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America's Gun Violence

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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,689
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,978
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mace1229 said:
    honest question. why was he not shot dead? police kill unarmed people all the time. but this guy gets to walk out of there. i am so fucking sick of it.
    It seems like these often either end in suicide or without incident. Like the Aurora theater shooter, was found unarmed by his car awaiting police I believe. I don’t know if that is what happened here, but if it is, you can’t expect police to go shoot someone in the head no matter what they just did.

    tell that to the black community
    Can you share a story where a black person , while sitting quietly, was shot in t head? That was the question here, why was he not shot in the head. Every incident of an unarmed black man getting killed was escalated through resisting arrest. That doesn’t mean it was okay or that I’m defending the police in those cases. Just saying there’s a difference between that and someone like James Holmes who sat quietly and awaited arrest.
    I don’t know what happened here, the last press conference I heard the police wouldn’t even say if the shooter was injured or not. And my response was based on previous shooters who gave themselves up before police even arrived. If you can provide a single story where instead of trying to make an arrest that lead to a struggle, the police just shot a black man in the head without an incident then I’m wrong here.
    But if this shooter had given himself up, black or white, you can’t honestly expect police to just walk up and shoot him in the head at the scene as was suggested.
    He wasn't  sitting down and he wasn't shot in the head but you get the point. 
    Or will you?
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-life-prison-sentence-killing-college-campus-75260753
    In the topic of why wasn’t he shot in the head, no I don’t get the point. And he was seated and apparently unarmed. “ Urbanski then pocketed the knife and sat down on a bench until police arrived and arrested him at the bus stop.”
    So I’m not sure what this has to do with this conversation? Are you expecting police to just walk up and shoot him in the head? Do you think that would be the case if the races were reversed? If that was your point then I have to strongly disagree. 
    My posting of he article was that a white guy killed an innocent black guy who was waiting for a bus on campus.
    And of course the UMCP didn't kill the white guy.
    So you think the police should have just walked up behind him and shot him in the head, even though he had put the knife away and was seated and gave himself up without incident? Or do you think if the scenario was the same, if he was black, they would have done that? They would not have just walked up and shot a black man in the back of the head who appeared to be unarmed without any incident. 
    That does not mean there aren't issues with race and police. The other examples given, Tamir Rice and Philando, the cop thought he was armed or going for a weapon. Those shootings were still wrong, and I'm guessing if they were white the cop would have waited the extra 2 seconds it would have taken to see it was not a gun. But going from there to saying police just walk up to black people and shoot them in the head is a huge jump, a jump that I can't agree with. And if were true, then how do we explain the tens of thousands of blacks that overcrowd the jails if they are just executed on the spot for no reason?
    Pretty much what happened to Tamir Rice (not a head shot). The patrol car didn't even come to a complete stop before shots were fired at a child.

    I played with very real looking toy guns all the time in very public places -- hell, some even were real guns (of the BB and pellet variety) -- but somehow, I was never murdered for it. 
    Yes, and that's already been discussed by me and others. Profiling probably did play a role in why the cop didn't wait. That shooting was sad and wrong. But there is a huge difference between executing someone who you believe to be unarmed and has already given up, and rushing to false judgement.
    "Every incident of an unarmed black man getting killed was escalated through resisting arrest."

    This statement is completely false.
    Yes, that was not correct. I should have said every incident that immediately comes to mind. And even then there are some examples like Tamir Rice, who did not resist. 
    But still is not an example of a cop walking up and randomly shooting a person in the head because they are black. Had Tamir not been playing with a toy gun he would not have been shot. Also true if he was white the cop may have waited a few extra seconds. Either way, I don't see how that plays into this conversation. A cop sees a black man sitting down who had given up, like in the article you gave (except white), he is not going to walk up and shoot him in the head. You really believe in that story you shared, if the murderer was black, and found sitting down, unarmed, giving himself up, the police would be more likely to shoot him that arrest him?
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,504

    Getting shot in the street shouldn't be the penalty for resisting arrest. 

