Poor people do not drive Cadillacs. World of Warcraft guild leaders do not date Victoria’s Secret models. And teams with mediocre farm systems do not try to trade for Giancarlo Stanton. It’s called “living within your means”.
Nick Cafardo of the Boston globe reports that the Phillies have attempted to acquire Stanton from the Miami Marlins at least ten times. If you have followed Phillies news throughout the year, this is the least surprising development of the year. The Phillies don’t have the requisite pieces to pull off such a trade. Their best pitching prospect, Jesse Biddle, is at best a #3, and aside from Maikel Franco, their best position player prospects are found at the lower levels of the system.
The Phillies actually made some progress during the year. Expect them to be more in the middle of the pack in Keith Law’s next organizational rankings rather than 27th, as they were back in February. But Cafardo lists a bunch of teams who would be competing with the Phillies for Stanton’s services, including the Tigers, Mets, Mariners, Yankees, Orioles, Angels, and Red Sox. They ranked 25th, 14th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 30th, and 17th, respectively. That’s five teams that can put together significantly more competitive offers than the Phillies could.
This all assumes that Stanton would be worth acquiring for the Phillies, and as obvious a “yes” as it seems, it might not be the case. He had knee surgery in July 2012 and he needed a stint on the DL this past season with a strained right hamstring. Tigers big-bodied first baseman Prince Fielder has logged at least 157 games per season since he started playing regularly and he has accrued at least 680 plate appearances in seven consecutive seasons. Comparatively, Stanton has played in more than 123 games once and he maxed out at 601 plate appearances.
Stanton, who turns 24 on November 8, is eligible for arbitration for the first time this off-season. He can become a free agent after the 2016 season, which means that if the Phillies do acquire Stanton, they would want to sign him to a long-term contract at some point in the next three years. Given his on-field performance and reputation, he would negotiate a rather rich deal. As an example, would you feel comfortable signing over $150 million over six years, taking him into his age-30 season? The most attractive feature of trading for Stanton is the opportunity to get not only his age 24-26 arb-eligible years, but his 27-29 post-free-agency prime as well. But if that’s not a relatively risk-free venture, it is likely not worth selling the farm to get him.
The Phillies have learned the hard way why it’s bad to bankrupt your Minor League system. They did exactly that to acquire Hunter Pence from the Houston Astros back in 2011. They sent prospects Jonathan Singleton, Domingo Santana, Jarred Cosart, and Josh Zeid to complete the deal. Going into the 2011 season, Singleton was the organization’s #2 prospect behind Brown; Cosart was #4, and Santana was #9. The trade was a gigantic failure because, first of all, it was a massive overpay. Secondly, the Phillies failed to capitalize on their 102-60 regular season record in 2011, getting ushered out of the NLDS in five games by the St. Louis Cardinals. The Phillies were a sub-.500 team in the first half of 2012, motivating them to recoup value on Pence by trading him to the San Francisco Giants for Nate Schierholtz, Tommy Joseph, and Seth Rosin, a markedly weaker package than they gave up for him a year prior — especially considering the Phillies non-tendered the most valuable piece of that deal several months later.
Selling the farm for Stanton would necessitate a win-now — or win-soon — approach, which the Phillies aren’t in a great position to do, frankly. This is especially true without knowing how they address their many nagging issues. Trading for Stanton would make sense if they also sign, for example, Jacoby Ellsbury and Ricky Nolasco, or Shin-Soo Choo and Brian McCann. The team as it’s presently constructed is patently a sub-.500 squad. Adding Stanton would be putting lipstick on a pig, and Amaro would be bankrupting the future to do it.
Maybe the Phillies can revisit a potential Stanton trade next year. Perhaps the Minor League system will have made even more progress and the team will be markedly closer to being a post-season contender. Right now, the Phillies are a Wendy’s fry cook trying to drive off the lot with a Cadillac.
