Iraq

dignin

Byrnzie said:

njnancy said:

Europe, especially, has been allowing us to do the dirty work for decades and decades.

Like you did a good thing by invading Iraq and Afghanistan? Are you suggesting that you've been doing Europe a favour with your foreign policy? It was your foreign policy that caused 9/11. And If you think you've been doing Europe a favour, tell that to the families of those killed in the blow-back terror attacks in London and Madrid.

Let us not forget that Britain was a more than willing partner in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Godfather.

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?

Godfather.

brianlux

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?

Godfather.

We bash (I would call it criticize) because we are frustrated by knowing well how much better we could be.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?

Godfather.

98% of the people on this website are americans. why wouldn't they comment on their own government more than other governments? should I be asking you why you don't frequent the discussions of other governments as well, like the Israel situation, or the Canadian politics thread, etc? it's the same thing.

democracy does not work without political debate to enact change.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

also, there's no other government in the world that sticks its nose in the affairs of other nations more than the US, FOR BETTER OR WORSE. FACT. why do you take it personally when someone is criticizing your government? no one is bashing the american people. just those they elected.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

also, there's no other government in the world that sticks its nose in the affairs of other nations more than the US, FOR BETTER OR WORSE. FACT. why do you take it personally when someone is criticizing your government? no one is bashing the american people. just those they elected.

I believe the U.S sticks in's nose out because it sends billions each year in aid to those countries,you might say we have a vested interest LOL!!

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Godfather. said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

also, there's no other government in the world that sticks its nose in the affairs of other nations more than the US, FOR BETTER OR WORSE. FACT. why do you take it personally when someone is criticizing your government? no one is bashing the american people. just those they elected.

I believe the U.S sticks in's nose out because it sends billions each year in aid to those countries,you might say we have a vested interest LOL!!

Godfather.

just to humour this preposterous statement: if aid comes with self-serving conditions, then it's not aid. it's loan sharking. giving to charity does not give you control of the recipients.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Godfather. said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

also, there's no other government in the world that sticks its nose in the affairs of other nations more than the US, FOR BETTER OR WORSE. FACT. why do you take it personally when someone is criticizing your government? no one is bashing the american people. just those they elected.

I believe the U.S sticks in's nose out because it sends billions each year in aid to those countries,you might say we have a vested interest LOL!!

Godfather.

just to humour this preposterous statement: if aid comes with self-serving conditions, then it's not aid. it's loan sharking. giving to charity does not give you control of the recipients.

and yet they take/demand it and ask for more and that is one reason why the U.S (as you say) sticks their nose in their business, they want money and weapons so we make them a deal,they want a rebel or government leader ousted..we make them a deal.. so the bottom line is if you can't follow the rules of the deal then don't ask.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

to my knowledge, the US has only ever made "deals" with groups to oust a leader because it serves the American agenda (and Canada has only done so out of loyalty/pressure to the US). I was proud of Canada for not going to Iraq. I've made this example countless times, but I'll do so again: why is it the US only "helps" the middle east and not the citizens of African nations? one word: oil. Africa has none. So the US doesn't give two shits. Yeah, they throw money at them, but they have not nor will they ever invade to "help" them. Not unless there is immense pressure from the global community. and there won't be, because africa has very little impact on global financials. simple as that.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

and what deals are you referring to? and what rules of these deals have these groups gone back on?

PJ_Soul

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

njnancy

Jason P said:

I'm pretty sure we still have a draft, it's just not exercised currently.

You are absolutely correct. Males are still required to register with the selective service within 30 days of their 18th birthday. We just haven't had that database utilized since, I believe, Vietnam. For women to be required to also register would take a Constitutional amendment passed by the Congress. I was explaining the registration process to my 16 year old son a couple of weeks ago; he had never heard of it (no clue what the Cold War was either; but education and NCLB is for another thread).

Byrnzie said:

njnancy said:

Europe, especially, has been allowing us to do the dirty work for decades and decades.

Like you did a good thing by invading Iraq and Afghanistan? Are you suggesting that you've been doing Europe a favour with your foreign policy? It was your foreign policy that caused 9/11. And If you think you've been doing Europe a favour, tell that to the families of those killed in the blow-back terror attacks in London and Madrid.