    Full stop. 



    Amadou Diallo was trying to go home & caught over 40 bullets. He was trying to enter his home and he was reaching for his wallet.

    That was over 20 years ago and nothing's changed. 

  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,689
    Update on republican plans to deal with mass shootings....

    1. Thoughts and prayers
    2. Voice support for nra and get more financial support from nra.
    3. Increase access to assault weapons
    4. Blame liberal socialist dems
    5. Repeat 1, 2, and 4
    6.. Denounce latest shooter as Muslim terrorist
    7. Repeat 1,2, and 4
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,577
    Update on republican plans to deal with mass shootings....

    1. Thoughts and prayers
    2. Voice support for nra and get more financial support from nra.
    3. Increase access to assault weapons
    4. Blame liberal socialist dems
    5. Repeat 1, 2, and 4
    6.. Denounce latest shooter as Muslim terrorist
    7. Repeat 1,2, and 4
    8. Oppose legislation that would deny gun sales to those on terrorist watch lists or no-fly lists. Because terrorists can be "responsible" gun owners too.
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  • dignindignin Posts: 8,939
    mace1229 said:
    dignin said:
    mace1229 said:
    dankind said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mace1229 said:
    honest question. why was he not shot dead? police kill unarmed people all the time. but this guy gets to walk out of there. i am so fucking sick of it.
    It seems like these often either end in suicide or without incident. Like the Aurora theater shooter, was found unarmed by his car awaiting police I believe. I don’t know if that is what happened here, but if it is, you can’t expect police to go shoot someone in the head no matter what they just did.

    tell that to the black community
    Can you share a story where a black person , while sitting quietly, was shot in t head? That was the question here, why was he not shot in the head. Every incident of an unarmed black man getting killed was escalated through resisting arrest. That doesn’t mean it was okay or that I’m defending the police in those cases. Just saying there’s a difference between that and someone like James Holmes who sat quietly and awaited arrest.
    I don’t know what happened here, the last press conference I heard the police wouldn’t even say if the shooter was injured or not. And my response was based on previous shooters who gave themselves up before police even arrived. If you can provide a single story where instead of trying to make an arrest that lead to a struggle, the police just shot a black man in the head without an incident then I’m wrong here.
    But if this shooter had given himself up, black or white, you can’t honestly expect police to just walk up and shoot him in the head at the scene as was suggested.
    He wasn't  sitting down and he wasn't shot in the head but you get the point. 
    Or will you?
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-life-prison-sentence-killing-college-campus-75260753
    In the topic of why wasn’t he shot in the head, no I don’t get the point. And he was seated and apparently unarmed. “ Urbanski then pocketed the knife and sat down on a bench until police arrived and arrested him at the bus stop.”
    So I’m not sure what this has to do with this conversation? Are you expecting police to just walk up and shoot him in the head? Do you think that would be the case if the races were reversed? If that was your point then I have to strongly disagree. 
    My posting of he article was that a white guy killed an innocent black guy who was waiting for a bus on campus.
    And of course the UMCP didn't kill the white guy.
    So you think the police should have just walked up behind him and shot him in the head, even though he had put the knife away and was seated and gave himself up without incident? Or do you think if the scenario was the same, if he was black, they would have done that? They would not have just walked up and shot a black man in the back of the head who appeared to be unarmed without any incident. 
    That does not mean there aren't issues with race and police. The other examples given, Tamir Rice and Philando, the cop thought he was armed or going for a weapon. Those shootings were still wrong, and I'm guessing if they were white the cop would have waited the extra 2 seconds it would have taken to see it was not a gun. But going from there to saying police just walk up to black people and shoot them in the head is a huge jump, a jump that I can't agree with. And if were true, then how do we explain the tens of thousands of blacks that overcrowd the jails if they are just executed on the spot for no reason?
    Pretty much what happened to Tamir Rice (not a head shot). The patrol car didn't even come to a complete stop before shots were fired at a child.

