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America's Gun Violence

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to 4 of these.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to 4 of these.
    I’d agree with all of it! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    I don’t have the link but on MSNBC they showed a screen shot of his Facebook pg showing that he was pissed at people treating him disrespectful because of him being a Muslim, it would take a special parent to teach the policeman’s kids not to hate Muslim’s after one took their dad from them, like I said this is a vicious cycle that would take a monumental effort to brake! In the meantime the massacres will keep on happening..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to 4 of these.
    I’d agree with all of it! 
    As I have mentioned before, people that dislike guns want complete lockdown on them to make it impossible to obtain.  I understand that and why I'm against it.

  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,037
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,733
    edited March 24
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    First it's nice to see a gun owner/hunter who gets it.
    Second I agree with all of your suggestions but understand why some would not.
    Third I lived for a few years in Baltimore City at the end of the 90s. I experienced,  heard, saw gun violence and it's aftermath firsthand. I saw what a .45 does does to the human body. I never once was scared enough or felt the need to buy a gun.
    Fourth I lived in the mountains of Colorado near Boulder for 4.5 years. Had many instances to interact with bears, mountain lion, etc. Not once did I feel I needed a gun.
    The Boulder shooter should never have been able to walk into a shop and walk out with a gun. Any gun.

    Things need to change.
     
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 6,179
    edited March 24
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to 4 of these.
    I agree with the first, 4th, and last two bullet points for laws already on the books.  Not sold on the rest.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,424
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    Train them young then too.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,424
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    Train them young then too.
    Or don't. And then let them decide when they are adults if they need a gun. The same way religion should be.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    eddiec said:
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    Train them young then too.
    Or don't. And then let them decide when they are adults if they need a gun. The same way religion should be.
    You know how many people hunt and view it as a right of passage?  States have schools off on the first day of deer season.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,424
    eddiec said:
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    Train them young then too.
    Or don't. And then let them decide when they are adults if they need a gun. The same way religion should be.
    You know how many people hunt and view it as a right of passage?  States have schools off on the first day of deer season.
    I'm fine with that. 
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,037
    edited March 24
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    I don't agree with banning ideas. Who decides which ideas to ban? If they follow all the laws of gun sales and transfers, gun shows should be allowed. I don't agree with the gun show loopholes, and not all states allows those loopholes.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,037
    edited March 24
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    And to the first point, how is that right? If you're rich enough to hire a personal bodyguard you get firearm protection. If you have a clean record and proper training, but not the money, you dont? Conceal carry shouldn't be just for the rich who can afford to pay someone. 
    The jewelry store owner should be allowed to be armed. The coin collector who has a booth at a coin show with $500,000 of merchandise he carries to his car should be allowed to be armed. Same with the watch collector, or the store owner making a large cash deposit. Not just the rich who can pay someone else to do it. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,424
    mace1229 said:
    eddiec said:
    mace1229 said:
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    I would agree to the majority. The ones I wouldn't...
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws: All? So this would include personal body guards, off duty police, etc?
    - ban gun shows: Why? If private sales need the same paper work and background checks as a dealer, whats wrong with a gun show then?
    - mandatory insurance: would need to know more what that looks like.
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds: Don't agree with banning all semi automatic. You're left with what, basically a revolver, bolt action or lever action then as your main options? Why the 3 round limit if there's no semi automatic? I don't even agree with an "assualt rifle" ban because that creates loopholes where they change a feature to not make it fit the definition. Ban the futures about assualt rifles that make them deadlier. Ban detachable magazines for rifles, limit the magazine capacity to 6 or 8.
    -Red flag law: Like the idea, but need ot make sure it is written correctly. Making it too broad would and unclear would not be good.
    -Exclude personal bodyguards and off-duty police.
    -Yes, ban gun shows. They promote the idea that our nation is a gun society. That is one of the fundamental things that need to change. I went to hunting/fishing shows as a kid. I loved looking at all the guns. It's a complete 'start 'em young' concept.

