Cops arrest man for filming, kill his dog too

cincybearcat

unsung wrote:

Fwiw, my stepfather was a K9 officer for over twenty years so I've been around it my entire life. My opinions are based off first hand information.

'Some of my best friends are black..." :fp:

When you use a term like pigs you have crossed the same line as the N word or any of the other terrible terms out there.

vant0037

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Van... I get a chuckle when you post. I picture you behind your mahogany desk, loading your attaché with critical documents necessary for trial, and squeezing in one more post before ducking out heading to court. Maybe this board serves as a warm-up for you dealing with those ridiculous defence lawyers? Kind of like Ed stretching out the vocal cords before his solo shows!

I have no idea if the desk is mahogany (it is brown though). Thankfully, the few weeks around any holiday (front and back) are always ghost towns around the office and courthouse. I had a trial calendar yesterday with 3 cases that were finished by noon.

That leaves me ample time to waste on here the day before a holiday.

This board is a great place to sound off and make points and learn new stuff. I tend to learn more about my own arguments and beliefs in the process of responding to people than I do just reading. So it's a great place to be, but I get really, really tired of reading arguments where some unprovable anecdote is the only support offered, or where claims are allowed to persist by virtue of insinuation or generalization.

In other words, if we're all going to argue, let's at least do it with reason and respect, not anecdote and insult.

hedonist

vant0037 wrote:

This board is a great place to sound off and make points and learn new stuff. I tend to learn more about my own arguments and beliefs in the process of responding to people than I do just reading. So it's a great place to be, but I get really, really tired of reading arguments where some unprovable anecdote is the only support offered, or where claims are allowed to persist by virtue of insinuation or generalization.

In other words, if we're all going to argue, let's at least do it with reason and respect, not anecdote and insult.

Bravo to this (as well as to many of your other well-thought-out and well-spoken posts - they're appreciated).

That said, I too had a similar at-the-desk-quick-post visual

unsung

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

unsung wrote:

This cop has a history of abuse, so yeah he is a pig. I never said all cops were, just this group. Thugs with costumes and guns.

From an earlier post:

And yeah they are pigs. I'll show them respect when they respect others.

So, are you sure that not even one of those officers is a decent guy?

Was the owner of the dog showing respect when he was yelling at the cops, while ignoring simple commands to leave the proximity and film like all the others where it was safer and okay to do so from?

Yeah, I am talking about the group immediately involved. Based on their actions as a whole I'd say that they were less desirable to be serving the public. THEY WORK FOR US.

And you don't know what was said, what they told him to do, just like I don't know. The video shows that he wasn't resisting, and that is all we can tell other than the end. I never said his actions were without guilt, but the conduct of the police that were there looks excessive to me. Since one of those officers (the shooter) was involved in another case that the city had to settle for $1,000,000 I'd say he is prone to abuse and is a bad example of an officer that is supposed to serve and protect.

unsung

cincybearcat wrote:

unsung wrote:

Fwiw, my stepfather was a K9 officer for over twenty years so I've been around it my entire life. My opinions are based off first hand information.

'Some of my best friends are black..." :fp:

When you use a term like pigs you have crossed the same line as the N word or any of the other terrible terms out there.

I refuse to pretend these clowns are heroes, they are cowards. And there is no racism involved, so no it is nowhere near the same thing.

cincybearcat

unsung wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

unsung wrote:

Fwiw, my stepfather was a K9 officer for over twenty years so I've been around it my entire life. My opinions are based off first hand information.

'Some of my best friends are black..." :fp:

When you use a term like pigs you have crossed the same line as the N word or any of the other terrible terms out there.

I refuse to pretend these clowns are heroes, they are cowards. And there is no racism involved, so no it is nowhere near the same thing.

Who said these cops were heros?

And generalizing an entire group is exactly what you are doing. You are projecting your knowledge of a police dog's behavior onto an unknown Rotweiler. Not going to act the same.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

unsung wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

unsung wrote:

This cop has a history of abuse, so yeah he is a pig. I never said all cops were, just this group. Thugs with costumes and guns.

From an earlier post:

And yeah they are pigs. I'll show them respect when they respect others.

So, are you sure that not even one of those officers is a decent guy?

Was the owner of the dog showing respect when he was yelling at the cops, while ignoring simple commands to leave the proximity and film like all the others where it was safer and okay to do so from?

Yeah, I am talking about the group immediately involved. Based on their actions as a whole I'd say that they were less desirable to be serving the public. THEY WORK FOR US.

And you don't know what was said, what they told him to do, just like I don't know. The video shows that he wasn't resisting, and that is all we can tell other than the end. I never said his actions were without guilt, but the conduct of the police that were there looks excessive to me. Since one of those officers (the shooter) was involved in another case that the city had to settle for $1,000,000 I'd say he is prone to abuse and is a bad example of an officer that is supposed to serve and protect.

This might be a case of excessive policing... but let's also acknowledge:

* He wasn't resisting and the officers' level of force was at a minimum towards him as a result.

* The dog was menacing and its level of anxiety was rising. We cannot say that the cop who shot the dog really wanted to shoot the dog or if he reluctantly shot the dog. We can say that the dog was a threat- it wasn't looking to play fetch: it was agitated and becoming more so as the moment got more tense.

