respond to me I haven't directed anything to, I do the same. everyone here does that. when you responded to mace, was it because he specifically tagged you? I'm guessing not. you responded to him because you had something to say.
I have nothing against you. I don't know you. Just because I respectfully disagree with someone doesn't mean I have a "deal" with them.
I'm not sure how I could have stated what I did more politely. how you took that/your reaction is your responsibility. I specifically did that knowing your history of having issues with me.
I agree with people I don't like, I disagree with people I do like, and vice versa. my comments never (ok, rarely) have anything to do with the poster, just the comment. Just ask dignin, for example. we don't get along but I agree with him often. he doesn't with me, but that's fine. I can handle it.
Been around long enough and read enough of your posts to know you like to explain other people’s postings when it’s not necessary. I consider all of us intelligent enough to understand each other and if not to ask questions ourselves. I’m not sure how other people feel about that but I find it offensive at times, not polite. You’re like the forum expert and I don’t necessarily mean that in a bad way but sometimes you need to realize that people get highly emotional about certain subjects and post with those emotions not following all the forum rules, just like your tagging comment. The first time I posted you misconstrued the whole thing. The second time you “corrected” me for not understanding what the poster was saying when I clearly understood them. You bashed me for apologizing privately and you were right so I did it openly on here. I love this forum mostly because it’s sharing with people who have so much in common (not just the music but social issues). Ok you say it’s not personal so I’ll accept that. I don’t care who agrees or disagrees with me because I learn more about the subject and myself. I’ve clearly refrained from commenting on your posts unless I agree with you to avoid these issues. You don’t even give people enough time to correct themselves before you do it for them. You may think you don’t do that but I’ve noticed you do that to many of us. I’ll except that’s who you are and move on.
What’s sad about our situation is I usually always agree with your responses but I’m apprehensive about saying so.
forum expert? a couple weeks ago someone referred to me as "the guy who always posts stupid shit". perspectives are interesting.
I'm not going to address all of this again as it's been done and explained before, and frankly, no one here wants to read this. I'll just say this, as politely as I can: if every time I make a comment you are going to take it this personally, then just put me on ignore.
So funny, you always have to have the last word too. And there you go “knowing” that no one wants to read this. Unbelievable how people don’t see themselves as others do. Done and done
Prohibitions generally; exceptions. (a) A person shall not drive or operate any motor vehicle with:
(2) any objects suspended between the driver and the windshield
There should be a whole division that deals with minor infractions that don’t carry lethal weapons and can’t issue any other citations than the one being stopped for.
I hear you but you never know who you’re pulling over. Plenty of examples of very minor traffic stops resulting in cops getting shot at. I recently got pulled over for having a mask hanging on the rear view mirror. I never keep it there I just happened to hang it up in between some errands.
Would people be so worried and high stress if they knew that traffic cops were only responsible for traffic and other vehicle infractions and couldn’t expand their scope beyond what they are pulling someone over for? Probably not. I mean let’s say I have a trash bag of weed in my trunk and I get pulled over for expired tags and know that I can only get a ticket for a traffic violation, tags, etc. I’m not gonna have an oh shot moment, I’m gonna take my ticket and go.
The idea definitely makes sense. But what if they don’t have a license? Getting pulled over without a license or a suspended license could get stressful. What if the vehicle is stolen? I understand the thought behind this but I just don’t think it’s 100% feasible, especially in bigger cities.
I definitely think it's less simple than some of us (myself included) would like it to be. The one thing I know won't work is "do nothing" and so far it's a problem that we're simply admiring. Lots of things are on my mind but I don't really know what to do.
What kind of people desire to become cops (Kyle Rittenhouse) and why (the power and "hunt" as opposed to protecting and serving?)
Do we need the "armed cop" culture/presence? Do other countries have the same culture? But how can you change that and continue to have the same protections? One example in the Twin Cities is cops doing "fare checks" on the light-rail-transit lines (which are honor system). It's been suggested that this should be done by unarmed people but I don't actually think they'd successfully fine most people; most people would just shove them (or worse) and move on. My solution is to just let it go and live with the fact that some people will free ride. But the outrage amongst suburbanites who put mannequins in the HOV lane would be unreal.
The USA incarcerates at an alarming rate. Is that part of what raises the temperature when cops interact with people? Hopefully, as we decriminalize marijuana, that will be mitigated some.
Are there examples in other places that can be emulated?
I know this isn't comforting to people who legitimately think any interaction can result in death, but I think the culture change we need is going have to come over the long haul.
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I own a gun and like blunts. Should I be murdered for an air freshener hanging from my rearview mirror?
The reason this pisses me off so much is because a similar scenario happened to me. Pulled over in MN for an air freshener. One of those stupid little pine trees.
I'm driving home from Des Moines to Minneapolis. I got my car washed in Iowa. They put the air freshener there, being unfamiliar with MN air freshener laws. I was a recent transplant, also unfamiliar with MN air freshener law.
Cop comes up to the car and the air freshener was an obvious excuse to stick his nose in my car and start poking around. He starts asking questions, trying find something, anything to pin on me. Unnecessarily and intentionally trying to get me riled up.
I'm professional, and was wearing a suit at the time. Being fresh out of college, they question me for being too young to be so professional. So many questions: who are you, where are you going, anything in the car, and so on.
It was never about the air freshener. It was about harassing someone just trying to get home from work.
I'd be pissed too if I were you in that scenario. And nobody think he should've been shot. But let's throw out the notion that it was an accidental discharge, and go with the popular narrative around here that cops hunt black people and want to murder them. And as a lot of people say, even if you comply, you can still get killed. Alright, well then if you don't comply, you're likely going to get killed. So why resist and put yourself at the mercy of racist cops? I don't know. It's horrible that he shot like that and the cop should face major consequences. But while you both got pulled for air-fresheners (which is dumb in it's own right), you didn't have an active warrant that would require an arrest. And if you did, I doubt you're trying to break from the handcuffs and speed away.
Literally no one has said that around here. What has been said over and over is that there is racism inherent in our policing system and that for some reason(racism) cops are more scared of their lives at a traffic stop with People of Color than they are with white mass shooters. People the. Bend over backwards to come up with any theory they can that doesn’t point to the issue, which is systemic racism and bad policing. Then obfuscate the facts with made up anecdotes about hunting people...