Stop trying to make Giancarlo Stanton happen. It’s not going to happen.
not sure how the trade for pence was a failure when none of those guys traded are yet productive major leaguers. cosart pitched 10 games for the worst team in the majors and none of the other 3 played at all. singleton missed the whole year didn't he? the pence trade was the right move at that time.
do I think they are getting Stanton - no I do not for the reasons stated in the article but that doesn't mean I don't want him. again what are the alternatives?
when you have the ability to have a top 3 payroll you don't just give up years and not try to improve. if you want to argue that the current administration is incapable of getting the right guys to improve this team it's hard to argue with that, but that doesn't mean you just blow it up. with the right players signed/acquired there is no reason this team can't be improve by a lot.
Poor people do not drive Cadillacs. World of Warcraft guild leaders do not date Victoria’s Secret models. And teams with mediocre farm systems do not try to trade for Giancarlo Stanton. It’s called “living within your means”.
Nick Cafardo of the Boston globe reports that the Phillies have attempted to acquire Stanton from the Miami Marlins at least ten times. If you have followed Phillies news throughout the year, this is the least surprising development of the year. The Phillies don’t have the requisite pieces to pull off such a trade. Their best pitching prospect, Jesse Biddle, is at best a #3, and aside from Maikel Franco, their best position player prospects are found at the lower levels of the system.
The Phillies actually made some progress during the year. Expect them to be more in the middle of the pack in Keith Law’s next organizational rankings rather than 27th, as they were back in February. But Cafardo lists a bunch of teams who would be competing with the Phillies for Stanton’s services, including the Tigers, Mets, Mariners, Yankees, Orioles, Angels, and Red Sox. They ranked 25th, 14th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 30th, and 17th, respectively. That’s five teams that can put together significantly more competitive offers than the Phillies could.
This all assumes that Stanton would be worth acquiring for the Phillies, and as obvious a “yes” as it seems, it might not be the case. He had knee surgery in July 2012 and he needed a stint on the DL this past season with a strained right hamstring. Tigers big-bodied first baseman Prince Fielder has logged at least 157 games per season since he started playing regularly and he has accrued at least 680 plate appearances in seven consecutive seasons. Comparatively, Stanton has played in more than 123 games once and he maxed out at 601 plate appearances.
Stanton, who turns 24 on November 8, is eligible for arbitration for the first time this off-season. He can become a free agent after the 2016 season, which means that if the Phillies do acquire Stanton, they would want to sign him to a long-term contract at some point in the next three years. Given his on-field performance and reputation, he would negotiate a rather rich deal. As an example, would you feel comfortable signing over $150 million over six years, taking him into his age-30 season? The most attractive feature of trading for Stanton is the opportunity to get not only his age 24-26 arb-eligible years, but his 27-29 post-free-agency prime as well. But if that’s not a relatively risk-free venture, it is likely not worth selling the farm to get him.
The Phillies have learned the hard way why it’s bad to bankrupt your Minor League system. They did exactly that to acquire Hunter Pence from the Houston Astros back in 2011. They sent prospects Jonathan Singleton, Domingo Santana, Jarred Cosart, and Josh Zeid to complete the deal. Going into the 2011 season, Singleton was the organization’s #2 prospect behind Brown; Cosart was #4, and Santana was #9. The trade was a gigantic failure because, first of all, it was a massive overpay. Secondly, the Phillies failed to capitalize on their 102-60 regular season record in 2011, getting ushered out of the NLDS in five games by the St. Louis Cardinals. The Phillies were a sub-.500 team in the first half of 2012, motivating them to recoup value on Pence by trading him to the San Francisco Giants for Nate Schierholtz, Tommy Joseph, and Seth Rosin, a markedly weaker package than they gave up for him a year prior — especially considering the Phillies non-tendered the most valuable piece of that deal several months later.
Selling the farm for Stanton would necessitate a win-now — or win-soon — approach, which the Phillies aren’t in a great position to do, frankly. This is especially true without knowing how they address their many nagging issues. Trading for Stanton would make sense if they also sign, for example, Jacoby Ellsbury and Ricky Nolasco, or Shin-Soo Choo and Brian McCann. The team as it’s presently constructed is patently a sub-.500 squad. Adding Stanton would be putting lipstick on a pig, and Amaro would be bankrupting the future to do it.
Maybe the Phillies can revisit a potential Stanton trade next year. Perhaps the Minor League system will have made even more progress and the team will be markedly closer to being a post-season contender. Right now, the Phillies are a Wendy’s fry cook trying to drive off the lot with a Cadillac.