'I' did not invade anything. Afghanistan is a completely different topic than Iraq. If you look at my avatar, you understand that I and my son were in the midst of the attacks on 9/11 and I had absolutely no opposition to going after Al Queda in Afghanistan. That was a direct response to being attacked. We did not invade Afghanistan; we were there to kill the scumbags who turned lower Manhattan into a parking lot, attacked the Pentagon and killed innocent citizens in those buildings and areas and on 4 planes. That was a declaration of war. Then the administration used this tragedy to invade Iraq, taking their eye off the mission in Afghanistan. I am not pro-war and I did not agree with those who were in charge of this country from 2000-2008; however, I stood behind my President when the Afghanistan offensive began. Yes, I knew people who died that day; everyone around here knows someone who died that day and knows plenty of people who are affected by the events - we watched it happen in front of us. I can empathize with the families who had losses due to the actions of TERRORISTS in Madrid & London & many more places. "i" do not need to explain anything to families who were victims of terrorism; perhaps someone would like to explain it to me. So, whenever there is a terrorist attack, it is America's fault; not the fault of brainwashed people bent on killing innocent people for, what cause??? Oh yeah, America sucks so we should all die. My son built skyscrapers with lego blocks and then would take a toy plane and smash them all for a good two years; while asking me if the plane was flying over our house again. We didn't know where my brother in law was for two days. And we lost friends, co-workers, acquaintances. My mother called me from work right after the first plane hit - the women she worked with had a total of 13 children working in the Towers that day. They all died - and i was the one who told them when the second plane hit and the buildings went down. Please know how inflammatory a statement can be before pressing enter.

As far as 'my foreign policy', it caused a bunch of people who take the Quran and completely misinterpret it for their extremist positions to declare war on WESTERN SOCIETY. American is the easiest one to point out, but most European countries have a society they despise, along with Australia and basically any country who doesn't believe what they believe.. . Did they hate that we went into Iraq during the first Gulf War - infidels on their land - yes. We were asked by Kuwait to help from being overthrown. So we did that and came home. I am not a Middle Eastern expert but I am more informed than some; perhaps simply because I think that politics - both domestic and foreign, are crucial in understanding the world. Politics, current events, foreign policy (which sounds so odd as the world gets ever smaller, it seems) have always consumed me - caused the direction of my education and affects what i view, read, think about.

I wrote more in response, but the 9/11 statement has put me in a mind set that should pass before posting more.

Also - when I speak of a country, area, continent - I am referencing the government, not the people.

Godfather.

PJ_Soul said:

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

Gimmi her is an example of the deals I'm talking about,surly you don't think this is free,I just can't believe favors like this would come without a price.


Godfather.

njnancy

PJ_Soul said:

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

Thanks PJ, That was part of what i wrote and deleted. America is constantly asked for help from oppressed groups, countries, regions. The chances of us bombing for Al-Maliki is close to nil, there is no way we can do so without it going badly. Plus, he has been an uncompromising dictator who basically said get the hell out. So we're out. Forget our phone number please. Perhaps another country could be called this time.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

PJ_Soul said:

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

Gimmi her is an example of the deals I'm talking about,surly you don't think this is free,I just can't believe favors like this would come without a price.


Godfather.

Seems to me that the US owes them. These insurgents probably wouldn't be a problem if the US hadn't invaded in the first place. I am not saying there wouldn't be deals, but I'm not ready to make that assumption absolutely either, since this is brand new information and I have nothing to base that on so far. I mean, I'm sure the US government thinks it's in their interests to help without any new deals.... obviously, all existing deals aren't going anywhere.

PJ_Soul

njnancy said:

PJ_Soul said:

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

Thanks PJ, That was part of what i wrote and deleted. America is constantly asked for help from oppressed groups, countries, regions. The chances of us bombing for Al-Maliki is close to nil, there is no way we can do so without it going badly. Plus, he has been an uncompromising dictator who basically said get the hell out. So we're out. Forget our phone number please. Perhaps another country could be called this time.

Yeah, well I'm very interested to see where this goes. I think it will be hard for the US to say no given the fact that they ultimately caused most of the problem.

badbrains

It's amazing how some people only look at things through their own eyes. One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter. Until we and I mean "we" all start to really understand what the fuck is really going on, we are nothing but opinions. I knew 2 people that died on 911 as did most people on the east coast. But 911 wasn't the first strike in this fucken bullshit game these fucken evil people of ALL sides play. If you think these lunatic Islamic "terrorists" just woke up one day and said fuck it let's attack America because they're "free" then you need more teaching and learning then most. Remember this, America has caused 911 all around the world for some time now. I want to state that when I say America, I mean the leaders of our country. Yes America is a great country of great people, BUT, the leaders we are suckered into believing are nothing more then money hungry monsters. And that goes for all other leaders in the world who allow fucked up shit to happen to good people.