That's fair enough, I attributed a LeBron James quote to this place based on a similar sentiments, which I shouldn't do.
Is that not true? Are you that fucking blind? To inherent, systemic racism through all levels of ‘Murican society? From birth to death, no less.
Is it true that black people are, as James says here, "literally hunted EVERYDAY/EVERYTIME we step foot outside the comfort of our homes!"? No, it's not.
Do you not think that every time a black person leaves their home, they wonder if they'll come home alive?
No, I don't.
I would completely agree. I will also add that does not mean there are not bad cops, that things aren't bad, that there isn't profiling or stereotyping going on. And I think its dangerous to keep playing that narrative. I remember when Rayshard Brooks was killed the coverage of it was ridiculous. I think it was CNN that had a guest on that said Rayshard fought back and used the taser because he knew if he got into that cop car they would take him out and murder him. So he did the only thing he could do and was right to do it. Then the TV anchor agreed with the guest! That level of hate is dangerous, and is going ot get more young black people killed when they keep being told cops are out there to murder them, so fight back.
Not all young black men are told to fight back (there’s no way for you to know that they are all told that). Many are told to comply....I’ll say it again, speak with a variety of blacks before making that assumption.
but....didn't you say a few posts back that all cops are taught to be aggressive assholes based on a few family members' assertions?
I did say that based on what police officers have told me (even one who posted here awhile ago said it’s an attitude thing that bothered him so bad he quit and went to work for a community college). I truly believe it’s part of the universal training no matter where they live. I’m not sure mace has ever spoken to a black person (at least I don’t believe he’s ever stated speaking to blacks) so how could he know they’re all told to fight. I’m not changing my statement about cops because I believe that is what all cops are taught based on what I know and have seen, where I know for a fact that all blacks aren’t told to fight.
And if you’re being accurate I never said aggressive.
well I don't generally tell people on a forum how many non-whites I've spoken to, I can't speak for mace.
All I'm saying is you are making a general assertion based on your own anecdotal evidence and generalizing that to an entire country, where mace is doing the same thing, and you are claiming you can and he can't. that's all I'm pointing out.
Obviously this is not going to go down well but here goes...remember I’m the one that unfortunately remembers most things I’ve read (I don’t hunt for previous posts) and you’re the one that remembers things more from in person.
I once defended the Greek guy with all the pj info (sorry I’m horrible at names) and you replied that he was a big boy and could stick up for himself (not word for word I’m sure) so mace is a big boy and can stick up for himself. Next, I didn’t ask if you ever spoke to non whites, I was saying I didn’t know if mace did or not but thanks (I guess) for your answer and what’s the problem with admitting that I’ve spoken to many blacks for 30 years? Maybe I’m proud of that and can help people see things differently. And finally, what is your deal with me? Second time asking because I’ve never directed anything to you until you’ve corrected me or made me feel bad. I told you I’d leave you alone and I have except once I agreed with you...god forbid won’t happen again
it's an open forum. people respond to me I haven't directed anything to, I do the same. everyone here does that. when you responded to mace, was it because he specifically tagged you? I'm guessing not. you responded to him because you had something to say.
I have nothing against you. I don't know you. Just because I respectfully disagree with someone doesn't mean I have a "deal" with them.
I'm not sure how I could have stated what I did more politely. how you took that/your reaction is your responsibility. I specifically did that knowing your history of having issues with me.
I agree with people I don't like, I disagree with people I do like, and vice versa. my comments never (ok, rarely) have anything to do with the poster, just the comment. Just ask dignin, for example. we don't get along but I agree with him often. he doesn't with me, but that's fine. I can handle it.
Take my silence as agreement, which is more often then not. We have way more in common than not.
I generally only comment when I disagree.
fair enough.
however I will say your disagreements are often....uh....quite direct. LOL. hence my perception.
Prohibitions generally; exceptions. (a) A person shall not drive or operate any motor vehicle with:
(2) any objects suspended between the driver and the windshield
There should be a whole division that deals with minor infractions that don’t carry lethal weapons and can’t issue any other citations than the one being stopped for.
I hear you but you never know who you’re pulling over. Plenty of examples of very minor traffic stops resulting in cops getting shot at. I recently got pulled over for having a mask hanging on the rear view mirror. I never keep it there I just happened to hang it up in between some errands.
Would people be so worried and high stress if they knew that traffic cops were only responsible for traffic and other vehicle infractions and couldn’t expand their scope beyond what they are pulling someone over for? Probably not. I mean let’s say I have a trash bag of weed in my trunk and I get pulled over for expired tags and know that I can only get a ticket for a traffic violation, tags, etc. I’m not gonna have an oh shot moment, I’m gonna take my ticket and go.
I don't agree with that. If you broke the law, all cops should be allowed to enforce it. If the law isnt worth enforcing, then don't have it. But with all this talk on more gun control, stricter enforcements, etc., wouldn't we want a traffic cop to have the ability to arrest someone with a warrant for gun charges instead of just waiting for the gun police, ATF, or whoever has the authority to enforce the gun laws? Seems not only inadequate, but also very expensive, to have a different unit of police for traffic and criminal law. A traffic cops sees an armed robbery and has to call in the robbery unit because he can only write tickets?
Prohibitions generally; exceptions. (a) A person shall not drive or operate any motor vehicle with:
(2) any objects suspended between the driver and the windshield
There should be a whole division that deals with minor infractions that don’t carry lethal weapons and can’t issue any other citations than the one being stopped for.
I hear you but you never know who you’re pulling over. Plenty of examples of very minor traffic stops resulting in cops getting shot at. I recently got pulled over for having a mask hanging on the rear view mirror. I never keep it there I just happened to hang it up in between some errands.
Would people be so worried and high stress if they knew that traffic cops were only responsible for traffic and other vehicle infractions and couldn’t expand their scope beyond what they are pulling someone over for? Probably not. I mean let’s say I have a trash bag of weed in my trunk and I get pulled over for expired tags and know that I can only get a ticket for a traffic violation, tags, etc. I’m not gonna have an oh shot moment, I’m gonna take my ticket and go.