    I played with very real looking toy guns all the time in very public places -- hell, some even were real guns (of the BB and pellet variety) -- but somehow, I was never murdered for it. 
    Yes, and that's already been discussed by me and others. Profiling probably did play a role in why the cop didn't wait. That shooting was sad and wrong. But there is a huge difference between executing someone who you believe to be unarmed and has already given up, and rushing to false judgement.
    "Every incident of an unarmed black man getting killed was escalated through resisting arrest."

    This statement is completely false.
    Yes, that was not correct. I should have said every incident that immediately comes to mind. And even then there are some examples like Tamir Rice, who did not resist. 
    But still is not an example of a cop walking up and randomly shooting a person in the head because they are black. Had Tamir not been playing with a toy gun he would not have been shot. Also true if he was white the cop may have waited a few extra seconds. Either way, I don't see how that plays into this conversation. A cop sees a black man sitting down who had given up, like in the article you gave (except white), he is not going to walk up and shoot him in the head. You really believe in that story you shared, if the murderer was black, and found sitting down, unarmed, giving himself up, the police would be more likely to shoot him that arrest him?
    I shared the story of Philando Castile.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,577
    Nothing can be done. And I thought it was whenever a dem POTUS was elected? Quick, stock up everyone, get them while you can because soon you won't be able to get them at all. Hurry now.

    While mourning the loss of the 10 people killed in the mass shooting in the Boulder, Colo., Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.), an outspoken gun-rights advocate, said now was not the time to “advance a political agenda.”

    “While some elected officials have already started using this shooting to advance a political agenda, I refuse to do so,” Boebert said in a news release. “I will not blame society at large for the sick actions of one man and I will not allow lawbreakers to dictate the rights of law-abiding citizens.”

    Boebert, who has displayed guns in the background during interviews and virtual House committee hearings and owns a gun-themed restaurant in Colorado, cited Mr. Rogers’ advice to “look for the helpers” as she honored Eric Talley, the Boulder police officer who was among the victims in the shooting.

    “Mr. Talley made the ultimate sacrifice while protecting his community,” she said. “His bravery and heroism will not be forgotten.”


    Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) accused Democrats of using gun violence to advance their politics, calling their proposals “theater” to take people’s firearms away.

    “Every time there’s a shooting, we play this ridiculous theater where this committee gets together and proposes a bunch of laws that would do nothing to stop these murders,” Cruz said in an opening statement during the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on gun violence. “What happens in this committee after every mass shooting is Democrats propose taking away guns from law-abiding citizens because that’s their political objective.”

    Cruz said he and Sen. Charles E. Grassley (Iowa), the ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee, are reintroducing legislation to make it illegal for criminals and those with serious mental illness to purchase guns.

    Let’s target the bad guys, the felons, the fugitives, those with mental disease,” Cruz said. “Let’s put them in jail. Let’s stop them from getting guns. Let’s not scapegoat innocent, law-abiding citizens and let’s not target their Constitution.”

    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,978
    edited March 23

    Getting shot in the street shouldn't be the penalty for resisting arrest. 

    Full stop. 



    Amadou Diallo was trying to go home & caught over 40 bullets. He was trying to enter his home and he was reaching for his wallet.

    That was over 20 years ago and nothing's changed. 
    Start.
    I can't recall anyone in this history of this thread, or anywhere else for that matter, claiming that it should be. 
    The question was why didn't police walk up to this shooter and shoot him in the head. And some claimed it was because he was white, and that if he was black they would have. I disagreed with that. Especially since almost nothing is known about the investigation or the circumstances of the arrest at this point, or even if the shooter was injured, so those claims are baseless at this point. Never said shooting is the appropriate penalty for resisting arrest.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,504
    A hit dog will holler. 

