Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

Byrnzie

Byrnzie

rr165892 said:

Yes,Byrnzie Hamas is A real big problem in this peace process.Just like Netanyahu is stepping on Israeli dicks in this also.IMO both sides have factions standing the the way of progress.

There are sane,clear headed folks in both Israel's minority party and in The P.A that could have had this nonsense halted by now.This process needs honest brokers on both sides.

There never was any peace process. Haven't you been paying attention? http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam

Byrnzie

'News' U.S style: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/30/russell-brand-sean-hannity_n_5632882.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Now I'm beginning to understand why so many Americans think the way they do. This shit is unreal.

lolobugg

after 32 pages....
this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..."
because I think the original meaning has been buried.

JimmyV

lolobugg said:

after 32 pages....
this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..."
because I think the original meaning has been buried.

It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.

Byrnzie

Don't blame me for that. I came into this thread on page 14 after people began trying to excuse and justify Israel's slaughter.

eldarion75

i just cant get over this...someone please make them stop

dignin

JimmyV said:

lolobugg said:

after 32 pages....
this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..."
because I think the original meaning has been buried.

It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.

I see it differently, the thread has evolved. It would have been long since dead without this evolution. I do not see anyone here wanting war......everyone posting here wants peace. They are debating how that peace is possible.

It was a debate started by Ed and continued by us.

Also if you feel like talking about any number of conflicts going on right now, feel free to do so. This is the place to do it.

BS44325

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

Confirmed. A month ago Byrnzie and I went to town on each other over in the Falkland Island thread in AMT.

Not quite what I was getting at. (And I don't remember any Falkland Islands thread. Care to post a link to it?)

Earth to Brint I was making a joke.

JimmyV

dignin said:

JimmyV said:

lolobugg said:

after 32 pages....
this thread name should be changed to "Image That- we're still arguing..."
because I think the original meaning has been buried.

It is kind of telling that a thread intended to be about the quest for peace has erupted into a war.

I see it differently, the thread has evolved. It would have been long since dead without this evolution. I do not see anyone here wanting war......everyone posting here wants peace. They are debating how that peace is possible.

It was a debate started by Ed and continued by us.

Also if you feel like talking about any number of conflicts going on right now, feel free to do so. This is the place to do it.

Fair enough. I just think there are several other threads on this board where this same conversation is also ongoing. This was intended to be something different but it has been taken over.

Not that the points being made are not valid or worthwhile. They certainly are.

Byrnzie

BS44325 said:

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

Confirmed. A month ago Byrnzie and I went to town on each other over in the Falkland Island thread in AMT.

Not quite what I was getting at. (And I don't remember any Falkland Islands thread. Care to post a link to it?)

Earth to Brint I was making a joke.

Yeah, I figured that out. It was truly hilarious.

Byrnzie

eldarion75 said:

i just cant get over this...someone please make them stop

Whilst the Hamas and Al Qassam fighters hit the IDF again today killing four more of their soldiers, the cowardly Israeli's bomb another school killing 19 civilians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

Gaza: at least 19 killed and 90 injured as another UN school is hit

UN official condemns ‘in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces’

Wednesday 30 July 2014

At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.

Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.

He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.

“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.

“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”

It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”

.....

fuck

rr165892 said:

BS44325 said:

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.

Yep, keep trying to make this all about me, tough guy.

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.

That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.

BS44325 said:

I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas.

Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...

Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.

BS44325 said:

Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.

And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians?

No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.

Had to add this...

I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.

Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equation

Lol, what? Did you read what he wrote about Hamas? He's not "spot on". His analysis of Hamas is not even calling for Hamas to be part of the equation, it's calling for nothing short of genocide. The dehumanization of Hamas in his posts is so in your face, he doesn't even try to hide it. He talks as if Hamas exists outside of the Palestinian people, while it is part and parcel of Palestinian society. He says himself "any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then [though I think he means "than"] Hamas". He talks as if Hamas is made up of demons that crawled out of the Earth's crust to spread terror, as opposed to a resistance group made in reaction to decades of Israeli crimes against, oppression and occupation of the Palestinian people. He even has the audacity to speak on behalf of Palestinians (whom he calls "Gazans") by saying they want to be "rid of Hamas".

It's truly astonishing the manner in which people here not only keep insisting that this is a "two-sided" conflict (which it's not), but they have to take it one step further by demonizing the victim (the Palestinian people, by acting as if Hamas is outside of them) and victimizing the oppressor (Israel), without acknowledging the power imbalance or the fact that one side is in fact occupying the other. Reading everyone's posts here, we'd think Hamas is besieging the Israelis!

fuck

rr165892 said:

No political entity involved is without guilt here.Failing to see that will hold back the eventual peace that should come from this.

Would you have said this about the Black South Africans living under apartheid? At least we now know where you stand in these conflicts. History doesn't forget.