I don't agree with that. If you broke the law, all cops should be allowed to enforce it. If the law isnt worth enforcing, then don't have it. But with all this talk on more gun control, stricter enforcements, etc., wouldn't we want a traffic cop to have the ability to arrest someone with a warrant for gun charges instead of just waiting for the gun police, ATF, or whoever has the authority to enforce the gun laws? Seems not only inadequate, but also very expensive, to have a different unit of police for traffic and criminal law. A traffic cops sees an armed robbery and has to call in the robbery unit because he can only write tickets?
i view it as kind of the same function of a parking authority or a citizen's arrest, not an actual cop. I'll do it if I deem it safe enough, but if not, I'm calling the cops.
however, not sure how impaired driving would work. so yeah, not sure how that would go.
i don't know about you all, but when i eat soup i routinely accidently grab a fork instead of a spoon.
lol, yeah, that explanation isn't believable in the least (to me, anyway).
when you hold a taser out in front of you and a gun out in front of you, when you aim down the sight, they both look different, right? the handles feel different in your hands, right? i mean, come on. that explanation is laughable.
Ever been in a situation like that? Ever been under heavy stress and have that adrenaline dump? People act all high and mighty like they'd never make a mistake. Good for all you better people arm chairing because you're perfect. People have hit the gas many times instead of the brake because they get tunnel vision and cognitive thought is non existent.
I'm sick of people making fun of it. Yeah, sure, she was supposed to be perfect because she's a cop, right? Humans fuck up, and that's what she did.
try using that defense in court.
i used to work in surgery. i used to pass powered instruments to the surgeon. the drills and saws felt the same if you grabbed them by the handle. that is why when the doc asked for the reciprocating saw we made sure to look down and make sure we did not hand him the oscillating saw by mistake. it is a high pressure situation, but we double checked what we were handing him because we did not want to risk anything happening to the patient.
i have been in pressure situations like that, and i did not fuck up. so spare me that excuse. the grip on the taser is completely different than that of the gun by design. the gun is metal, the taser is a different material. if you show me someone who cannot tell the difference between the taser and the gun by tactile feel AND vision, i will show you someone who has no fucking business being a police officer.
It's not a defense in court. You're still criminally liable for the manslaughter charge, but you and others seem to be trying to sell it off as intentional murder.
That's good you could look down to visually verify surgical tools, completely different setting. Thankfully the patient is sedated and unable to move so they can't physically harm you while you look down to verify what you're doing. Stressful situation, but completely different.
Yes, 99.9% of the time the cop does notice or is aware, but there is a chance of failure and mistake, especially under stress and adrenaline. This is one of those times and there should be a consequence beyond loss of job. Charges should be announced today and I expect manslaughter.
Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
i don't know about you all, but when i eat soup i routinely accidently grab a fork instead of a spoon.
lol, yeah, that explanation isn't believable in the least (to me, anyway).
when you hold a taser out in front of you and a gun out in front of you, when you aim down the sight, they both look different, right? the handles feel different in your hands, right? i mean, come on. that explanation is laughable.
Ever been in a situation like that? Ever been under heavy stress and have that adrenaline dump? People act all high and mighty like they'd never make a mistake. Good for all you better people arm chairing because you're perfect. People have hit the gas many times instead of the brake because they get tunnel vision and cognitive thought is non existent.
I'm sick of people making fun of it. Yeah, sure, she was supposed to be perfect because she's a cop, right? Humans fuck up, and that's what she did.
try using that defense in court.
i used to work in surgery. i used to pass powered instruments to the surgeon. the drills and saws felt the same if you grabbed them by the handle. that is why when the doc asked for the reciprocating saw we made sure to look down and make sure we did not hand him the oscillating saw by mistake. it is a high pressure situation, but we double checked what we were handing him because we did not want to risk anything happening to the patient.
i have been in pressure situations like that, and i did not fuck up. so spare me that excuse. the grip on the taser is completely different than that of the gun by design. the gun is metal, the taser is a different material. if you show me someone who cannot tell the difference between the taser and the gun by tactile feel AND vision, i will show you someone who has no fucking business being a police officer.
It's not a defense in court. You're still criminally liable for the manslaughter charge, but you and others seem to be trying to sell it off as intentional murder.
That's good you could look down to visually verify surgical tools, completely different setting. Thankfully the patient is sedated and unable to move so they can't physically harm you while you look down to verify what you're doing. Stressful situation, but completely different.
Yes, 99.9% of the time the cop does notice or is aware, but there is a chance of failure and mistake, especially under stress and adrenaline. This is one of those times and there should be a consequence beyond loss of job. Charges should be announced today and I expect manslaughter.
Now we wait for the acquittal.
I think this one will be a slam dunk conviction. What's fucked up is that this officer unintentionally killed someone due to her actions over the span of about 5 seconds and Chauvin had minutes upon minutes to change the course of that incident and did nothing, yet they will probably end up getting convicted of the same charge, 2nd degree manslaughter. That alone shows the issues with the justice system.
Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
yes, I know you were referring to Wright; I was commenting on your assertion that there is something to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority; Floyd did respect authority, and he still wound up dead.
I 100% understand why a black person would flee or resist arrest. I think many of them think they have a better chance of survival if they take off.
i don't know about you all, but when i eat soup i routinely accidently grab a fork instead of a spoon.
lol, yeah, that explanation isn't believable in the least (to me, anyway).
when you hold a taser out in front of you and a gun out in front of you, when you aim down the sight, they both look different, right? the handles feel different in your hands, right? i mean, come on. that explanation is laughable.
Ever been in a situation like that? Ever been under heavy stress and have that adrenaline dump? People act all high and mighty like they'd never make a mistake. Good for all you better people arm chairing because you're perfect. People have hit the gas many times instead of the brake because they get tunnel vision and cognitive thought is non existent.
I'm sick of people making fun of it. Yeah, sure, she was supposed to be perfect because she's a cop, right? Humans fuck up, and that's what she did.
try using that defense in court.
i used to work in surgery. i used to pass powered instruments to the surgeon. the drills and saws felt the same if you grabbed them by the handle. that is why when the doc asked for the reciprocating saw we made sure to look down and make sure we did not hand him the oscillating saw by mistake. it is a high pressure situation, but we double checked what we were handing him because we did not want to risk anything happening to the patient.
i have been in pressure situations like that, and i did not fuck up. so spare me that excuse. the grip on the taser is completely different than that of the gun by design. the gun is metal, the taser is a different material. if you show me someone who cannot tell the difference between the taser and the gun by tactile feel AND vision, i will show you someone who has no fucking business being a police officer.
