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Iraq

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    CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,224
    We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
    If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.
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    Jason PJason P Posts: 19,124
    The Kurds may be the solution. I didn't realize they were as well equiped as they are.
    Cosmo said:

    We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
    If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.

    Haven't we already taken the Shiite side? If the Iraqi army can make a kill only because we are spotting for them, that's not much difference then the US directly pulling the trigger. It's the semantic equivilent of soldier / advisor. I think we will either ramp up support in the future or seal a deal with Iran (which would be political suicide).

    It's interesting that the Kurds appear to have a Sunni majority but they are taking it to ISIS. They must follow the sane version of Sunni.
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    most, if not all, people on the train, GF, understand that Obama is not a perfect president. But you also have to remember all of the racist name calling this place saw at the hands of yourself and others when he first got elected. But most of us also understand that he is no more the president that started the Iraq war than Dwight Eisenhower was. Every president, to some degree, is measured by how they clean up the mess of their predecessor. And Obama's successor will be no different. But Bush was a whole different animal. He fucked up immeasurably. Also, no one is blaming all of America's woes on Bush. They are blaming it on decades of foreign policy. DECADES. But Bush's blunders were that all unto its own. To be fair, however, we don't have to imagine how any other president would have acted in the face of 9/11. Obama's reaction could have been worse. It could have been better. Bush's reaction to Obama's economy could have been worse. It could have been better. But we don't have the luxury of knowledge when it's all mere conjecture. In my opinion, Obama has been a far better president than Bush. Has he been one of the best? Nope. Has he been one of the worst? Also no. Fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, Obama has been able to accomplish very little because of Congress. They roadblocked every move he made. Why didn't that happen to Bush? Because everyone knows that the popular (if uneducated) position that Americans held at the time was pro-war and revenge-seeking. We all have the benefit of hindsight with his decisions, however, and he will forever be known as one of, if not the, worst and stupidest president in American history.
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    Cosmo said:

    Cosmo said:

    JP congrats on your debut novel !
    I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time?

    Godfather

    ...
    Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
    I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
    ...
    In other words:
    Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
    How does THAT work?
    ...
    well amigo that's because obama is in my opinion on sad ass excuse for an American....and beside when I called out "bashing America" that's because some on the train quoted "America is bad or sucks" and had nothing to do with that asshat you guys call the president" the guy a total blunder in the white house or don't you see that,everybody is quick to point out Bush's faults but calling out obama's faults is racism right ? or obama's blunders are blamed on Bush....a guy who has not been president for 6 or so years.

    Godfather.
    ...
    You still didn't answer the question...
    Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?

    You have your reasons why you don't like President Obama... which are pretty arbitrary, at best... but, you tell people who are critical of former President Bush (who are very specific in their criticism) that they are Bashing America. You would think that a rational person would understand tha being critial of a President... any President was either criticism against the President... or critical of America. I would just like to try to get an understanding of the mindset that only gets upset when the guy they didn't vote for is running the show.
    ...
    Also... can you do me a favor? Point me to the message where someone says, 'America is bad or sucks'. I'd like to respond to them.
    Thanx.
    GF thinks all muslims are bad. He thinks (or at one time thought) Obama was a muslim, or at the very least, a "muslim apologist". The puzzle is easy to put together.
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    badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255

    federal politics won't change until it is no longer reserved for the super rich.

    Exactly THIS
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    Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,737

    can we put one thing to rest once and for all, please? criticizing american foreign policy is not bashing america or hating on americans. it's criticizing the government! understand the difference! an example:

    1) Stephen Harper is an idiot
    2) Canadians are idiots

    see the difference? I don't take offense to #1!

    #1 actually makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :D
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    Can you tell me why? This is not a challenge, it is an honest question. I would like to hear the reason(s) why.

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    Hugh Freaking DillonHugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    edited June 2014
    Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
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    jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Thanks for that link, Hugh. It was an interesting read. I tend to agree with this guy: Historian Thomas Bailey describes the endeavor as trying to "measure the immeasurable".
    Way too hard to rank them. But Obama will be neither the best nor the worst. He's not that charismatic off script, he doesn't have any exceptional leadership qualities (ie can't rally the masses or the legislature), he has been largely ineffective. But he also hasn't tanked our economy, committed cimes in office, sent thousands of our troops to their deaths, etc... He's been average and will probably be remembered as such.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
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    Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    edited June 2014
    Jeffbr, you stole my thunder with that response. :))
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    callencallen Posts: 6,388
    edited June 2014
    Under Obama economy turning around from total mess. Repealed DADT. Equal rights for homosexuals. Mostly kept out of Libya, Syria, Egypt and trying to stay out of Iraq. Pulled troops out of Iraq and soon Afghanistan. Trying to get healthcare for all. Isn't messing with Colorado and Washington on MJ. All with congress fighting every step just to keep him from succeeding

    I know not perfect and you can disagree on some of his initiatives.

