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America's Gun Violence

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    edited March 31
    Sure, none of them brought guns to the insurrection? I guess you don’t remember the vehicle seized and owner arrested with multiple guns and ammo? We all know “responsible” gun owners abide by the law, right? From the WaPo article on the guy who wore a T-shirt with a picture of POOTWH and the words “I was there” on it and boasting on social media of bringing zip ties, a gun and wanting a piece of AOC. And that cop being chased up the stairs showed great restraint but you know, White privilege.

    New details of his Jan. 20 arrest were revealed this week in court documents as prosecutors urged a judge not to release him before his trial, noting that he allegedly admitted to bringing a gun into the Capitol during the deadly insurrection. 

    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    Sure, none of them brought guns to the insurrection? I guess you don’t remember the vehicle seized and owner arrested with multiple guns and ammo? We all know “responsible” gun owners abide by the law, right? From the WaPo article on the guy who wore a T-shirt with a picture of POOTWH and the words “I was there” on it and boasting on social media of bringing zip ties, a gun and wanting a piece of AOC. And that cop being chased up the stairs showed great restraint but you know, White privilege.

    New details of his Jan. 20 arrest were revealed this week in court documents as prosecutors urged a judge not to release him before his trial, noting that he allegedly admitted to bringing a gun into the Capitol during the deadly insurrection. 

    I should have clarified, that MOST of those idiots left their guns at home... I know some people had weapons, but the majority didn't. 

    So, with that being said, why do people think most of these idiots left their guns at home?

    We know it wasn't out of respect or concern for the Capitol Police.

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    Should have been clearer as we know some people brought them, let's be glad that no one "used" them.  That would have made it all that much worse.
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,684
    I'd guess a lot of them left their guns at home because despite the image of being working-class heroes driving up in their pickups most of them came by plane.

    I am sure there was a significant minority of insurrectionists who were armed but since they're all being apprehended after the fact, no such charges are likely.
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
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    2011 Alpine, Alpine
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    Yawn, what’s another four, including one child? Thoughts and prayers. Nothing can be done. More guns is the answer. “Responsible” gun owners have the power, if they exist.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/31/orange-shooting-los-angeles-california/
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • tbergstbergs Posts: 7,981
    Just saw the story as well. 3 in 3 weeks. Seems America is back on track.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    tbergs said:
    Just saw the story as well. 3 in 3 weeks. Seems America is back on track.
    Back? Never left the tracks. Straight shot, continuum of the arc of being number one in “responsibility.” Gonna be gold medal winners for a long time coming. “Responsible.”
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    Should have been clearer as we know some people brought them, let's be glad that no one "used" them.  That would have made it all that much worse.
    Strap on, strap off?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    C19 & shootings, what a country ha best in the world, is it worth it I ask the 2nd A supporters when will enough be enough how many massacres are you willing to endure? 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,678
    C19 & shootings, what a country ha best in the world, is it worth it I ask the 2nd A supporters when will enough be enough how many massacres are you willing to endure? 
    All of them. 
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    America is the shit hole country. 

  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    Hey how about you don’t treat on me with your fucking weapons! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    Hey how about you don’t treat on me with your fucking weapons! 
    It's the price America pays so that selfish, childish & insecure man babies don't have to be told they can't have something they shouldn't have. 

  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    Hey how about you don’t treat on me with your fucking weapons! 
    It's the price America pays so that selfish, childish & insecure man babies don't have to be told they can't have something they shouldn't have. 
    I wish they could just be in their own state just them & their precious weapons with a giant wall keeping them all cozy by themselves lol a man can dream no? 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    Hey how about you don’t treat on me with your fucking weapons! 
    It's the price America pays so that selfish, childish & insecure man babies don't have to be told they can't have something they shouldn't have. 
    Wah.  I'm one I guess...
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    Hey how about you don’t treat on me with your fucking weapons! 
    It's the price America pays so that selfish, childish & insecure man babies don't have to be told they can't have something they shouldn't have. 
    Wah.  I'm one I guess...
    Guess you are! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    Another shooting this one in North Carolina go ahead find the link yourselves I’m doing posting them! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    edited April 3
    123 people shot. Not all fatal but that’s not the point. Just below average in ‘Murica. So much “responsibility.” Clearly, more guns are the answer. 