It's not a defense in court. You're still criminally liable for the manslaughter charge, but you and others seem to be trying to sell it off as intentional murder.
That's good you could look down to visually verify surgical tools, completely different setting. Thankfully the patient is sedated and unable to move so they can't physically harm you while you look down to verify what you're doing. Stressful situation, but completely different.
Yes, 99.9% of the time the cop does notice or is aware, but there is a chance of failure and mistake, especially under stress and adrenaline. This is one of those times and there should be a consequence beyond loss of job. Charges should be announced today and I expect manslaughter.
Now we wait for the acquittal.
I think this one will be a slam dunk conviction. What's fucked up is that this officer unintentionally killed someone due to her actions over the span of about 5 seconds and Chauvin had minutes upon minutes to change the course of that incident and did nothing, yet they will probably end up getting convicted of the same charge, 2nd degree manslaughter. That alone shows the issues with the justice system.
I've pretended to be an expert on many things, but criminal law isnt one of the yet. So I'm not sure what the differences are, but there is probably a lesser charge of endangerment that is probably more fitting for the reasons you said.
a slam dunk conviction? a white officer killing a black man resisting arrest is NEVER a slam dunk conviction. I sure hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath.
Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
This is your third white supremacist post blowing the exact same dogwhistle.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
If more than half the country thinks as this post lays out, then it deserves another fucking DJT and whatever may come of it.
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in the US's short, violent history, instances in which minority victims attempted to meet their white abusers halfway have almost never worked out for the minority community in the long run. The white abusers quickly retool their olive branches into switches.
Also, the rap sheet I saw contained two misdemeanors on it. I had plenty more on mine before my 21st birthday, and I continued to resist arrest, flee, etc., whenever confronted by LEOs. I just can't believe my luck!
i don't know about you all, but when i eat soup i routinely accidently grab a fork instead of a spoon.
lol, yeah, that explanation isn't believable in the least (to me, anyway).
when you hold a taser out in front of you and a gun out in front of you, when you aim down the sight, they both look different, right? the handles feel different in your hands, right? i mean, come on. that explanation is laughable.
Ever been in a situation like that? Ever been under heavy stress and have that adrenaline dump? People act all high and mighty like they'd never make a mistake. Good for all you better people arm chairing because you're perfect. People have hit the gas many times instead of the brake because they get tunnel vision and cognitive thought is non existent.
I'm sick of people making fun of it. Yeah, sure, she was supposed to be perfect because she's a cop, right? Humans fuck up, and that's what she did.
try using that defense in court.
i used to work in surgery. i used to pass powered instruments to the surgeon. the drills and saws felt the same if you grabbed them by the handle. that is why when the doc asked for the reciprocating saw we made sure to look down and make sure we did not hand him the oscillating saw by mistake. it is a high pressure situation, but we double checked what we were handing him because we did not want to risk anything happening to the patient.
i have been in pressure situations like that, and i did not fuck up. so spare me that excuse. the grip on the taser is completely different than that of the gun by design. the gun is metal, the taser is a different material. if you show me someone who cannot tell the difference between the taser and the gun by tactile feel AND vision, i will show you someone who has no fucking business being a police officer.
It's not a defense in court. You're still criminally liable for the manslaughter charge, but you and others seem to be trying to sell it off as intentional murder.
That's good you could look down to visually verify surgical tools, completely different setting. Thankfully the patient is sedated and unable to move so they can't physically harm you while you look down to verify what you're doing. Stressful situation, but completely different.
Yes, 99.9% of the time the cop does notice or is aware, but there is a chance of failure and mistake, especially under stress and adrenaline. This is one of those times and there should be a consequence beyond loss of job. Charges should be announced today and I expect manslaughter.
Now we wait for the acquittal.
I think this one will be a slam dunk conviction. What's fucked up is that this officer unintentionally killed someone due to her actions over the span of about 5 seconds and Chauvin had minutes upon minutes to change the course of that incident and did nothing, yet they will probably end up getting convicted of the same charge, 2nd degree manslaughter. That alone shows the issues with the justice system.
Good point but Chauvin was at least charged with higher graded crimes, and can still be convicted on them (unlikely, but still). But I get what you’re getting at. The most likely outcome for both is 2nd degree manslaughter...yet Chauvin was more callous, and his negligence was more deliberate (if that makes sense). Potter’s negligence was more stupidity-based, but the result was the same: the arrestee died.
Why is it that we have armed police officers patrolling middle schools and body slamming students? What other country has armed police in their middle and high schools? The inability of some to see the bigger picture is astounding to me. Two charges that I'm aware of, one illegal possession of a firearm and the other a no show court appearance equals a rap sheet worthy of being a menace to society? As a young black man, you know of all these instances where people like you are killed by the cops and yet, you also see a white kid with a long gun shoot multiple people, try to surrender to the police and be allowed to walk away. This shit isn't happening in a vacuum and it wouldn't surprise me if the conversation in the cop bar after work is "just claim you mistook your gun for your taser." Because we all know cops never conspire, plant evidence or cover up.
Has any kind of weapon been found in the car or on the person of Daunte Wright? So, why was he shot, again?
a slam dunk conviction? a white officer killing a black man resisting arrest is NEVER a slam dunk conviction. I sure hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath.
True. But I wonder whether the Police Department's statement about what happened can lead to her being convicted.
The most likely outcome between her and Chauvin is she'll do time and Chauvin won't. That certainly would not be consistent with intent and which one I'd be more concerned with being on the street.
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Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
This is your third white supremacist post blowing the exact same dogwhistle.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
If more than half the country thinks as this post lays out, then it deserves another fucking DJT and whatever may come of it.
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in the US's short, violent history, instances in which minority victims attempted to meet their white abusers halfway have almost never worked out for the minority community in the long run. The white abusers quickly retool their olive branches into switches.
Also, the rap sheet I saw contained two misdemeanors on it. I had plenty more on mine before my 21st birthday, and I continued to resist arrest, flee, etc., whenever confronted by LEOs. I just can't believe my luck!
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway. This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway. This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
Truth
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Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
This is your third white supremacist post blowing the exact same dogwhistle.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
If more than half the country thinks as this post lays out, then it deserves another fucking DJT and whatever may come of it.