BS44325

Byrnzie said:

It's an occupation. Do you understand what that means? It means that one side is the occupier - an illegal occupier - and the other is the occupied. What part of that equation do you find so difficult to grasp?

And this is why the thread will go nowhere and why unfortunately we will have perpetual war.

badbrains

Byrnzie said:

eldarion75 said:

i just cant get over this...someone please make them stop

Whilst the Hamas and Al Qassam fighters hit the IDF again today killing four more of their soldiers, the cowardly Israeli's bomb another school killing 19 civilians.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

Gaza: at least 19 killed and 90 injured as another UN school is hit

UN official condemns ‘in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces’

Wednesday 30 July 2014

At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.

Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.

He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.

“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.

“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”

It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”

.....

How old or what grade do u have to be to understand what the fuck is really going on over there in Gaza? Report after report coming out with shit like this and people still make excuses for the "Israeli" government. Pictures after pictures of civilians, relief workers, animals, anything that fucken was alive at one time, murdered by Israel. When does your heart finally have that "wow" moment, the moment that moves you? When you say this is bullshit, this is a massacre and innocent men/women and CHILDREN are being killed for NO REASON. How old do you have to be? Do you have to be at least smarter then a 5th grader?

Edit- my post isn't directed at anyone in here directly, I'm generally speaking on what I've been seeing all over the network world.

fuck

JimmyV said:

fuck said:

Hi JimmyV,

I have some major issues with your post here. First and foremost is the inability to distinguish between "acceptable" and "understandable". But that point has been made by others, so I will not focus on that. My second major contention is your comparison of anti-semitism due to Israel's actions, with racism against Muslims following 9/11. The reason for this is that you are acting as though we live in a vacuum where all things are constant, all sides are equal, and there exists no power dynamic. This is not just you, so I apologize for focusing on my response on here to you, because many people here are committing this mistake.

You and others on here, from what I've skimmed, have mistakenly emphasized the "both sides" argument. I personally view this equivocation as minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians who live under a brutal Israeli occupation, and it actually is part of the "blame the victim" mentality that has plagued third party viewers of conflicts for far too long now.

Of course, despite how I feel about this, I understand where you're coming from with that mentality, but I do find it unacceptable. And I understand the worry about anti-semitism, because it is always a concern when people spout off intolerant views, which I concede some (few) pro-Palestinian voices hold. But from the way I read history, it is clear that intolerance that comes from a place of power (in which it can actually carry out ethnic cleansing, genocide, institute apartheid and so on) and intolerance that comes from a place of consistent victimization (which is what Palestinians, as the occupied, ethnically cleansed people are) are two very different things. Jews who lived under the Nazi Holocaust, African Americans who lived through slavery and Jim Crow, Blacks in South Africa and Irish Catholics all probably had some nasty things to say about their oppressors. As despicable as those views may be, because yes, they are equally racist and intolerant, they cannot be put on the same moral playing field as the racism of the US, South African, and British governments against those disenfranchised populations. This is similar to the racism Muslims faced following 9/11.

Now, what has been done here is that posters here have actually given credence to the accusation of anti-semitism, by addressing it over and over again and detracting from the main topic. It truly stuns me that when Eddie goes on a very angry anti-war rant where he specifically cites 1) crossing into land that doesn't belong to you and taking it, 2) our tax dollars being used to fund this, and 3) bombs being dropped on children, at a time when Israel's war on Gaza is the number 1 news story, and Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid (over $3billion a year), and pictures of murdered Palestinian children are on display worldwide, in a territory occupied by Israel (land taken that does not belong to them), well, it truly stuns me that such an angry rant is not seen as being directly about this. I guess it's just coincidence that Eddie happened to feel angry that night while the number 1 news story was about Israel's war on Gaza.

This was a backtrack on Eddie's part by refusing to talk about Palestine. Given the backlash people get for calling Israel out for its crimes, it's "understandable" he'd do that

But unacceptable. I hope he finally comes out in support of Palestinian rights soon enough. It was the same when people were waiting for celebrities to publicly support Black South African rights in the 80s. The time for this will come soon.

If racism is understandable in this particular case then racism is understandable in every case throughout history. Racists always believe they have legitimate reasons to feel the way they do. Jew, Muslim, Black, Asian...it doesn't matter what group is being hated, someone somewhere believes they are correct and just to do so. Understand, this isn't splitting hairs between understandable and acceptable. This is about rejecting racism in all manners, in all shapes and sizes, and in all practices. I thought we as a society had moved past this, and I have on a few occasions in these threads rejected claims of racist or anti-Semitic activity. In my opinion, it is a step backward to state that racism in this case or any other is understandable.

I stand by the 9/11 comparison. Every situation is different and of course not every situation is equal. That was never my point. However, the events of that day and the images from New York and Washington unleashed an ugliness in this and other countries that had festered for some time. The events in Gaza and the disgusting reactions from Israeli supporters around the world are having a similar effect. We can argue back and forth about the history and the power structure all you want. To my eye the trigger and the response are not entirely different.