Stop trying to make Giancarlo Stanton happen. It’s not going to happen.
not sure how the trade for pence was a failure when none of those guys traded are yet productive major leaguers. cosart pitched 10 games for the worst team in the majors and none of the other 3 played at all. singleton missed the whole year didn't he? the pence trade was the right move at that time.
do I think they are getting Stanton - no I do not for the reasons stated in the article but that doesn't mean I don't want him. again what are the alternatives?
when you have the ability to have a top 3 payroll you don't just give up years and not try to improve. if you want to argue that the current administration is incapable of getting the right guys to improve this team it's hard to argue with that, but that doesn't mean you just blow it up. with the right players signed/acquired there is no reason this team can't be improve by a lot.
It doesn't matter if the guys played in the majors. They are still quality prospects. No, singleton did not miss the entire year. He still projects to be a solid MLB 1B. As usual, amaro handled that situation horribly (traded away good pieces for pence, then got a shitty return when he turned around and traded pence).
boston has a top 3 payroll. they gave up last year and lost 93 games. worked out pretty well for them. That is what they should do...dump their overpaid, past their prime guys. Especially with an underwhelming free agent class this offseason. Unfortunately, amaro doesn't have the fortitude to see beyond the here and now...he will overpay guys who are undeserving and continue to throw dirt on this teams' grave.
so yeah, they are screwed as long as he is calling the shots.
The only ballsy move that could help this franchise right now - that would be incredibly shrewd - would be get two FA outfielders, or a combination of OF/RP, OF/SP, OF/some other solid player, and trade Brown.
The only ballsy move that could help this franchise right now - that would be incredibly shrewd - would be get two FA outfielders, or a combination of OF/RP, OF/SP, OF/some other solid player, and trade Brown.
The only positions where they are above average for 2014 are 2B and SS. Even if they add 2 OFs it probably still isn't enough. And that's before you start talking about the holes in their pitching staff.
Not trying to be debbie downer here, but it's the truth.
On the bright side, at least their manager has a clue, which will be a welcomed change
The only ballsy move that could help this franchise right now - that would be incredibly shrewd - would be get two FA outfielders, or a combination of OF/RP, OF/SP, OF/some other solid player, and trade Brown.
The only positions where they are above average for 2014 are 2B and SS. Even if they add 2 OFs it probably still isn't enough. And that's before you start talking about the holes in their pitching staff.
Not trying to be debbie downer here, but it's the truth.
On the bright side, at least their manager has a clue, which will be a welcomed change
Though, really, getting power production out of 2 of your OF positions would help immensely. The rest of the holes need to be more about getting on-base.
Staying healthy is always a start, but they have no idea what they're getting out of the 3-5 spots in their rotation - that's probably the biggest problem.
I don't agree with the thought that we can be Boston and rebounding, but I also don't think in this new setup of how to build a team, how many teams can contend with the extra WC spot, that it'll be forever before it turns around again.
And what I was trying to say - the only ballsy moves they have left to make, which Amaro won't do, is trade Brown. Followed by Lee and Hamels.
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The only thing better than people bringing up their political views in here is when it's done on Facebook or in a bar. Oh, or even better, when I get to be talked down to upon by my girlfriend's crazy religous, right-wing, family. The best part is every time they get on their high horse I give the same glazed over look that stares right through them as I nod my head trying to slip out of the conversation - even more, this kind of body language of mine they take as I agree with them. Hilarious.
facebook is the worst with that shit. just because you have this "virtual pulpit" doesn't mean everyone wants to be reminded of your political views on an hourly basis. whether i agree or disagree--i don't give a poop what you think.
Speaking of horrendous administrations...what a joke this is. Most teams have entire analytics departments, the phils can't even hire one dedicated employee. I can't even get mad anymore, just makes me shake my head as I brace myself for another inevitable disastrous amaro offseason.
A day before the 2013 season came to an end, Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said the organization was looking to make some changes, including adding some aspects of analytics into their baseball operations department.
“Look, we are going to continue to be a scouting organization,” Amaro said at the time. “That said, I think we owe it to ourselves to look at some other ways to evaluate. … If we have any changes at all it, they will be pretty minor.”