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in the US's short, violent history, instances in which minority victims attempted to meet their white abusers halfway have almost never worked out for the minority community in the long run. The white abusers quickly retool their olive branches into switches.
Also, the rap sheet I saw contained two misdemeanors on it. I had plenty more on mine before my 21st birthday, and I continued to resist arrest, flee, etc., whenever confronted by LEOs. I just can't believe my luck!
What do you mean by that in this case? Leading up to the shooting, what did the cops do wrong in this case? Are the police not supposed to arrest someone with an active warrant? Are they supposed to just let him flee without attempting to restrain him? No one is asking him to meet them half way, but the police need to do their jobs. And that includes arresting people with a warrant. I mean, we had a lot of talk recently about being more aggressive with gun laws. Are those gun laws only supposed ot apply to white people? Of course not. So I just don't understand what you meant by the victims are not supposed to meet their abusers half way. Up until the moment she pulled the trigger, what did they do wrong? I see nothing. Had it actually been a taser and not a gun, I'd say the police did everything right. SO what does not meeting them halfway look like, not allowing himself to be arrested?
The End of Policing by Alex Vitale - Lots of great proposals/ideas. I agreed with most of the points the author makes, some not so much. Worth reading.
As for how the office could have mistaken a taser for a sidearm, and how stress/adrenaline/situational events can lead to what happened Sunday afternoon:
On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman
Can we all agree it’s time for cops to be cops instead of the cop, judge, jury, and executioner? Yes the victim was wrong, but that in no way entitles an officer to convict.
I don’t think anyone on the forum is saying the officer is trying to be an executioner. The officer made a brutally poor mistake, lost her career and possibly will serve a few years for manslaughter. If you don’t hear that in her voice on the video, we'll need to agree to disagree.
the victim made a conscious decision to flea arrest, to drive without plates, to ignore a court appointment and an appearance in front of a judge, carry a gun illegally and run from the police. All of these were conscious decisions by the victim at different points in time. Did he deserve to die? of course not, this is a tragedy. But he made six conscious decisions, each of which put his life in more danger.
If democrats and the black community pretend in this case there is nothing to be learned about living within the law and respecting authority, this will turn into a gift to trump and his comrades, just like defund the police was. It is time for all of us to acknowledge when we take risky behavior involving the police, bad accidents can happen.
george floyd did none of those things. he complied and he was murdered.
If I was a black person, I'd be terrified every single time I saw a siren. seriously. do I think they are being hunted? no, but I do believe that police (and the general public) have pre-conceived notions of how a person of a certain skin colour is going to act/react, how much danger they are going to be, etc, and act/react accordingly.
To be clear, I was commenting on Wright, not Floyd. In this case, they didn’t have preconceived notions, they had knowledge of multiple violations of law and a physical altercation initiated by the suspect.
The taser was a terrible accident, the cop did not look down and had every reason to believe the criminal could have a gun in his car and had a split second to react. A horrible accident, but one the victim clearly placed himself in harms way by becoming physical in his attempt to flee arrest
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
This is your third white supremacist post blowing the exact same dogwhistle.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
If more than half the country thinks as this post lays out, then it deserves another fucking DJT and whatever may come of it.
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in the US's short, violent history, instances in which minority victims attempted to meet their white abusers halfway have almost never worked out for the minority community in the long run. The white abusers quickly retool their olive branches into switches.
Also, the rap sheet I saw contained two misdemeanors on it. I had plenty more on mine before my 21st birthday, and I continued to resist arrest, flee, etc., whenever confronted by LEOs. I just can't believe my luck!
What do you mean by that in this case? Leading up to the shooting, what did the cops do wrong in this case? Are the police not supposed to arrest someone with an active warrant? Are they supposed to just let him flee without attempting to restrain him? No one is asking him to meet them half way, but the police need to do their jobs. And that includes arresting people with a warrant. I mean, we had a lot of talk recently about being more aggressive with gun laws. Are those gun laws only supposed ot apply to white people? Of course not. So I just don't understand what you meant by the victims are not supposed to meet their abusers half way. Up until the moment she pulled the trigger, what did they do wrong? I see nothing. Had it actually been a taser and not a gun, I'd say the police did everything right. SO what does not meeting them halfway look like, not allowing himself to be arrested?
You see nothing wrong with how three armed cops handled that situation? Wow. Tell me, why was Daunte Wright shot?
Maybe someone can explain to me why a "compliant" black man was maced. And some here don't think its open season. Just comply.
Caron Nazario saw Eric Garner, his ‘uncle,’ die in police hands. Then officers assaulted him six years later.
For a moment, as the video played on his cellphone, Charles Welch thought he was about to watch a White police officer kill one of his family members for the second time.
On the screen, he saw his wife’s cousin, Caron Nazario, a 27-year-old Army second lieutenant who, while still in uniform, had been pulled over by a pair of officers in Windsor, Va. Both men had drawn their weapons, and now both were screaming at Nazario, who struggled to understand what they wanted from him.
“What’s going on?” he asked, in a video from the December traffic stop that has since exploded across the Internet.
“What’s going on is you’re fixing to ride the lightning, son,” Officer Joe Gutierrez shouted back, using a slang term that can refer to execution.
Welch, 52, couldn’t process what he was seeing on his phone. He had helped raise Nazario and considered him to be his nephew. Welch held his breath as tears streaked his cheeks.
He had seen a version of this video before.
His wife, Raquel, was also a cousin to Eric Garner, the Black man who died on a Staten Island sidewalk in 2014 after an officer wrapped him in a chokehold. The national outrage, demands for change and immortalization of his last words — “I can’t breathe” — did little to quell the anguish his family suffered. Among them was a young man, Caron Nazario, who called Garner his uncle.
Raquel contacted him soon after Garner’s death. Amid her grief, she needed to remind him of a message he’d heard many times before: If a police officer ever confronted him, he had to stay calm, comply, never make them feel threatened.
Six years later, on a cool winter evening, he was driving home from military training when police lights flashed behind him. His Chevrolet Tahoe was so new that he still hadn’t received permanent plates, but the temporary ones taped to the inside were visible through the back window.