* The owner is to blame for the dog's death. He stuck his nose where it didn't belong. He did not secure his dog within the car and it jumped out the window to find its fate. Just as a dog owner would be responsible for failing to secure their dog and it leaves to attack a child... this guy failed to prevent his dog from approaching the officers. To expect more from the officers is a little unfair- we weren't the ones being challenged by the 80 pound Rottweiler.

Godfather.

Thirty Bills I agree, in the same situation I may have done the same as the cop.
My good Bro. raises Rotties (5 adult rotties in his shop at all times) and I have been nipped more than once but on the other hand they enjoy sitting on my lap when I sit on the couch

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

even flow - question mark wrote:

The only thing I'll comment on is the fact that they could have done the dog justice by putting it out of it's writhing misery.

Agreed. Just standing there watching it thrash around like that is pretty dispicable. If you're so willing to shoot a dog, at least be man enough to finish the fucking job. That cop was quick on his feet when it came to filling it with holes, but once it came to putting it out of its misery, he just stood there like an idiot. :x

PJ_Soul

unsung wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

unsung wrote:

Fwiw, my stepfather was a K9 officer for over twenty years so I've been around it my entire life. My opinions are based off first hand information.

'Some of my best friends are black..." :fp:

When you use a term like pigs you have crossed the same line as the N word or any of the other terrible terms out there.

I refuse to pretend these clowns are heroes, they are cowards. And there is no racism involved, so no it is nowhere near the same thing.

Also, calling the cops pigs is not at all in line with using the N word. So there's that.
Not that I call cops pigs.... but come on.

PJ_Soul

unsung wrote:

The dog was barking when it was in the car, it wasn't when it got out. It was trying to get to its' master and if you knew dog behavior you'd know they show aggression and then stop short as this one did. They do that to see if the target would back off, which the cop didn't.

I don't even know that much about dog behaviour, and I knew that while I was watching the vid the first time. It was very clear to me that the dog was not showing enough aggression for someone to shoot it.

Is no one else concerned that such a knee jerk reaction with the gun on the part of the cop is scary as fuck? I don't think that kind of reaction should necessarily be something that is assumed to be exclusive to dogs that are showing mild aggression.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul wrote:

even flow - question mark wrote:

The only thing I'll comment on is the fact that they could have done the dog justice by putting it out of it's writhing misery.

Agreed. Just standing there watching it thrash around like that is pretty dispicable. If you're so willing to shoot a dog, at least be man enough to finish the fucking job. That cop was quick on his feet when it came to filling it with holes, but once it came to putting it out of its misery, he just stood there like an idiot. :x

It was a disturbing scene. I'm not a veterinarian, but the twitching at the end were involuntary nerve reflexes and the dog was likely dead at that time. Shooting it more at that point would be nothing more than mutilation.

Again... I'm playing Devil's advocate... but the cop may have been sitting there, feeling really shitty, and regretting the incident. I'm pretty confident that all involved never wished for the scene to play out as it did.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

even flow - question mark wrote:

The only thing I'll comment on is the fact that they could have done the dog justice by putting it out of it's writhing misery.

Agreed. Just standing there watching it thrash around like that is pretty dispicable. If you're so willing to shoot a dog, at least be man enough to finish the fucking job. That cop was quick on his feet when it came to filling it with holes, but once it came to putting it out of its misery, he just stood there like an idiot. :x

It was a disturbing scene. I'm not a veterinarian, but the twitching at the end were involuntary nerve reflexes and the dog was likely dead at that time. Shooting it more at that point would be nothing more than mutilation.

Again... I'm playing Devil's advocate... but the cop may have been sitting there, feeling really shitty, and regretting the incident. I'm pretty confident that all involved never wished for the scene to play out as it did.

Those were not involuntary nerve reflexes of a dead dog man. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're wrong.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul wrote:

unsung wrote:

The dog was barking when it was in the car, it wasn't when it got out. It was trying to get to its' master and if you knew dog behavior you'd know they show aggression and then stop short as this one did. They do that to see if the target would back off, which the cop didn't.

I don't even know that much about dog behaviour, and I knew that while I was watching the vid the first time. It was very clear to me that the dog was not showing enough aggression for someone to shoot it.

Is no one else concerned that such a knee jerk reaction with the gun on the part of the cop is scary as fuck? I don't think that kind of reaction should necessarily be something that is assumed to be exclusive to dogs that are showing mild aggression.

This is moving way up the ladder of inference.

As I said before... it's pretty unfair to judge from our keyboards what should have been done and how things should have been handled while not face to face with the potential threat. If I'm one of the cops... I would have felt threatened. To assume everyone has the dog whisperer's disposition and should feel secure around an animal who's very breed has maimed and even killed people is a stretch to say the least. Give these guys a break.

Was the dog growling? Can anyone tell? It wasn't exactly wagging it's tail and leaping about playfully. It was lunging in and out and it began to jump up at the officers.