    And to the first point, how is that right? If you're rich enough to hire a personal bodyguard you get firearm protection. If you have a clean record and proper training, but not the money, you dont? Conceal carry shouldn't be just for the rich who can afford to pay someone. 
    The jewelry store owner should be allowed to be armed. The coin collector who has a booth at a coin show with $500,000 of merchandise he carries to his car should be allowed to be armed. Same with the watch collector, or the store owner making a large cash deposit. Not just the rich who can pay someone else to do it. 
    Agreed- there should be exceptions to such a measure. There are definitely cases that might warrant a perceived need to carry. Hashing that out is part of the process. (But a process that many seem unwilling to do.) In the initial post about this, I took it as referring to anybody wanting to carry just because they can. 


  • cutzcutz Posts: 10,083

    They Had Muskets; We Have AR-15s – The Two Can Barely Be Compared

    The types of guns available at that time were very different from the AR-15s and other semi- and fully-automatic weapons we see on the news these days. In 1791, common guns included muskets and flintlock pistols.

    According to the Washington Post, a "Typical Revolutionary-era musket" had a one-round magazine capacity, and it could fire around three effective rounds per minute – in the hands of the most skilled wielder. It's maximum accuracy range had to be within 50 meters. Compare this to a "Typical modern-day AR-15," which has a magazine capacity of 30 rounds, has an effective fire of 45 rounds a minute, and an accuracy range of 550 meters.

    These are vastly different weapons.


    Firearms In 1791 Were Wildly Inaccurate

    Besides only holding one round at a time, the guns of the 1790s had a very low level of accuracy and incredibly short ranges. Not only that either – muskets of the period, including the Brown Bess and Charleville, had no sights at all, aside from an affixed bayonet that one could look down while preparing to shoot. 

    As Hugh T. Harrington explains in the Journal of the American Revolution

    "Normally, the shooter would look down the barrel and align his rear sight (the sight closest to his face) with the front sight and with the target. This cannot be done with the musket since there is no rear sight. Without a rear sight the shooter’s eyeball acts as the rear sight. That would not be a problem if the eyeball could always be placed exactly in the same place each time the musket was fired. But, it cannot be done."

    On top of not having sights, muskets had smooth bore barrels, which made their projectiles less stable in flight than those fired from modern rifles.

  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 322
    I’m sure someone else may have said this (sorry) but the 2nd amendment was written when we still shot our own food. I’m not against the 2nd amendment but it’s antiquated.  It needs updated. This will never, ever change in the US so get used to mass shootings, etc. 
  • cutzcutz Posts: 10,083
    ^^That's why I Posted what I did above your Post.^^

    Do we have the gun laws of Today if they knew what type of guns we have today?
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    cutz said:

    They Had Muskets; We Have AR-15s – The Two Can Barely Be Compared

    The types of guns available at that time were very different from the AR-15s and other semi- and fully-automatic weapons we see on the news these days. In 1791, common guns included muskets and flintlock pistols.

    According to the Washington Post, a "Typical Revolutionary-era musket" had a one-round magazine capacity, and it could fire around three effective rounds per minute – in the hands of the most skilled wielder. It's maximum accuracy range had to be within 50 meters. Compare this to a "Typical modern-day AR-15," which has a magazine capacity of 30 rounds, has an effective fire of 45 rounds a minute, and an accuracy range of 550 meters.

    These are vastly different weapons.


    Firearms In 1791 Were Wildly Inaccurate

    Besides only holding one round at a time, the guns of the 1790s had a very low level of accuracy and incredibly short ranges. Not only that either – muskets of the period, including the Brown Bess and Charleville, had no sights at all, aside from an affixed bayonet that one could look down while preparing to shoot. 

    As Hugh T. Harrington explains in the Journal of the American Revolution

    "Normally, the shooter would look down the barrel and align his rear sight (the sight closest to his face) with the front sight and with the target. This cannot be done with the musket since there is no rear sight. Without a rear sight the shooter’s eyeball acts as the rear sight. That would not be a problem if the eyeball could always be placed exactly in the same place each time the musket was fired. But, it cannot be done."

    On top of not having sights, muskets had smooth bore barrels, which made their projectiles less stable in flight than those fired from modern rifles.

    Thank God the constitution evolves just like the rest of the world does or a bunch of our rights wouldn't transcend to todays life...
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    cutz said:
    ^^That's why I Posted what I did above your Post.^^

    Do we have the gun laws of Today if they knew what type of guns we have today?
    There are constantly evolving gun laws.  The states take up most of that burden now.  Don't like them?  Vote out your current civil leaders who are in office that will.