Nazario, who is Black and Latino, didn’t want to pull over in the dark, so he continued on for a brief stretch until he reached a well-lit BP gas station. It was there that Gutierrez and another officer, Daniel Crocker, drew their handguns and demanded that Nazario step outside.
Despite Nazario’s composure — quietly asking for an explanation, pleading with the officers to relax, holding his hands up through the window — Gutierrez pepper-sprayed him in the face before pulling him out and striking him repeatedly with his knee.
“I’m actively serving this country and this is how you’re going to treat me?” Nazario said, never once raising his voice.
Nazario, who was released without charges, filed a lawsuit this month that claims Gutierrez and Crocker violated his constitutional rights, specifically the Fourth Amendment. The lawsuit says police also threatened to end Nazario’s military career if he spoke out about the incident. He’s seeking at least $1 million in damages.
The litigation has focused even more of the nation’s attention on how police treat Black men at a moment when Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis officer, is facing trial for the death of George Floyd. Not far from the courthouse, another unarmed Black man, Daunte Wright, was killed by a police officer on Sunday in a Minneapolis suburb.
What many people have found most remarkable about Nazario’s experience isn’t the alleged mistreatment — the same sort they’ve seen time after time — but, instead, the way he responded to it.
“That demeanor is who he is all the time,” Raquel said. “That’s just who he is.”
Her husband recalled episodes during Nazario’s childhood when he’d remain so stoic during a scolding that it would frustrate his mother.
“Ma,” he’d tell her, “calm down.”
Garner’s mom, Gwen Carr, recognized that same poise in him as a child growing up around the corner from her home in Brooklyn — and, she thinks, it kept him alive.
“I really thank God that it ended up the way it did because if he had stopped in that dark place, I’m sure they would have taken his life,” Carr said. “I’m so glad he drove and he got to that gas station.”
Carr recalled Nazario’s early years fondly. He was, she said, a smart student and a talented athlete, later playing baseball — he was a pitcher — and running track at George Westinghouse High School.
“He was respectful, responsible. A good kid,” Carr said. “Everyone liked him.”
Nazario, one of four siblings raised by a single mom, had wanted to join the military since childhood. He was enthralled by the stories that Raquel’s father, a decorated Vietnam veteran, told about the war, and he’d always liked to help people.
Growing up, Nazario, who got As and Bs, received several awards for community service, including special citations from the city council and Brooklyn borough officials. In high school, he volunteered to serve as a map technician at local government meetings.
In 2011, he enrolled at Virginia State University, drawn to its status as a historically Black college. Two years later, Nazario left to enlist in the Army as a combat medic. He then returned to VSU and was accepted into the ROTC program, earning the chance to become an officer.
It was an intense environment, said Alexis Simmons, who served in the same ROTC program, but Nazario was always the “de-escalator.”
“If somebody was arguing, he’d be the one to talk everybody down,” she said, also recalling his keen sense of empathy. One day, she was struggling with a personal issue, but doing her best to hide it. He still noticed. Nazario pulled her aside and told her he was there for her if she needed anything.
Deon Tillman, a classmate and campus photographer, posted images this week on Facebook of Nazario at his graduation, dressed in full uniform. For as long as he has known Nazario, Tillman wrote, “he has been chill, cool, calm and collected.”
He hopes that those photos, and not the ones of Nazario handcuffed on the pavement, will be the lasting images people have of him.
Nazario was commissioned in the Virginia National Guard in December 2016 and works as an Army Health Services Administration officer. He served on active duty last year as part of the Guard’s coronavirus response, a spokesman said. After the Jan. 6 Capitol insurrection, his attorney said, he also was activated to serve in the District, working on the medical staff at the central command center.
In February, Nazario returned home to New York after Raquel’s father died. At the funeral, he mentioned that he’d been pulled over by police, but, with typical understatement, shared few details. Most of his family had no idea what he’d endured until the video spread this weekend.
Raquel and her husband began checking on him nearly every day.
“He’s not doing okay,” Raquel said of Nazario, who still endures nightmares about that night. “As calm as he was, I think anybody who went through that would be dealing with trauma.”
In a call, the couple learned something else about him, too: The Army might deploy him to Afghanistan later this year.
They were stunned. He’d just survived what was, in their view, a near-death experience, and now he could be sent to a combat zone? Was he well enough to do that? Couldn’t he get out of it somehow?
“If they ask me to go,” Nazario told them, “I’m going to go.”
Imagine if conservative white Americans got half as mad about what happened to Ahmoud Arbery or Caron Nazario as they did when a couple of black NFL players knelt during the anthem?
I don't think 12yo Tamir Rice had a chance to comply.
That incident, this current incident and the Floyd incident all had very different circumstances ending in the same result, death by cop, but that doesn't mean they all should be treated the same way. An officer intentionally shooting someone, unintentionally shooting someone and using excessive force all require law enforcement to be held accountable for these failures and make changes to how they respond to calls. That may be anything from scenario based training on de-escalation, duty to act when using any type of force, after action review by civilian or designated unbiased board, increased firearms proficiency and simulation scenario training. Sometimes the incident has nothing to do with race and is more to do with incompetence and negligence and other times it's clear that race was the factor. Many of these cops were assholes no matter who they dealt with and additionally some were racist assholes.
It has been ingrained for years that an officer's life is on the line every shift they work and that isn't true. While officers needs to be cognizant of the potential for violence and weapons involved incidents, that is not the majority of their work. I think I read a stat that none of the officers who work for Brooklyn Center actually even live in the city. That's an amazingly sad statistic, but I don't think it's uncommon. If people knew the officers and the officers knew their community outside their shift, it would change how these interactions unfold. Community policing has been a cliche for decades, but the merits of an effective program far outweigh any of the cons. Make these cops be a part of the community they serve beyond the siloed negative interactions they experience from a limited part of the population every day they come to work.
i don't know about you all, but when i eat soup i routinely accidently grab a fork instead of a spoon.
lol, yeah, that explanation isn't believable in the least (to me, anyway).
when you hold a taser out in front of you and a gun out in front of you, when you aim down the sight, they both look different, right? the handles feel different in your hands, right? i mean, come on. that explanation is laughable.
Ever been in a situation like that? Ever been under heavy stress and have that adrenaline dump? People act all high and mighty like they'd never make a mistake. Good for all you better people arm chairing because you're perfect. People have hit the gas many times instead of the brake because they get tunnel vision and cognitive thought is non existent.
