I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out. This is where someone's faith comes in.)
The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.
Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.
It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.
What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out. This is where someone's faith comes in.)
The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.
Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.
It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.
What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception
I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out. This is where someone's faith comes in.)
The most challenging questions can never be answered satisfactorily by zealots. The blanket answer is always, "you must have faith"... followed by a veiled threat laced with a touch of guilt, "this is as God wants it." In other words... don't question. I never found this type of response adequate as I grew older.
Like most, I had my experience with religion. As a human being is inclined to do- especially when presented with such a story- I began to question what was being told to me as a young teen. The more I questioned, the more I felt myself moving away from my relationship with God. This was not easy and I can't even say it was a conscious transformation- it was a daily struggle associated with much guilt. I can't recall exactly when, but there came a time when my head poked from the clouds and that experience was behind me. On occasion, I still consider the idea... but not for very long- logistically alone... I feel the story is impossible.
It's tough to see religion as I do now when you are 'all in'. When children are presented with such a wonderful story and message of hope, it's a super easy sell. And once that story has its roots, it's extremely difficult to shed. Adults in vulnerable states often need such hope and religion offers them a way of life that keeps their life in a positive state.
What am I trying to say? I guess I'm saying as flippant as I might be when it comes to religion, I am so only towards the institution. As far as any individuals choosing to believe or not believe... whatever gets you through your day provided you aren't stomping on anyone else (from pushing religion to blowing people up in the name of it).
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
I just thought of something I hadn't considered for quite some time. While writing my new book about my experiences with music and musicians, I was jotting down notes for a section about seeing the Violent Femmes at a punk club in San Jose in the 80's. That was a wild night. The band came on very late and the crowd was borderline viscous. Once the band started up, everyone was having a great time until half way through the show singer/guitarist Gordon Gano announced he wanted to slow things down for just a few minutes and he went into a folk-style hymn that was simply wonderful. I loved their punk stuff but this was equally great- one of my favorite numbers that night. Gano was rewarded for his efforts by a lot of verbal abuse and booing. What a bunch of losers these punks were, I thought. As it turns out, Gano is a devout Christian and bassist Brian Ritchie and drummer Victor DeLorenzo are both atheists and yet these guys were able to accept their differing opinions and create some great music. Not a bad example there. Something to ponder.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Maybe because those who are devout on either end (or just on the fence) don't bring it into everything? Not sure what I'd call it - humility, modesty? Keeping the personal personal?
I've read that Alice Cooper is religious, and Ozzy prays before performing.
I guess I just like how in daily life (and not necessarily here - I get we have topics specific to the subject and I value those threads and their participants), the person / their character and actions are how we form our views of them...of ourselves as well.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
Well said, H. Yeah, modesty (such a much maligned and often turned upside down concept) can make for a lot of tolerance (another over-used word). Where's my thesaurus, LOL. :-)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I just thought of something I hadn't considered for quite some time. While writing my new book about my experiences with music and musicians, I was jotting down notes for a section about seeing the Violent Femmes at a punk club in San Jose in the 80's. That was a wild night. The band came on very late and the crowd was borderline viscous. Once the band started up, everyone was having a great time until half way through the show singer/guitarist Gordon Gano announced he wanted to slow things down for just a few minutes and he went into a folk-style hymn that was simply wonderful. I loved their punk stuff but this was equally great- one of my favorite numbers that night. Gano was rewarded for his efforts by a lot of verbal abuse and booing. What a bunch of losers these punks were, I thought. As it turns out, Gano is a devout Christian and bassist Brian Ritchie and drummer Victor DeLorenzo are both atheists and yet these guys were able to accept their differing opinions and create some great music. Not a bad example there. Something to ponder.
A very good example. I have close friends that have differing opinions on this topic, yet we remain friends. We accept each others differences. We do not pressure each other. I agree these are personal matters, and other then here, I keep it that way. But maybe that's because there is a familiarity here in the forum. On a side note, I believe there is a difference in opinions on this topic within the band we all love, and they also are able to co-exist quite well. Another good example.
"Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '16
who says god is only purely fantastic, pleasant, cheerful & only is for goodness? norse dick! god would be a nasty nasty energy just as equally surrounded by angels w/ harps playing in a waterfall pool sitting on rocks eating grapes or a tornado or whatever
what humans (if we can call them humans) do alot of the time is evil. freewill isn't it?
we've all heard the saying - "can't have good without bad" or however it is stated god & satan are one (hell aint on fire underground, heaven aint on clouds) get used to it
The First Testament depicts God as a complete prick. Allah doesn't come off so cheery in the Koran either. The idea that he's only kind and loving is pretty new age, actually.
Curious as to your views on Judaism? I've seen you rip apart Islam and Christianity, is Judaism off the table when it comes to ripping on religion. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything written from you on Judaism. Just curious, are u afraid of being labeled an anti-Semite or something? Maybe I'm wrong and you have ripped it apart?
Sorry, not my place to jump in here, but the old testament IS Judaism.
Exactly.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
who says god is only purely fantastic, pleasant, cheerful & only is for goodness? norse dick! god would be a nasty nasty energy just as equally surrounded by angels w/ harps playing in a waterfall pool sitting on rocks eating grapes or a tornado or whatever
what humans (if we can call them humans) do alot of the time is evil. freewill isn't it?
we've all heard the saying - "can't have good without bad" or however it is stated god & satan are one (hell aint on fire underground, heaven aint on clouds) get used to it
The First Testament depicts God as a complete prick. Allah doesn't come off so cheery in the Koran either. The idea that he's only kind and loving is pretty new age, actually.
Curious as to your views on Judaism? I've seen you rip apart Islam and Christianity, is Judaism off the table when it comes to ripping on religion. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything written from you on Judaism. Just curious, are u afraid of being labeled an anti-Semite or something? Maybe I'm wrong and you have ripped it apart?
Sorry, not my place to jump in here, but the old testament IS Judaism.
Exactly.
Ah, I honestly could be wrong but you did say "new" which I take as christ? I could be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised. Is there a diff between new and old?
who says god is only purely fantastic, pleasant, cheerful & only is for goodness? norse dick! god would be a nasty nasty energy just as equally surrounded by angels w/ harps playing in a waterfall pool sitting on rocks eating grapes or a tornado or whatever
what humans (if we can call them humans) do alot of the time is evil. freewill isn't it?
we've all heard the saying - "can't have good without bad" or however it is stated god & satan are one (hell aint on fire underground, heaven aint on clouds) get used to it
The First Testament depicts God as a complete prick. Allah doesn't come off so cheery in the Koran either. The idea that he's only kind and loving is pretty new age, actually.
Curious as to your views on Judaism? I've seen you rip apart Islam and Christianity, is Judaism off the table when it comes to ripping on religion. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything written from you on Judaism. Just curious, are u afraid of being labeled an anti-Semite or something? Maybe I'm wrong and you have ripped it apart?
Sorry, not my place to jump in here, but the old testament IS Judaism.
Exactly.
Ah, I honestly could be wrong but you did say "new" which I take as christ? I could be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised. Is there a diff between new and old?
Edit- don't want to mis-quote you now )
shit might get put in the NY Times..... you gotta watch when you quote PJ_Soul
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
who says god is only purely fantastic, pleasant, cheerful & only is for goodness? norse dick! god would be a nasty nasty energy just as equally surrounded by angels w/ harps playing in a waterfall pool sitting on rocks eating grapes or a tornado or whatever
what humans (if we can call them humans) do alot of the time is evil. freewill isn't it?
we've all heard the saying - "can't have good without bad" or however it is stated god & satan are one (hell aint on fire underground, heaven aint on clouds) get used to it
The First Testament depicts God as a complete prick. Allah doesn't come off so cheery in the Koran either. The idea that he's only kind and loving is pretty new age, actually.
Curious as to your views on Judaism? I've seen you rip apart Islam and Christianity, is Judaism off the table when it comes to ripping on religion. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything written from you on Judaism. Just curious, are u afraid of being labeled an anti-Semite or something? Maybe I'm wrong and you have ripped it apart?
Sorry, not my place to jump in here, but the old testament IS Judaism.
Exactly.