    The country is too partisan to enact laws that would appease both sides yet alone one side.
  • jerparker20jerparker20 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,108
    Well I’m glad to see some civilized discourse going on. More so than “thoughts and prayers” or “good guys with a gun” nonsense.

    Maybe I should have proposed the points I made earlier as suggestions. What I was getting at is that ability for literally anyone to obtain firearms in this country is out of hand, as is the type of weaponry that is easily accessible. There needs to be changes, not everyone will like them, but so be it. 

    Side note: I listened to a podcast this afternoon from VICE related to arming teachers (which is just safety theater). Anyways, one of the instructors at a firearm training threw this gem of a quote out there:
    “ ... always remember the three P’s when interacting with people, be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you encounter.”  There was more as well. I can’t imagine going through life being that paranoid.
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    Well I’m glad to see some civilized discourse going on. More so than “thoughts and prayers” or “good guys with a gun” nonsense.

    Maybe I should have proposed the points I made earlier as suggestions. What I was getting at is that ability for literally anyone to obtain firearms in this country is out of hand, as is the type of weaponry that is easily accessible. There needs to be changes, not everyone will like them, but so be it. 

    Side note: I listened to a podcast this afternoon from VICE related to arming teachers (which is just safety theater). Anyways, one of the instructors at a firearm training threw this gem of a quote out there:
    “ ... always remember the three P’s when interacting with people, be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you encounter.”  There was more as well. I can’t imagine going through life being that paranoid.
    Well said. 

  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 322
    cutz said:
    ^^That's why I Posted what I did above your Post.^^

    Do we have the gun laws of Today if they knew what type of guns we have today?
    Holly crap I totally missed that. Sooo sorry!  I’ve been just so pissed about another shooting I was just posting without reading. 🙃
  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 4,343
    Chicago could sure use some gun control. Damn. What the fuck is going on in this country. 
  • jerparker20jerparker20 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,108
    For some context on this ruling: Judge Bybee is no pinko, hippie liberal, activist judge. He was appointed by W. Bush. His appointment was in return for being the DOJ attorney who signed off on the approval of “advanced interrogation techniques” by the CIA post 9/11. 

    A friend of my family clerked for him, and Bybee officiated his wedding. I spent a good 30 minutes chatting with him during the reception. Had no idea who the guy was until I got home and googled him.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,965

    The gun implicated in Boulder uses the same ammunition as an AR-15. It’s legally a pistol.


    Seized firearms are displayed at the San Francisco Police Department headquarters in 2019. The middle firearm is an AR-15-style pistol. The firearm on the left is an AR-15-style rifle. (Haven Daley/AP)
    March 24 at 8:04 PM

    In a promotional video for the Ruger AR-556, a company product manager gushed that the weapon, legally designated as a pistol but closer to an AR-15 rifle in design, offered much more than a typical handgun.

    The compact body features the same rail system as wildly popular AR-15-style rifles, he noted, allowing owners to attach accessories like optics and flashlights, and its short barrel makes for easy transport.

    “It’s still great for all the applications of a pistol — or a rifle,” the Ruger staffer said in the 2019 video.

    Two key components that help define what a rifle is, the barrel and the stock, have been altered by firearm manufacturers to circumvent existing gun laws, critics have said, producing a weapon that functions much like a rifle but is legally classified as a pistol. That affects how they are bought, sold and regulated.

    The result is the AR-15-style pistol. The weapon, championed by some gun enthusiasts but relatively obscure among the general public, has become more visible following the massacre Monday in Boulder, Colo., in which a gunman killed 10 people in a grocery store.

    The suspect bought a Ruger AR-556 days before the killings, police wrote in an arrest affidavit. They noted that they recovered a protective vest, a rifle and a handgun but did not say whether either was the Ruger.

    What is an AR-15-style pistol?

    AR-15-style pistols are a broad type of weapon that includes the Ruger. The firearms are modeled after semiautomatic rifles and have similar mechanisms.

    The pistols even use the same ammunition and magazines as their AR-15-style rifle counterparts. That ammunition travels much faster and with more energy compared with common pistol rounds like the 9mm and are known to create more serious wounds, researchers and physicians have said.

    AR-15-style pistols have much shorter barrels than typical rifles. For example, Ruger’s AR-556 pistol models have barrels between 9.5 and 10.5 inches, or about half-a-foot shorter than its rifle cousin. A shorter barrel will reduce some muzzle velocity.