If you read through my posts, when I speak of "sides" I am mostly referring to the sides of the argument represented here on this board, not on the ground in Israel and Gaza. Neither "side" here has represented itself entirely well, in my opinion. There have been insults and attacks fired both ways. It has been an oftentimes ugly exchange and there have been "sides" to it.

As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.

Again, you seem to think "understandable" means we can sympathize with racism. That's not at all what anyone here is suggesting. We are simply saying that we can comprehend it, the LITERAL definition of understand. How can we ever make any progress if we don't understand the roots of racism? You wanna understand the roots of modern anti-Semitism? Guess what, it's the fact that Israel insists on committing crimes in the name of the Jewish people, and insisting that it is in defense of them. That's why we have so many Jews who are speaking out against these crimes, because they see these repercussions. That's what people mean here. We aren't saying that this is justified. We are simply saying that it is logical that humanity will drive people to emotional hatred of someone (and their group, through generalization) who hurts them. It is by acknowledging this that we can try to move forward.

Let me ask you a question: Do you have children? When your child gets hurt, even a scrape on the arm from a fall, what emotions do you feel? When someone else pushes your kid on the ground, how do you react? How about you then multiply that, and take a look at the images coming out of Gaza, of parents holding their dead child in their arms, with their limbs or head blown off. Can you even comprehend the feelings they must be feeling? The thoughts that must be going through their minds? That was my whole point in my post: OF COURSE we categorically reject all racism. But the point is that it is the racism of those in power that ACTUALLY matters. You think Jews who reject Israel's crimes are hated by Arabs and Palestinians? Of course not. At the end of the day it is the occupation and crimes against humanity being committed that are the issue here, so let's get back to that.

BS44325

fuck said:

rr165892 said:

BS44325 said:

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.

Yep, keep trying to make this all about me, tough guy.

Byrnzie said:

BS44325 said:

You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.

That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.

BS44325 said:

I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas.

Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...

Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.

BS44325 said:

Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.

And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians?

No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.

Had to add this...

I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.

Hes spot on with the Hamas issue.It has to be part of the equation

Lol, what? Did you read what he wrote about Hamas? He's not "spot on". His analysis of Hamas is not even calling for Hamas to be part of the equation, it's calling for nothing short of genocide. The dehumanization of Hamas in his posts is so in your face, he doesn't even try to hide it. He talks as if Hamas exists outside of the Palestinian people, while it is part and parcel of Palestinian society. He says himself "any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then [though I think he means "than"] Hamas". He talks as if Hamas is made up of demons that crawled out of the Earth's crust to spread terror, as opposed to a resistance group made in reaction to decades of Israeli crimes against, oppression and occupation of the Palestinian people. He even has the audacity to speak on behalf of Palestinians (whom he calls "Gazans") by saying they want to be "rid of Hamas".

It's truly astonishing the manner in which people here not only keep insisting that this is a "two-sided" conflict (which it's not), but they have to take it one step further by demonizing the victim (the Palestinian people, by acting as if Hamas is outside of them) and victimizing the oppressor (Israel), without acknowledging the power imbalance or the fact that one side is in fact occupying the other. Reading everyone's posts here, we'd think Hamas is besieging the Israelis!

Let's hear from the Son of Hamas himself Mosab Hassan Yousef

http://youtu.be/KakxXN5Z-XI

fuck

As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.

Ignores history of his rants? Ok, how about this for history: Do you remember ONE time, in all the times he has ever ranted, that he followed up his rant at a concert with an eloquent, carefully worded written post to be shared widely across the internet to explain what he meant? No? Well why do you think he did it this time? What called for it? Oh, maybe it was all the pressure he felt from the pro-Israel lobby regarding his calling out of their illegal appropriation of Palestinian land and the fact that they are murdering children. Oh, and of course he asked that our tax dollars stop funding this. This isn't a backtrack per se in the sense that he contradicted himself -- it is a backtrack in that he was finally speaking up about one of the biggest injustices of the modern age, Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign of the Palestinians, and instead generalized his comments so as not to seem hurtful to the people justifying these crimes.

To insist that he WASN'T backtracking actually ignores the entire campaign by pro-Israel lobbyists pressuring artists to not speak out against Israel. Look at all the stories of celebrities who do. Either they stick by it (rare and courageous) or they backtrack.

fuck

I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.

No. His speech was directed at those like you defending Israel's crimes and demanding that artists stop "singling" Israel out, despite their committing one of the gravest crimes of the 20th century which continues to this day. We aren't representing a "side", except the side that demands an end to the oppression of Palestinians by a settler colonial power that not only occupies them, but continually murders them in cold blood by the thousands. To want an end to this is seeking "perpetual conflict"? What a twisted world you live in.