Ah, I honestly could be wrong but you did say "new" which I take as christ? I could be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised. Is there a diff between new and old?
Edit- don't want to mis-quote you now )
Lol!
Pretty sure I said Old Testament, since that's the one in which God is a bigger asshole. I wouldn't have said New Testament in that context, because God doesn't come off nearly as bad in that one. Edit: actually it says right there - I said "first testament"... by which I meant Old. In retrospect it was a weird term to use, but I think still clear in what I meant.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
who says god is only purely fantastic, pleasant, cheerful & only is for goodness? norse dick! god would be a nasty nasty energy just as equally surrounded by angels w/ harps playing in a waterfall pool sitting on rocks eating grapes or a tornado or whatever
what humans (if we can call them humans) do alot of the time is evil. freewill isn't it?
we've all heard the saying - "can't have good without bad" or however it is stated god & satan are one (hell aint on fire underground, heaven aint on clouds) get used to it
The First Testament depicts God as a complete prick. Allah doesn't come off so cheery in the Koran either. The idea that he's only kind and loving is pretty new age, actually.
Curious as to your views on Judaism? I've seen you rip apart Islam and Christianity, is Judaism off the table when it comes to ripping on religion. I could be wrong but I haven't seen anything written from you on Judaism. Just curious, are u afraid of being labeled an anti-Semite or something? Maybe I'm wrong and you have ripped it apart?
Sorry, not my place to jump in here, but the old testament IS Judaism.
Exactly.
Ah, I honestly could be wrong but you did say "new" which I take as christ? I could be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised. Is there a diff between new and old?
Edit- don't want to mis-quote you now )
Lol!
Pretty sure I said Old Testament, since that's the one in which God is a bigger asshole. I wouldn't have said New Testament in that context, because God doesn't come off nearly as bad in that one. Edit: actually it says right there - I said "first testament"... by which I meant Old. In retrospect it was a weird term to use, but I think still clear in what I meant.
It is true that God was a bigger asshole in the old testament. In the last (and lost) book of the O.T., Eratacus, God discovered the 12 step system, gave Him/Herself up to a Higher Power and changed His/Her ways which led to the New Testament.
Oftenreading, I'm anxiously awaiting the long-overdue printing to that last part of the Bible Trilogy. Should make for same Awesome Reading!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I understand there has been quite a lot of editing, as you might well imagine given some of the howlers that slipped through in the first two volumes. Also multiple file format changes since the original draft, and you can picture how difficult it is to find a drive that takes papyrus these days. No-one could decide if we needed another list of begats to bring things up to date, and who knows which miracles are impressive enough to make it into print ("we've already done loaves and fishes; nachos and salsa just isn't good enough!"). Should be along any day now.
Post edited by oftenreading on
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
I understand there has been quite a lot of editing, as you might well imagine given some of the howlers that slipped through in the first two volumes. Also multiple file format changes since the original draft, and you can picture how difficult it is to find a drive that takes papyrus these days. No-one could decide if we needed another list of begats to bring things up to date, and who knows which miracles are impressive enough to make it into print ("we've already done loaves and fishes; nachos and salsa just isn't good enough!"). Should be along any day now.
) Ahh! Now I know why my disc drive is so jammed up!
Nachos and salsa? That was en la Biblia en español, si?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I understand there has been quite a lot of editing, as you might well imagine given some of the howlers that slipped through in the first two volumes. Also multiple file format changes since the original draft, and you can picture how difficult it is to find a drive that takes papyrus these days. No-one could decide if we needed another list of begats to bring things up to date, and who knows which miracles are impressive enough to make it into print ("we've already done loaves and fishes; nachos and salsa just isn't good enough!"). Should be along any day now.
) Ahh! Now I know why my disc drive is so jammed up!
Nachos and salsa? That was en la Biblia en español, si?