I'm sick of people making fun of it. Yeah, sure, she was supposed to be perfect because she's a cop, right? Humans fuck up, and that's what she did.
try using that defense in court.
i used to work in surgery. i used to pass powered instruments to the surgeon. the drills and saws felt the same if you grabbed them by the handle. that is why when the doc asked for the reciprocating saw we made sure to look down and make sure we did not hand him the oscillating saw by mistake. it is a high pressure situation, but we double checked what we were handing him because we did not want to risk anything happening to the patient.
i have been in pressure situations like that, and i did not fuck up. so spare me that excuse. the grip on the taser is completely different than that of the gun by design. the gun is metal, the taser is a different material. if you show me someone who cannot tell the difference between the taser and the gun by tactile feel AND vision, i will show you someone who has no fucking business being a police officer.
How many times during a surgery have you been presented with a fight or flight response? A pressure situation and one where a physiological response is triggered really should not be compared. I do not think the officer intended to use deadly force, but rather reacted to a split second response out of their control and will pay the price, much like the victim. If we are willing to question the officers actions we also have to question the actions of the victim. Both made mistakes and the outcome was very unfortunate. Not a single human is infallible and I think that is important to remember. This particular case does not appear to be racially motivated IMO.
Comments
negligent homicide
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I generally only comment when I disagree.
I'm not going to address all of this again as it's been done and explained before, and frankly, no one here wants to read this. I'll just say this, as politely as I can: if every time I make a comment you are going to take it this personally, then just put me on ignore.
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- What kind of people desire to become cops (Kyle Rittenhouse) and why (the power and "hunt" as opposed to protecting and serving?)
- Do we need the "armed cop" culture/presence? Do other countries have the same culture? But how can you change that and continue to have the same protections? One example in the Twin Cities is cops doing "fare checks" on the light-rail-transit lines (which are honor system). It's been suggested that this should be done by unarmed people but I don't actually think they'd successfully fine most people; most people would just shove them (or worse) and move on. My solution is to just let it go and live with the fact that some people will free ride. But the outrage amongst suburbanites who put mannequins in the HOV lane would be unreal.
- The USA incarcerates at an alarming rate. Is that part of what raises the temperature when cops interact with people? Hopefully, as we decriminalize marijuana, that will be mitigated some.
- Are there examples in other places that can be emulated?
I know this isn't comforting to people who legitimately think any interaction can result in death, but I think the culture change we need is going have to come over the long haul.2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
however I will say your disagreements are often....uh....quite direct. LOL. hence my perception.
www.headstonesband.com
But with all this talk on more gun control, stricter enforcements, etc., wouldn't we want a traffic cop to have the ability to arrest someone with a warrant for gun charges instead of just waiting for the gun police, ATF, or whoever has the authority to enforce the gun laws?
Seems not only inadequate, but also very expensive, to have a different unit of police for traffic and criminal law. A traffic cops sees an armed robbery and has to call in the robbery unit because he can only write tickets?
however, not sure how impaired driving would work. so yeah, not sure how that would go.
www.headstonesband.com
Certain times call for accountability. Potter may serve four years for this horrible accident. If the black community chooses to ignore the rap sheet a young 20 year old was building in short order, they are not going to find the solutions they are hoping for.
I 100% understand why a black person would flee or resist arrest. I think many of them think they have a better chance of survival if they take off.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
If more than half the country thinks as this post lays out, then it deserves another fucking DJT and whatever may come of it.
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that in the US's short, violent history, instances in which minority victims attempted to meet their white abusers halfway have almost never worked out for the minority community in the long run. The white abusers quickly retool their olive branches into switches.
Also, the rap sheet I saw contained two misdemeanors on it. I had plenty more on mine before my 21st birthday, and I continued to resist arrest, flee, etc., whenever confronted by LEOs. I just can't believe my luck!
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Why is it that we have armed police officers patrolling middle schools and body slamming students? What other country has armed police in their middle and high schools? The inability of some to see the bigger picture is astounding to me. Two charges that I'm aware of, one illegal possession of a firearm and the other a no show court appearance equals a rap sheet worthy of being a menace to society? As a young black man, you know of all these instances where people like you are killed by the cops and yet, you also see a white kid with a long gun shoot multiple people, try to surrender to the police and be allowed to walk away. This shit isn't happening in a vacuum and it wouldn't surprise me if the conversation in the cop bar after work is "just claim you mistook your gun for your taser." Because we all know cops never conspire, plant evidence or cover up.
Has any kind of weapon been found in the car or on the person of Daunte Wright? So, why was he shot, again?
Just comply, you'll be fine. Yea, sure.
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What Black drivers are doing to protect themselves during traffic stops - CNN
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This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
This should be obvious, but it is not on victims to meet their abusers halfway.
Truth
No one is asking him to meet them half way, but the police need to do their jobs. And that includes arresting people with a warrant. I mean, we had a lot of talk recently about being more aggressive with gun laws. Are those gun laws only supposed ot apply to white people? Of course not. So I just don't understand what you meant by the victims are not supposed to meet their abusers half way. Up until the moment she pulled the trigger, what did they do wrong? I see nothing. Had it actually been a taser and not a gun, I'd say the police did everything right. SO what does not meeting them halfway look like, not allowing himself to be arrested?
The End of Policing by Alex Vitale
- Lots of great proposals/ideas. I agreed with most of the points the author makes, some not so much. Worth reading.
As for how the office could have mistaken a taser for a sidearm, and how stress/adrenaline/situational events can lead to what happened Sunday afternoon:
On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman
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Caron Nazario saw Eric Garner, his ‘uncle,’ die in police hands. Then officers assaulted him six years later.
For a moment, as the video played on his cellphone, Charles Welch thought he was about to watch a White police officer kill one of his family members for the second time.
On the screen, he saw his wife’s cousin, Caron Nazario, a 27-year-old Army second lieutenant who, while still in uniform, had been pulled over by a pair of officers in Windsor, Va. Both men had drawn their weapons, and now both were screaming at Nazario, who struggled to understand what they wanted from him.
“What’s going on?” he asked, in a video from the December traffic stop that has since exploded across the Internet.
“What’s going on is you’re fixing to ride the lightning, son,” Officer Joe Gutierrez shouted back, using a slang term that can refer to execution.