  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 8,239
    I missed it.  Where does it say he’s a Muslim???  Are you basing that off his name???  Or are you just stereotyping???
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,978
    edited March 23
    I missed it.  Where does it say he’s a Muslim???  Are you basing that off his name???  Or are you just stereotyping???
    I may be wrong, but I think he wasn't making that leap, but pointing out that others likely will be based off his name. Which is probably accurate. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,504


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,504
    The fact of the matter is, the problem of mass shootings in America, like the immigration crisis, isn't one that republicans care to solve. 

  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,689
    The fact of the matter is, the problem of mass shootings in America, like the immigration crisis, isn't one that republicans care to solve. 
    No they don't 
    As long as they can play on people's fears and get votes and campaign dollars they have no interest in even attempting to solve those issues.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,704
    Update on republican plans to deal with mass shootings....

    1. Thoughts and prayers
    2. Voice support for nra and get more financial support from nra.
    3. Increase access to assault weapons
    4. Blame liberal socialist dems
    5. Repeat 1, 2, and 4
    6.. Denounce latest shooter as Muslim terrorist
    7. Repeat 1,2, and 4
    Sounds like a good strategy by the GOP it’s been working like a charm for decades
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,704
    https://twitter.com/amy_siskind/status/1374446621576945676?s=21
    Man lots of white men having really bad days, we need to cut them a brake no?
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,704
    So the theory that a good guy with a gun would of stopped this gun man is out the window! The 1st trained good guy with a gun at the scene was a cop and ended up dead! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,689
  • ymalkielymalkiel Posts: 57
    edited March 23
    Y’know, as a country, I think we need to have a national reckoning on gun violence. Either finally pass common-sense gun safety regulations, or stop reporting every mass shooting. Either change things, or accept that these deaths are part of the culture and society we have, like car accidents. We don’t report every fatal car accident the way we feverishly report on mass shootings. 
    Of course, nobody complains when we try to make cars and driving safer either. People lose their minds over the idea of driverless cars when they’ve actually proven much safer than actual human drivers. That’s because even one fatality makes people say, “See. Driverless cars aren’t safe.” 
    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    I've never even understood how the Second Amendment can be used as an argument against any type of gun laws. It's right there in the language. It begins, "A WELL REGULATED militia...." It doesn't say, "You want a gun, you get a gun."

    End rant.
    Post edited by ymalkiel on
    ✌🏼❤️
  • KatKat There's a lot to be said for nowhere.Posts: 4,479
    I would like to see the responsible gun owners come up with suggestions and solutions to detect and prevent the people with violent problems among their number so the rest of us don't need to do it. They must prefer to play victim, while making everyone else victims, instead of being pro-active about this HUGE problem we have in our country. It's time to step up. I'm done giving up my rights to being safe so violent individuals can own a bunch of guns, or any weapons to keep killing whenever they feel like it.
    Falling down,...not staying down
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,689

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 33,979
    ymalkiel said:
    Y’know, as a country, I think we need to have a national reckoning on gun violence. Either finally pass common-sense gun safety regulations, or stop reporting every mass shooting. Either change things, or accept that these deaths are part of the culture and society we have, like car accidents. We don’t report every fatal car accident the way we feverishly report on mass shootings. 
    Of course, nobody complains when we try to make cars and driving safer either. People lose their minds over the idea of driverless cars when they’ve actually proven much safer than actual human drivers. That’s because even one fatality makes people say, “See. Driverless cars aren’t safe.” 
    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    I've never even understood how the Second Amendment can be used as an argument against any type of gun laws. It's right there in the language. It begins, "A WELL REGULATED militia...." It doesn't say, "You want a gun, you get a gun."

    End rant.