Espanol? Naturalmente. We aim to bring The Word, or at least Some Words, to everybody.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Reason is moot without faith. An enlightened mind is impossible without faith in the inherent good of civilized people.
reason: -a statement or fact that explains why something is the way it is, why someone does, thinks, or says something, or why someone behaves a certain way
faith: -strong belief or trust in someone or something -belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs -a system of religious beliefs
I'm not making the connection here. I don't understand why a statement of fact would be dependent on a belief since beliefs are not fact. I don't see the logic here. Can you explain why you believe reason is nullified or non-existent in the absence of faith?
enlightenment: -the state of having knowledge or understanding : the act of giving someone knowledge or understanding
By definition, enlightenment seems much closer to reason than to faith, therefor should not be dependent on having faith.
If by "civilized" you mean "marked by well-organized laws and rules about how people behave with each other" (Merriam Webster) then yes, I suppose we could be coerced into believing we must have faith to be enlightened but I have the faith that humans can be uncivilized and still be enlightened.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
My very much beloved dogs were lost in the woods for 10.5 hours today. Really makes me think about the way traumatic events shape belief. When you lose loved ones it is hard to believe, but when you come close to losing and get to keep, it makes it easy to believe.
My very much beloved dogs were lost in the woods for 10.5 hours today. Really makes me think about the way traumatic events shape belief. When you lose loved ones it is hard to believe, but when you come close to losing and get to keep, it makes it easy to believe.
I'm assuming they're home and safe now bro? That must of been some panic mode to be in. Hope all is well.
My very much beloved dogs were lost in the woods for 10.5 hours today. Really makes me think about the way traumatic events shape belief. When you lose loved ones it is hard to believe, but when you come close to losing and get to keep, it makes it easy to believe.
Comments
I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
Absolutely.
To save confusion on anyone's part: PJfanwillnever... asked the question- to which I responded, "absolutely."
I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception
I believe that he doesn't have a "plan" for everything. He has an overall understanding, because he exists outside of time, therefore he already knows how it all ends but I don't think he lays it out.
This is where someone's faith comes in.)
Is it fair to say that a belief should be evidenced not faith based?
faith is like blind trust and belief in love and where you find it in yourself, you have to believe God is love and "does not accept bribes" "and is a fair and a just God" and he is not partial "but pleases those who are abiding by "his laws" and "forgiving those who sincerely repent" and that all children are "treated equal and judged differently according to their actions" bc he sees more in an individual than what we can see bc he "reads the heart and mind" and can see "black or white", as for we really can't do that and we are imperfect, but the love we find in ourselves is contributed to faith and belief in that God is love and exist due to intelligence and perception
I've read that Alice Cooper is religious, and Ozzy prays before performing.
I guess I just like how in daily life (and not necessarily here - I get we have topics specific to the subject and I value those threads and their participants), the person / their character and actions are how we form our views of them...of ourselves as well.
I thought I'd really heavy out on you guys.
∞
was heavy but
.
whoa! Too much!
Or is it the singularity?
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '16
Edit- don't want to mis-quote you now
you gotta watch when you quote PJ_Soul
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
Pretty sure I said Old Testament, since that's the one in which God is a bigger asshole.
Oftenreading, I'm anxiously awaiting the long-overdue printing to that last part of the Bible Trilogy. Should make for same Awesome Reading!
Nachos and salsa? That was en la Biblia en español, si?
An enlightened mind is impossible without faith in the inherent good of civilized people.
-a statement or fact that explains why something is the way it is, why someone does, thinks, or says something, or why someone behaves a certain way
faith:
-strong belief or trust in someone or something
-belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs
-a system of religious beliefs
I'm not making the connection here. I don't understand why a statement of fact would be dependent on a belief since beliefs are not fact. I don't see the logic here. Can you explain why you believe reason is nullified or non-existent in the absence of faith?
enlightenment:
-the state of having knowledge or understanding : the act of giving someone knowledge or understanding
By definition, enlightenment seems much closer to reason than to faith, therefor should not be dependent on having faith.
If by "civilized" you mean "marked by well-organized laws and rules about how people behave with each other" (Merriam Webster) then yes, I suppose we could be coerced into believing we must have faith to be enlightened but I have the faith that humans can be uncivilized and still be enlightened.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
:-/
Really makes me think about the way traumatic events shape belief. When you lose loved ones it is hard to believe, but when you come close to losing and get to keep, it makes it easy to believe.