A little more than a month later, the Phillies have made that minor move.
Scott Freedman will work with the Phillies this offseason in adding advanced metrics into their player evaluation process. Freedman works in Major League Baseball’s labor relations department, where he assists teams in salary arbitration cases, among other things.
Freedman, however, is not a Phillies employee, assistant general manager Scott Proefrock said.
“He’s joined us through the commissioner’s office,” said Proefrock referring to the arrangement as an “externship.”
“He’s here for a period of time,” Proefrock continued. “We were contacted by (the commissioner’s office) this summer. They proposed the arrangement, we had a need and took advantage of it. He’s a bright guy. It might become something more than (the current role).”
The Phillies have drawn criticism in the last few years for being slow to incorporate advanced baseball metrics, also known as sabermetrics, into their player evaluation. Author and historian Bill James, who coined the term “sabermetrics” has been on the Boston Red Sox staff since 2003.
The Red Sox have won three World Series with James on the staff. James is currently the senior advisor of baseball operations for the Red Sox.
the new wegmans that just opened near me has a ton of pumpkin beer. i thought most places were just about sold out by now? stocked up on some punkin ale tonight. :thumbup:
the new wegmans that just opened near me has a ton of pumpkin beer. i thought most places were just about sold out by now? stocked up on some punkin ale tonight. :thumbup:
Oversaturated. It's way too much for my liking.
New PJ album and too much pumpkin beer - not my bag...
the new wegmans that just opened near me has a ton of pumpkin beer. i thought most places were just about sold out by now? stocked up on some punkin ale tonight. :thumbup:
Oversaturated. It's way too much for my liking.
New PJ album and too much pumpkin beer - not my bag...
your bag stinks.
there was something off with the one i had tonight. didn't taste right.
2 yr/16M - that's actually not that bad for a guy to fill the void until.....well, until they figure what the hell will be a decent long-term plan in the OF.
Could've done without the 2nd year, but it's definitely not killing them payroll-wise as opposed to signing someone like Cruz would do.
I'm assuming there's going to be money dedicated towards the 'pen/catcher not named Ruiz (hopefully) - feel like this a preceding move to something else.
there was something off with the one i had tonight. didn't taste right.
it's pumpkin beer, for crissakes :roll:
If I had known then what I know now...
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Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
2 yr/16M - that's actually not that bad for a guy to fill the void until.....well, until they figure what the hell will be a decent long-term plan in the OF.
Could've done without the 2nd year, but it's definitely not killing them payroll-wise as opposed to signing someone like Cruz would do.
I'm assuming there's going to be money dedicated towards the 'pen/catcher not named Ruiz (hopefully) - feel like this a preceding move to something else.
Wow another guy that never walks will fit in real well with last years Phillies team.
I guess the Philly front office really doesn't care about OBP.
2 yr/16M - that's actually not that bad for a guy to fill the void until.....well, until they figure what the hell will be a decent long-term plan in the OF.
Could've done without the 2nd year, but it's definitely not killing them payroll-wise as opposed to signing someone like Cruz would do.
I'm assuming there's going to be money dedicated towards the 'pen/catcher not named Ruiz (hopefully) - feel like this a preceding move to something else.
Wow another guy that never walks will fit in real well with last years Phillies team.
I guess the Philly front office really doesn't care about OBP.
I'm assuming you're a Red Sox fan - I think. Please justify Johnny Gomes like Tim McCarver did. HE'S A WINNER.
It's not a good signing, but it's not a terrible signing.
2 yr/16M - that's actually not that bad for a guy to fill the void until.....well, until they figure what the hell will be a decent long-term plan in the OF.
Could've done without the 2nd year, but it's definitely not killing them payroll-wise as opposed to signing someone like Cruz would do.
I'm assuming there's going to be money dedicated towards the 'pen/catcher not named Ruiz (hopefully) - feel like this a preceding move to something else.
Wow another guy that never walks will fit in real well with last years Phillies team.
I guess the Philly front office really doesn't care about OBP.
I'm assuming you're a Red Sox fan - I think. Please justify Johnny Gomes like Tim McCarver did. HE'S A WINNER.