    Well said, Y.  The problem is, America is a bloodthirsty nation.  We know this by the things that so many Americans drool over- violent movies, violent video games, the popularity of true-crime books (the more graphic, the more likely they are to sell), the hope and anticipation of seeing a fatal crash at automobile races, football, love of war, road rage, random violence, kids who bully other kids, and on and on.  I'm not so sure showing pictures of the dead would lead to the reasonable changes many of us would like to see.  I wish I had an answer.  I sometimes think there may not be one- that our violence may be an aspect of socio-biology that has become written into our DNA.  We are so clever and have these large brains and yet we are absurd.  It's sad and tragic.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,978
    He stood on one of the victims as he continued to shoot. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,577
    Second graders. Nothing can be done. Theater of the absurd.
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,704
    Hate breeds hate, the shooter was Syrian decent now he has killed 10 people including a policeman who has young children these kids will grow up hating Muslims! These cycles are insane.
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 756
    So the theory that a good guy with a gun would of stopped this gun man is out the window! The 1st trained good guy with a gun at the scene was a cop and ended up dead! 
    That is the last thing we need. Just owning a gun, or having some training doesn't equip someone to respond to a shooting event. I hear people suggest that scenario and it is stupid and dangerous.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,520
    Kat said:
    I would like to see the responsible gun owners come up with suggestions and solutions to detect and prevent the people with violent problems among their number so the rest of us don't need to do it. They must prefer to play victim, while making everyone else victims, instead of being pro-active about this HUGE problem we have in our country. It's time to step up. I'm done giving up my rights to being safe so violent individuals can own a bunch of guns, or any weapons to keep killing whenever they feel like it.
    I have offered certain suggestions that I would feel comfortable with then it's not enough.  You can't have common sense gun laws for people that dislike guns, it's impossible.

    You make it sound like this is the wild west.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,520
    Hate breeds hate, the shooter was Syrian decent now he has killed 10 people including a policeman who has young children these kids will grow up hating Muslims! These cycles are insane.
    I would hope that people would teach them differently.

    In the Middle East the clans of people ending up hating anyone who has wronged their families/clan.  Americans killed their cousin in battle, guess who the clan hates?

    So yes it's a vicious cycle and I would hope that people would act kinder to each other and this cycle wouldn't happen.
  • jerparker20jerparker20 St. Paul, MNPosts: 2,101
    edited March 24
    ymalkiel said:

    I think that the media should start showing the carnage that comes with gun violence. Show pictures of the dead. The blood, the guts, the gore. All of it. If they’d shown what happened at Newtown, Americans would’ve done everything in their power to have their representatives enact gun safety regulations.

    This. 

    I grew up with guns. I’ve shot and killed numerous animals. I know what the aftermath of a gunshot looks like. The problem is most people don’t. This includes the multitudes of the hardcore 2A folks who only know what the damage to a paper silhouette at a gun range looks like. Force people to see the reality of their “freedom” and “rights.”

    I’m all for the ownership of firearms for hunting, sporting, and home defense. Want a pump shotgun, a bolt/lever action rifle, a revolver, fine. Perfect firearms for hunting, home defense. They’ll get the job done. I own a shotgun and hunting rifle. But, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to own an AR15, high capacity magazines, and any of these other items 2A backers get excited about. There are no lines that will change my mind. If you need more than three shots to kill an animal, maybe you shouldn’t be hunting. 

    As for what can be done, here’s a start:
    - Background checks for all firearm purchases
    - enact a national “red flag” law
    - eliminate all conceal and carry/open carry laws
    - mandatory firearm training prior to purchase
    - ban gun shows
    -mandatory licensing and registration of all firearms
    - mandatory insurance coverage for all firearm owners
    - private gun sales will require transfer paperwork/registration
    - ban the sale, manufacturing and importing of all semi-automatic firearms, magazines with a capacity over 3 rounds, and all full-metal jacket rounds
    - offer a two year buyback period to all owners of the above mentioned items to surrender said items and be compensated at market value. Possession of said items after that period becomes a felony punishable by 5-10 years.
    - increase the penalties for illegal ownership, and illegal sale and transfer of firearms to 10-20 years
    - lifetime ban for anyone found guilty on firearm charges. Future violations for those would be a mandatory 10 years.
    Post edited by jerparker20 on
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