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/two-weeks-20-mass-shootings-trnd/index.html


    https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,736
    123 people shot. Not all fatal but that’s not the point. Just below average in ‘Murica. So much “responsibility.” Clearly, more guns are the answer. 

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/two-weeks-20-mass-shootings-trnd/index.html


    https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Stop blaming the innocent guns

    Guns don't kill people 





    People in possession of guns kill people
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,986
    123 people shot. Not all fatal but that’s not the point. Just below average in ‘Murica. So much “responsibility.” Clearly, more guns are the answer. 

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/two-weeks-20-mass-shootings-trnd/index.html


    https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Stop blaming the innocent guns

    Guns don't kill people 





    People in possession of guns kill people

    BAN PEOPLE!!!!!
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    123 people shot. Not all fatal but that’s not the point. Just below average in ‘Murica. So much “responsibility.” Clearly, more guns are the answer. 

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/two-weeks-20-mass-shootings-trnd/index.html


    https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Stop blaming the innocent guns

    Guns don't kill people 





    People in possession of guns kill people
    Exactly. People in possession of guns is the problem. 

  • static111static111 Posts: 2,530
    123 people shot. Not all fatal but that’s not the point. Just below average in ‘Murica. So much “responsibility.” Clearly, more guns are the answer. 

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/two-weeks-20-mass-shootings-trnd/index.html


    https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
    Stop blaming the innocent guns

    Guns don't kill people 





    People in possession of guns kill people
    Exactly. People in possession of guns is the problem. 
    If only there was a way to keep guns out of people’s possession...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,986
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    mickeyrat said:
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    It's not the wild west.  People do need to understand the law and it's intentions though.  You need to avoid confrontations and just because they don't go your way does not mean you get to shoot them...
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,986
    edited April 5
    mickeyrat said:
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    It's not the wild west.  People do need to understand the law and it's intentions though.  You need to avoid confrontations and just because they don't go your way does not mean you get to shoot them...

    dude , some dumb fuck customer shot at another who was stealing a 12 pack of beer at a speedway gas station.

    far too many are already irresponsible in regards to weapons. this opens the door to more irresponsibility. to use a phrase those against any kind of reform use, its a slippery slope.....
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,521
    mickeyrat said:
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    It's not the wild west.  People do need to understand the law and it's intentions though.  You need to avoid confrontations and just because they don't go your way does not mean you get to shoot them...

    Armed people feel less need to avoid confrontation. 

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,666
    mickeyrat said:
    mickeyrat said:
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    It's not the wild west.  People do need to understand the law and it's intentions though.  You need to avoid confrontations and just because they don't go your way does not mean you get to shoot them...

    dude , some dumb fuck customer shot at another who was stealing a 12 pack of beer at a speedway gas station.

    far too many are already irresponsible in regards to weapons. this opens the door to more irresponsibility. to use a phrase those against any kind of reform use, its a slippery slope.....
    That person needs to be tried and convicted.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 24,724
    mickeyrat said:
    buckle up.......

    Ohio's 'stand your ground' law takes effect Tuesday. Here's what you need to know

    Anna Staver
    The Columbus Dispatch
    Supporters and opponents of Ohios new stand your ground law are preparing for the law to take effect Tuesday In this June 2020 file photo Eddie Moncrief left and Katie Harriman right stand in front of the Ohio Statehouse

    Ohio's rules for using deadly force change on Tuesday.

    That's when a new law, passed by Republicans in December, takes away the legal requirement that people try to retreat from a situation before using deadly force. 

    Supporters say Ohio's "stand your ground" law will give much needed protections to people caught in life-threatening situations. But opponents argue that "make my day" laws actually make people of color less safe and increase the number of gun deaths in America.