    The lack of a stock is another factor that lets AR-15-style pistols skirt the definition of a rifle. They are sold either with nothing attached or with a stabilizing brace that helps the operator secure the weapon to the forearm for one-handed firing, like a typical pistol.

    However, the brace can also be used to shoulder the rifle like a regular stock, as shown in videos, making the pistol function essentially no different from a rifle.

    The platform has been used in other mass shootings. A gunman in Dayton, Ohio, killed nine people in 2019 with an AR-15-style pistol.

    Why do stocks and barrels matter?

    Shorter barrels are favored in the military, law enforcement and elsewhere because they can easily fit into vehicles, lessen the chance of snagging on doorways and generally make a weapon more compact, said Doug Parisi, a former police captain. Some people use AR-15-style pistols as a “truck gun,” or a compact weapon to keep in a vehicle.

    That compact size, especially of a rifle-type pistol, makes the weapon more easily concealed in a coat or a bag. And a barrel with six inches less physical space makes it harder for someone to grab or knock away when it is raised, compared with a typical rifle.

    What is a rifle-style pistol?

    The shooter in Boulder purchased a relatively

    new type of gun that is legally classified as a

    pistol but functions more like an AR-15-style rifle.

    Rifle

    Barrel length

    About 16 inches

    Traditional stock

    Overall length

    32 to 36 inches

    About 6 to 8 lbs.

    Weight

    Muzzle

    velocity

    About 3,200 feet per second

    Rifle-style pistol

    About 10 inches

    An optional brace can hold the gun to the

    forearm or can be rested against the

    shoulder like a stock.

    25 to 29 inches

    About 5 to 7 lbs.

    Weight

    Muzzle

    velocity

    About 2,500 feet per second*

    (compared with 1,200 fps for a

    typical 9 mm handgun)

    * 10.5-inch barrel

    Sources: Various manufacturers' websites; average

    velocities from American Rifleman (rifle-style pistol),

    Federation of American Scientists (9mm handgun)

    and Bushmaster (rifle)

    BONNIE BERKOWITZ AND ADRIÁN BLANCO/THE WASHINGTON POST

    If a shooter had designs of entering and moving around a store, a compact weapon would be appealing, said Parisi, now a director of training at SafeDefend, which teaches safety courses, including active-shooter scenarios. However, witnesses told police the suspect shot people outside, making it less clear whether he intended to conceal it, Parisi said.

    The National Firearms Act regulates rifles with barrels shorter than 16 inches more strictly than regular rifles because their potential concealment is a danger, according to a former special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The 1934 law was aimed at gangland criminals who concealed short-barrel weapons, like the Thompson submachine gun and sawed-off shotguns.

    Buying a short-barrel rifle requires a lengthy background check that could take months and includes fingerprints, a photo, purchase from a specialized dealer and a $200 tax, according to the former agent, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

    But AR-15-style pistols aren’t defined as short-barrel rifles.

    “It’s treated just like a Glock,” the former agent said. “But it’s not just a Glock.”

    Why do these exist?

    There are some legitimate applications, Parisi said, including for security professionals who protect dignitaries or public figures and need something powerful but easily concealed and carried around. The weapons are popular in Latin America for that reason, he said.

    The legal status of the pistol also helps eliminate hurdles when security guards in the United States travel across state lines that may regulate rifles differently, he said.

    But for typical consumers, it’s a question of novelty of a different kind of gun and familiarity with the platform of the AR-15, which is the most popular gun in the country. Other gun enthusiasts may be drawn to AR-15-style pistols as an act of defiance of the federal regulations it is designed to challenge.

    “It shows you can bend the rules regardless of how many rules are out there,” Parisi said.

    What are regulators and officials doing about AR-15-style pistols?

    The ATF in December sought to examine how braces, like the kind used with the Ruger, affect the classification of a firearm. The agency abandoned its proposal days later after a public outcry from gun advocates.

    The city of Boulder passed an ordinance banning assault-style weapons in 2018, but it was overturned in court 10 days before the killings.

    The language included restrictions for AR-15-style pistols, but is unclear whether the suspect purchased it in the city or elsewhere.



    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,965
    dayton shooter had similar shit
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    dankind said:
    Why is your wife taking a handgun and throwing it in a trashcan?  Why has it mysteriously disappeared from where you put it?
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