Welch, 52, couldn’t process what he was seeing on his phone. He had helped raise Nazario and considered him to be his nephew. Welch held his breath as tears streaked his cheeks.
He had seen a version of this video before.
His wife, Raquel, was also a cousin to Eric Garner, the Black man who died on a Staten Island sidewalk in 2014 after an officer wrapped him in a chokehold. The national outrage, demands for change and immortalization of his last words — “I can’t breathe” — did little to quell the anguish his family suffered. Among them was a young man, Caron Nazario, who called Garner his uncle.
Raquel contacted him soon after Garner’s death. Amid her grief, she needed to remind him of a message he’d heard many times before: If a police officer ever confronted him, he had to stay calm, comply, never make them feel threatened.
Six years later, on a cool winter evening, he was driving home from military training when police lights flashed behind him. His Chevrolet Tahoe was so new that he still hadn’t received permanent plates, but the temporary ones taped to the inside were visible through the back window.
Nazario, who is Black and Latino, didn’t want to pull over in the dark, so he continued on for a brief stretch until he reached a well-lit BP gas station. It was there that Gutierrez and another officer, Daniel Crocker, drew their handguns and demanded that Nazario step outside.
Despite Nazario’s composure — quietly asking for an explanation, pleading with the officers to relax, holding his hands up through the window — Gutierrez pepper-sprayed him in the face before pulling him out and striking him repeatedly with his knee.
“I’m actively serving this country and this is how you’re going to treat me?” Nazario said, never once raising his voice.
Nazario, who was released without charges, filed a lawsuit this month that claims Gutierrez and Crocker violated his constitutional rights, specifically the Fourth Amendment. The lawsuit says police also threatened to end Nazario’s military career if he spoke out about the incident. He’s seeking at least $1 million in damages.
The litigation has focused even more of the nation’s attention on how police treat Black men at a moment when Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis officer, is facing trial for the death of George Floyd. Not far from the courthouse, another unarmed Black man, Daunte Wright, was killed by a police officer on Sunday in a Minneapolis suburb.
What many people have found most remarkable about Nazario’s experience isn’t the alleged mistreatment — the same sort they’ve seen time after time — but, instead, the way he responded to it.
“That demeanor is who he is all the time,” Raquel said. “That’s just who he is.”
Her husband recalled episodes during Nazario’s childhood when he’d remain so stoic during a scolding that it would frustrate his mother.
“Ma,” he’d tell her, “calm down.”
Garner’s mom, Gwen Carr, recognized that same poise in him as a child growing up around the corner from her home in Brooklyn — and, she thinks, it kept him alive.
“I really thank God that it ended up the way it did because if he had stopped in that dark place, I’m sure they would have taken his life,” Carr said. “I’m so glad he drove and he got to that gas station.”
Carr recalled Nazario’s early years fondly. He was, she said, a smart student and a talented athlete, later playing baseball — he was a pitcher — and running track at George Westinghouse High School.
“He was respectful, responsible. A good kid,” Carr said. “Everyone liked him.”
Nazario, one of four siblings raised by a single mom, had wanted to join the military since childhood. He was enthralled by the stories that Raquel’s father, a decorated Vietnam veteran, told about the war, and he’d always liked to help people.
Growing up, Nazario, who got As and Bs, received several awards for community service, including special citations from the city council and Brooklyn borough officials. In high school, he volunteered to serve as a map technician at local government meetings.
In 2011, he enrolled at Virginia State University, drawn to its status as a historically Black college. Two years later, Nazario left to enlist in the Army as a combat medic. He then returned to VSU and was accepted into the ROTC program, earning the chance to become an officer.
It was an intense environment, said Alexis Simmons, who served in the same ROTC program, but Nazario was always the “de-escalator.”
“If somebody was arguing, he’d be the one to talk everybody down,” she said, also recalling his keen sense of empathy. One day, she was struggling with a personal issue, but doing her best to hide it. He still noticed. Nazario pulled her aside and told her he was there for her if she needed anything.
Deon Tillman, a classmate and campus photographer, posted images this week on Facebook of Nazario at his graduation, dressed in full uniform. For as long as he has known Nazario, Tillman wrote, “he has been chill, cool, calm and collected.”
He hopes that those photos, and not the ones of Nazario handcuffed on the pavement, will be the lasting images people have of him.
Nazario was commissioned in the Virginia National Guard in December 2016 and works as an Army Health Services Administration officer. He served on active duty last year as part of the Guard’s coronavirus response, a spokesman said. After the Jan. 6 Capitol insurrection, his attorney said, he also was activated to serve in the District, working on the medical staff at the central command center.
In February, Nazario returned home to New York after Raquel’s father died. At the funeral, he mentioned that he’d been pulled over by police, but, with typical understatement, shared few details. Most of his family had no idea what he’d endured until the video spread this weekend.
Raquel and her husband began checking on him nearly every day.
“He’s not doing okay,” Raquel said of Nazario, who still endures nightmares about that night. “As calm as he was, I think anybody who went through that would be dealing with trauma.”
In a call, the couple learned something else about him, too: The Army might deploy him to Afghanistan later this year.
They were stunned. He’d just survived what was, in their view, a near-death experience, and now he could be sent to a combat zone? Was he well enough to do that? Couldn’t he get out of it somehow?
“If they ask me to go,” Nazario told them, “I’m going to go.”
Caron Nazario saw his uncle, Eric Garner, die in police hands. Windsor, Va., officers assaulted him, - The Washington Post
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Imagine if conservative white Americans got half as mad about what happened to Ahmoud Arbery or Caron Nazario as they did when a couple of black NFL players knelt during the anthem?
Yeah, I can't imagine it either.
It has been ingrained for years that an officer's life is on the line every shift they work and that isn't true. While officers needs to be cognizant of the potential for violence and weapons involved incidents, that is not the majority of their work. I think I read a stat that none of the officers who work for Brooklyn Center actually even live in the city. That's an amazingly sad statistic, but I don't think it's uncommon. If people knew the officers and the officers knew their community outside their shift, it would change how these interactions unfold. Community policing has been a cliche for decades, but the merits of an effective program far outweigh any of the cons. Make these cops be a part of the community they serve beyond the siloed negative interactions they experience from a limited part of the population every day they come to work.