I get the impression some of you think that a cop should be inflicted with a bite wound before he is allowed to defend himself. Where can I sign up to be one?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul wrote:

Those were not involuntary nerve reflexes of a dead dog man. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're wrong.

I've seen the exact thing from a dog that was hit by a car right in front of me: on 2 different occasions. I'm pretty sure it was.

And if it wasn't... then that dog was still kicking after 6,7,8...? shots. And you are suggesting that they did what to subdue it?

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

unsung wrote:

The dog was barking when it was in the car, it wasn't when it got out. It was trying to get to its' master and if you knew dog behavior you'd know they show aggression and then stop short as this one did. They do that to see if the target would back off, which the cop didn't.

I don't even know that much about dog behaviour, and I knew that while I was watching the vid the first time. It was very clear to me that the dog was not showing enough aggression for someone to shoot it.

Is no one else concerned that such a knee jerk reaction with the gun on the part of the cop is scary as fuck? I don't think that kind of reaction should necessarily be something that is assumed to be exclusive to dogs that are showing mild aggression.

This is moving way up the ladder of inference.

As I said before... it's pretty unfair to judge from our keyboards what should have been done and how things should have been handled while not face to face with the potential threat. If I'm one of the cops... I would have felt threatened. To assume everyone has the dog whisperer's disposition and should feel secure around an animal who's very breed has maimed and even killed people is a stretch to say the least. Give these guys a break.

Was the dog growling? Can anyone tell? It wasn't exactly wagging it's tail and leaping about playfully. It was lunging in and out and it began to jump up at the officers.

I get the impression some of you think that a cop should be inflicted with a bite wound before he is allowed to defend himself. Where can I sign up to be one?

If I'd been the cop, I would have felt threatened too. Hell, I've BEEN at least that threatened by a scary dog before. And there is no way my reaction in that situation, as someone who has actually been in a stand off with a rotti whose owner wasn't even around (it had escaped its yard) would have been to immediately shoot the dog (if I'd had a gun). It would have been to take a few steps back and see what the dog was going to do (and that's just what I did - I held it off just by slowly backing up until someone else came and distracted the dog). NONE of those cops did ANYTHING to calm the dog down or to take a step back to assess the situation IMO, and that is not acceptable. It was still a LIFE, and they took no steps to even try and consider the options, and yes, they DID have to time and opportunity to do so. They chose to bow to momentary chaos instead. That is dangerous. One dog that was NOT attacking vs a bunch of cops with guns. Nice. Again, I can't believe so many of you are defending that cop's actions.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Those were not involuntary nerve reflexes of a dead dog man. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're wrong.

I've seen the exact thing from a dog that was hit by a car right in front of me: on 2 different occasions. I'm pretty sure it was.

And if it wasn't... then that dog was still kicking after 6,7,8...? shots. And you are suggesting that they did what to subdue it?

And I've seen the same thing while my cat was suffocating as her lungs failed. She was very obviously conscious. I could tell because my face was 8 inches from hers.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul wrote:

Also, calling the cops pigs is not at all in line with using the N word. So there's that.
Not that I call cops pigs.... but come on.

How is it not all all in line?

It's a terrible term to demean a group of individuals based on a characteristic...this being their profession.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Also, calling the cops pigs is not at all in line with using the N word. So there's that.
Not that I call cops pigs.... but come on.

How is it not all all in line?

It's a terrible term to demean a group of individuals based on a characteristic...this being their profession.

One is racist, while the other is a derogatory term used against people in a particular profession. The same as calling lawyers bottom feeders. It is NOT the same thing. Being a cop is not characteristic. It's a job.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Those were not involuntary nerve reflexes of a dead dog man. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're wrong.

I've seen the exact thing from a dog that was hit by a car right in front of me: on 2 different occasions. I'm pretty sure it was.

And if it wasn't... then that dog was still kicking after 6,7,8...? shots. And you are suggesting that they did what to subdue it?

And I've seen the same thing while my cat was suffocating as her lungs failed. She was very obviously conscious. I could tell because my face was 8 inches from hers.

Okay. You seem to have an answer for everything here. Four things as I try to let this one go:

1. You have cast judgement on the officers and have deemed them barbaric for defending themselves from a seemingly menacing dog. You say the dog was not challenging them. You say they should have tried a bunch of things instead of shooting it- but never really said what. Your example from your personal experience can't come into play here- the owner was handcuffed and couldn't come to the rescue. The officers are not going to uncuff the guy so that he can control his dog: there are multiple scenarios where this action could be disastrous. I illustrated one, but just use your imagination as to how something like that could backfire dramatically.

2. I would suggest reading up a bit on post mortem nerve reflexes. It might have been what you witnessed during the video- even though you saw a cat from 8 inches from your face that never exhibited residual neural signals. Your dismissal of the notion that this might have been what we witnessed before the dog ceased to move points to a certain level of closed-minded thinking.

3. Why do you ignore the 'tougher to answer' questions such as: would the officers be in the right to defend themselves if the dog bit one of them? And... to that... do they have to wait to get bit before defending themselves?

4. Do you place yourself at risk when you go to work? You seem to speak from the position as one who does. If so... then perhaps I need to reconsider my position. If not... then perhaps you might wish to reconsider yours.