    Just imagine if Palin and McCain were in office.
    Post edited by callen on
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    CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,224
    Jason P said:

    The Kurds may be the solution. I didn't realize they were as well equiped as they are.

    Cosmo said:

    We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
    If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.

    Haven't we already taken the Shiite side? If the Iraqi army can make a kill only because we are spotting for them, that's not much difference then the US directly pulling the trigger. It's the semantic equivilent of soldier / advisor. I think we will either ramp up support in the future or seal a deal with Iran (which would be political suicide).

    It's interesting that the Kurds appear to have a Sunni majority but they are taking it to ISIS. They must follow the sane version of Sunni.
    ...
    I don't believe so. We tried to keep Iraq as one nation, even though there were internal voices that wanted Iraq split into 3 seperate states... based upon the relgious sects. The problem was... the oil. The Sunnis would be left out of the oil business because the oil is in the Kurdish region to the North and the Shi'ia region towards the East.
    The Shi'ita majority elected a Shi'ia rule (whoda thunkit?). This tossed the Sunnis out of power. And the al-Maliki government leans towards the majority. Al-Maliki has done little to bridge the rift with the Sunnis and has basically set up a Shi'ia driven government.
    That is what the fighting is about. I.S.I.S. wants a Sunni Islamic State in those sections of Iraq and Syria... similar to the Kurdish dream of a Kurdish state carved out of Iraq and Southern Turkey.
    ....
    You know what my solutions is? Take all of them fuckers in the Middle East (including Israel and Turkey)... lock them in a room with a map of the region... erase all of the border lines drawn up by the British all those years ago... and make them draw up a map they all can agree on. They all have to agree that Israel has a right to exist and Israel has to agree that if they argue the borders God gave them in Genesis... not the borders described to Moses in Numbers, they have to agree to take in the people who current live on those lands as part of their citizenry an also have a right to live there.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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    CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,224

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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    Cosmo said:

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

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    njnancynjnancy Northern New Jersey Posts: 5,096

    Cosmo said:

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

    What President are you speaking about?

    Every war that we have been involved with, including military actions, have caused the deaths of civilians. I'm not saying this is a good thing; just pointing out that some Presidents who are considered to be high on the list have been war time presidents, actually most.
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    CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,224

    Cosmo said:

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?
    ...
    Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
    From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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    Yes, it did. I guess i just dont attribute as much death to slavery as i do iraq. But i absolutely could be mistaken.
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    I must looked it up, and at least one sour e attributes 5 million deaths to slavery, so i was wrong.
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    ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2014
    No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
    They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
    Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

    Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

    Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
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    The Waiting Trophy ManThe Waiting Trophy Man Niagara region, Ontario, Canada Posts: 12,158
    ^^I like you
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,737
    edited June 2014
    Cosmo said:

    Cosmo said:

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?
    ...
    Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
    From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.
    Slavery in America went on for more than two centuries. Millions of Africans and African decedent s died as a direct result of the slave trade and slave procurement. Around 12 million people were stolen from Africa, 15% of them died just on the way over, not to mention all the Africans who were killed during raids in their own lands. And then all the slaves who were killed/worked/abuse to death after they arrived, and then generations after them - in the millions.

    As for Natives, well, they were pretty much decimated.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
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    njnancynjnancy Northern New Jersey Posts: 5,096
    Byrnzie said:

    No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
    They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
    Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

    Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

    Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.
    I began a response several times until I realized that there was nothing I could say that would matter. Wow.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,932
    Cosmo said:

    Cosmo said:

    I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

    ...
    From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
    Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
    ...
    George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.
    One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?
    ...
    Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
    From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.
    Source? Those numbers seem extreme to me. Not discounting your argument but I'd like to see where you came up with the numbers of dead.

    Peace.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,932
    Byrnzie said:

    No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
    They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
    Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

    Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

    Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.
    You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

    Peace.
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    ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2014

    You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

    Peace

    The ideal society? No idea. But maybe it'd be one that wasn't driven primarily by money and war, and whose leaders weren't driven solely by greed and lies.

    Maybe we can compare it to a country like, say, Finland?