And someone mentioned the first gulf war. From what I read and understand, saddam told bush sr he was going into Kuwait and got permission. Now what happened after that, well, that's where it gets fishy. I heard Kuwait gave our government a blank check and said get him out. Who really knows?

Sometimes if you look real hard and critically think,'you'll be able to understand some of what is going on. Sometimes it's even as easy as black and white.

As for Iraq now, we DO owe them. We owe them more then we'll ever know or repay. But let's start with an honest helping hand. Not a fuck in the ass with no vasoline. Sorry for the graphic description but I'm so sick of this war. And I'm sick of all this bullshit. Enough. This fucken polluted era of life has to change! For all of us.

My $.02

njnancy

badbrains said:

It's amazing how some people only look at things through their own eyes. One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter. Until we and I mean "we" all start to really understand what the fuck is really going on, we are nothing but opinions. I knew 2 people that died on 911 as did most people on the east coast. But 911 wasn't the first strike in this fucken bullshit game these fucken evil people of ALL sides play. If you think these lunatic Islamic "terrorists" just woke up one day and said fuck it let's attack America because they're "free" then you need more teaching and learning then most. Remember this, America has caused 911 all around the world for some time now. I want to state that when I say America, I mean the leaders of our country. Yes America is a great country of great people, BUT, the leaders we are suckered into believing are nothing more then money hungry monsters. And that goes for all other leaders in the world who allow fucked up shit to happen to good people.

And someone mentioned the first gulf war. From what I read and understand, saddam told bush sr he was going into Kuwait and got permission. Now what happened after that, well, that's where it gets fishy. I heard Kuwait gave our government a blank check and said get him out. Who really knows?

Sometimes if you look real hard and critically think,'you'll be able to understand some of what is going on. Sometimes it's even as easy as black and white.

As for Iraq now, we DO owe them. We owe them more then we'll ever know or repay. But let's start with an honest helping hand. Not a fuck in the ass with no vasoline. Sorry for the graphic description but I'm so sick of this war. And I'm sick of all this bullshit. Enough. This fucken polluted era of life has to change! For all of us.

My $.02

I think that most people in this thread are critically thinking. Just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that their critical thinking is flawed - they have just drawn different conclusions than you.

I mentioned the Gulf War - in relation to it pissing off Al Queda that we 'the infidels' were on their land. Where did you read that Sadam gave Bush Sr. the heads up that he was going to invade Kuwait?

You think I need more teaching and learning than most? Thanks, that's attacking me - not the issue. i didn't say attack them because they're 'free', they hate the whole idea of our society. But insulting me 3 times in a thread, because you believe that you're opinion is better is not the way to lead a healthy debate.

I am FAR from misinformed, lemming-like or stupid. Don't make assumptions about people - we all be thinking with different brains - intolerance for that is just like intolerance in other parts of the world. I am sorry for your losses on 9/11. You should learn empathy as well, it is part of how people heal and come together.

I posted my opinion - disagree with that - but insulting or belittling me does not forward the conversation in the least.

Editted cause it doesn't matter. Carry on, enjoy.

callen

Hey BB. Like to see some backup on bush giving saddam go ahead on Kuwait.

All about the control of oil/$$$$.

Last-12-Exit

PJ_Soul said:

Godfather. said:

PJ_Soul said:

Iraq has officially asked the US to help with air stikes.

Gimmi her is an example of the deals I'm talking about,surly you don't think this is free,I just can't believe favors like this would come without a price.


Godfather.

Seems to me that the US owes them. These insurgents probably wouldn't be a problem if the US hadn't invaded in the first place. I am not saying there wouldn't be deals, but I'm not ready to make that assumption absolutely either, since this is brand new information and I have nothing to base that on so far. I mean, I'm sure the US government thinks it's in their interests to help without any new deals.... obviously, all existing deals aren't going anywhere.

It is completely and utterly absurd to think that the United States owes Iraq support because we caused the terrorists to terrorize. No matter how ignorant GWB and DC motivations were for invading Iraq, it's done and over with. I've said it before, we toppled Saddam, then we're not welcome there anymore. Regardless of GW's lack of an exit strategy, the United states spent millions of dollars training the Iraqi military and police to protect themselves from this very threat. We helped that country put together their version of a democracy. So when we were ever so politely told to leave, that left the burden of responsibility to protect Iraq on Iraq.