    What is the law in Ohio?

    Ohio gave people expansive self-defense rights while inside their homes and cars back in 2008, but the rules were different for city streets, county fairs and the grocery store parking lots. They required a person to attempt to retreat in public before firing a weapon. That requirement goes away Tuesday. 

    What doesn't change though is someone has to meet the standard for using lethal force.

    "It doesn’t give you a right to shoot and ask questions later," said Eric Delbert, a police officer and co-owner of L.E.P.D. Firearms and Range in Columbus.

    Here's what that standard means: A person must have the legal right to be wherever they are. They can't be the one who started the altercation. They have to fear for their life or serious bodily injury, and they had to be able to articulate why. 

    "If someone comes up and hits you, it may or may not be a justification...," Delbert said. "That’s for a jury to decide. It doesn’t change the standard for utilizing lethal force."

    Stand your ground or license to kill?

    Opponents like Rep. Adam Miller, D-Columbus, say that third condition, fearing for one's life, is so subjective and hard to prove false in court that it will "encourage people to stay in the confrontation" when they might otherwise have walked away. 

    "It will encourage people to avoid taking an open, obvious way out of a situation," he said. 

    Miller is an attorney for the U.S. Army reserves and recently returned from a tour as a Rule of Law Director for NATO/US forces in Afghanistan. He's also the co-sponsor of House Bill 38 that would put the duty to retreat back in state law.

    He thinks stand your ground laws push civilians away from the rules for the use of force and into the military rules of engagement without proper training.

    "We don’t need Joe and Susie Buckeye playing the role of police," Miller said. "These stand your ground folks came at this from the presumption that Ohio is some wild west frontier town."

    Delbert said this problem comes down to proper training. 

    "We teach this at exhaustion during our classes. It has to be the last thing when you're out of options to use lethal force," he said. "You might not get charged criminally, but you will get sued civilly. Your life is going to change the moment you pull the trigger."

    And Judi Phelps, who owns the On Guard Defense training center in Hocking Hills, said something similar when she testified in support of stand your ground last year.

    She teaches her students to avoid, escape, defend. They understand that part. What confuses the women in her classes is the subjectiveness of "no reasonable means to retreat or escape."

    "They wonder aloud whether they should even carry because they are left feeling that even if they defended themselves and survived that threat, the bigger threat could end up being victimized, once again, by the courts," Phelps said. "They don’t want to go to prison. They don’t want to hurt or kill someone. They just want to be left alone and be safe."

    Bracing for impact

    Communities of color across Ohio are doing another kind of training ahead of Tuesday's change. 

    "Shoot first laws are already in place in other states and have proven to disproportionately harm Black people and increase homicide rates," House Minority Leader Emilia Sykes, D-Akron, said. "Ohio's new shoot first law will threaten more Black lives and ultimately make us all less safe."

    That's why Rep. Dontavius Jarrells, D-Columbus, is working with community leaders in his district to explain how the new law works. 

    "In my district, we’ve seen a large number of shootings and violence. I think about the increased number of incidents that are likely to happen now," he said. "I want to make sure my constituents understand the magnitude of this legislation on their lives."

    "Perception is power," Jarrells added. And the way people perceive stand your ground laws — even if it's incorrect — can have fatal consequences.

    Michael Drejka, of Florida, was sentenced to 20 years in prison even though he claimed he stood his ground when he shot Markeis McGlockton over a parking space in 2018. 

    Justice may have been served in that case, Jarrells said. But McGlockton's four children are still going to grow up without a father. 

    "People don’t understand the specifics of stand your ground. They just hear the words and take a meaning from them," Jarrells said. "We are creating a space where the perception of this law could lead to violence."

    [email protected]

    @annastaver


    It's not the wild west.  People do need to understand the law and it's intentions though.  You need to avoid confrontations and just because they don't go your way does not mean you get to shoot them...

    Armed people feel less need to avoid confrontation. 
    So they feel more courage as opposed to not having a gun during a confrontation.
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,700
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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