    Though personally, my idea of an 'ideal society' would probably look more like a tribal - or semi-tribal - society that still lives in some sort of respectful relationship with it's environment. I recently watched a documentary called 'South Pacific' and they showed a society of people who live on an island called Anuta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuta
    There are no politicians on Anuta.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/tribes/anuta/
    'Concern for others is the backbone of Anutan philosophy. 'Aropa' is a concept for giving and sharing, roughly translated as compassion, love and affection. Aropa informs the way Anutans treat one another and it is demonstrated through the giving and sharing of material goods such as food. For example, the land on Anuta is shared among the family units so that each family can cultivate enough food to feed themselves and those around them.

    ...The young people of Anuta do not share all of the chiefs' opinions, but Anuta is one of the most isolated communities on earth so change happens slowly. At the moment the island is stable and balanced both socially and environmentally. The resources are sufficient to satisfy the population, and the attitude that the Anutans share for one another, aropa, promotes co-operation and sustainability.

    ...Due to its remote geographical location, Anuta's environment, traditions and culture have been well preserved. The Anutans value their traditional practices such as travelling in their hand-carved outriggers. The island provides an abundance of crops, fish, and a high quality water source from a natural spring; Anuta has successfully supported the dense population for centuries and will hopefully continue to do so.'



    Or maybe the Sng'oi of Malaysia - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892818662/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
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    ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2014
    njnancy said:

    I began a response several times until I realized that there was nothing I could say that would matter. Wow.

    Why? You don't think there are Americans more worthy of admiration than it's politicians?

    Why put the heads of politicians on Mount Rushmore? (By the way, that monument was created by a racist and a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and was built on land stolen from the Lakota Sioux).

    Many people are deluded in thinking that change comes from above - top-down. It doesn't. It almost always come from below. You think Lincoln was solely responsible for ending slavery? The abolitionist movement deserves more credit. Put the head of Frederick Douglas up on Mount Rushmore instead - or better still, pick a different place - one that isn't Indian sacred land.

    You want the head of a great American carved into a rock face? How about carving the head of Walt Whitman instead?

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
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    njnancynjnancy Northern New Jersey Posts: 5,096
    Byrnzie said:

    You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

    Peace

    The ideal society? No idea. But maybe it'd be one that wasn't driven primarily by money and war, and whose leaders weren't driven solely by greed and lies.

    Maybe we can compare it to a country like, say, Finland?

    Though personally, my idea of an 'ideal society' would probably look more like a tribal - or semi-tribal - society that still lives in some sort of respectful relationship with it's environment. I recently watched a documentary called 'South Pacific' and they showed a society of people who live on an island called Anuta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuta
    There are no politicians on Anuta.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/tribes/anuta/
    'Concern for others is the backbone of Anutan philosophy. 'Aropa' is a concept for giving and sharing, roughly translated as compassion, love and affection. Aropa informs the way Anutans treat one another and it is demonstrated through the giving and sharing of material goods such as food. For example, the land on Anuta is shared among the family units so that each family can cultivate enough food to feed themselves and those around them.

    ...The young people of Anuta do not share all of the chiefs' opinions, but Anuta is one of the most isolated communities on earth so change happens slowly. At the moment the island is stable and balanced both socially and environmentally. The resources are sufficient to satisfy the population, and the attitude that the Anutans share for one another, aropa, promotes co-operation and sustainability.

    ...Due to its remote geographical location, Anuta's environment, traditions and culture have been well preserved. The Anutans value their traditional practices such as travelling in their hand-carved outriggers. The island provides an abundance of crops, fish, and a high quality water source from a natural spring; Anuta has successfully supported the dense population for centuries and will hopefully continue to do so.'



    Or maybe the Sng'oi of Malaysia - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892818662/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Will they allow you to bring a laptop to the Anutan community? And when the resources begin to dwindle, I would imagine a leadership would need to be formed in order to preserve the well-being of the society. The beginning of a government.

    You could live in an 'off the grid' community also - there are varied ones from which to choose.

    As far as an ideal society, on paper they sound great; in practice, there is no such thing as ideal in any society. Human beings are imperfect; so a lot of us try to better ourselves knowing that we will never reach perfection. Actually what makes us flawed so many times is what shapes us and makes us interesting.

    Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama. :D
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    ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    njnancy said:

    Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama. :D

    It's only a rock face. I don't think it'll feel any pain.

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    njnancynjnancy Northern New Jersey Posts: 5,096
    Byrnzie said:

    njnancy said:

    Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama. :D

    It's only a rock face. I don't think it'll feel any pain.

    >:) And they'll be more room for Obama!
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