It's not a good signing, but it's not a terrible signing.
I am a Sox fan. Gomes is making a lot less than Marlon Byrd.
Don't worry though I think every free agent signing by all MLB teams will be a bad signing in the offseason with all the extra money the teams have from the TV deal.
Wow another guy that never walks will fit in real well with last years Phillies team.
I guess the Philly front office really doesn't care about OBP.
I'm assuming you're a Red Sox fan - I think. Please justify Johnny Gomes like Tim McCarver did. HE'S A WINNER.
It's not a good signing, but it's not a terrible signing.
I am a Sox fan. Gomes is making a lot less than Marlon Byrd.
Don't worry though I think every free agent signing by all MLB teams will be a bad signing in the offseason with all the extra money the teams have from the TV deal.
I'm just saying it's surely a hell of a lot less than Beltran, Choo, Ellsbury, Cruz, and Granderson are going to get.
And at 2 years, what else are they going to do? They suck, there's not much coming up through the system to take his place, and they're not getting committed to a lot of money (relatively speaking).
Like I said - it's not great, it's also not terrible.
Comments
not sure how the trade for pence was a failure when none of those guys traded are yet productive major leaguers. cosart pitched 10 games for the worst team in the majors and none of the other 3 played at all. singleton missed the whole year didn't he? the pence trade was the right move at that time.
do I think they are getting Stanton - no I do not for the reasons stated in the article but that doesn't mean I don't want him. again what are the alternatives?
when you have the ability to have a top 3 payroll you don't just give up years and not try to improve. if you want to argue that the current administration is incapable of getting the right guys to improve this team it's hard to argue with that, but that doesn't mean you just blow it up. with the right players signed/acquired there is no reason this team can't be improve by a lot.
LB is a solid album! ...
It doesn't matter if the guys played in the majors. They are still quality prospects. No, singleton did not miss the entire year. He still projects to be a solid MLB 1B. As usual, amaro handled that situation horribly (traded away good pieces for pence, then got a shitty return when he turned around and traded pence).
boston has a top 3 payroll. they gave up last year and lost 93 games. worked out pretty well for them. That is what they should do...dump their overpaid, past their prime guys. Especially with an underwhelming free agent class this offseason. Unfortunately, amaro doesn't have the fortitude to see beyond the here and now...he will overpay guys who are undeserving and continue to throw dirt on this teams' grave.
so yeah, they are screwed as long as he is calling the shots.
The only positions where they are above average for 2014 are 2B and SS. Even if they add 2 OFs it probably still isn't enough. And that's before you start talking about the holes in their pitching staff.
Not trying to be debbie downer here, but it's the truth.
On the bright side, at least their manager has a clue, which will be a welcomed change
Though, really, getting power production out of 2 of your OF positions would help immensely. The rest of the holes need to be more about getting on-base.
Staying healthy is always a start, but they have no idea what they're getting out of the 3-5 spots in their rotation - that's probably the biggest problem.
I don't agree with the thought that we can be Boston and rebounding, but I also don't think in this new setup of how to build a team, how many teams can contend with the extra WC spot, that it'll be forever before it turns around again.
And what I was trying to say - the only ballsy moves they have left to make, which Amaro won't do, is trade Brown. Followed by Lee and Hamels.
You really read through all that?
Still think Qatar deserves to host the World Cup?
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Las Vegas 5/16/24; Las Vegas 5/18/24; WF Center 9/7/24; WF Center 9/9/24; Baltimore Arena 9/12/24
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
Solid is being generous...
you guys are like an online soap opera! ... always good reading here ...
and yeah - LB is a solid album ...
Hey-oh.
yeah i didn't understand the dislike for it in here. to each his own, though.
Nothing makes any sense anymore.
Hopefully yesterday solidified the end of vick's tenure as an eagle.
Philly sports scene makes as much sense as obamacare. Not good times
Yeah, it's been flawless to this point. :roll:
He is going to go down as one of the worst presidents ever...if not the worst.
Christie '16
The only thing better than people bringing up their political views in here is when it's done on Facebook or in a bar. Oh, or even better, when I get to be talked down to upon by my girlfriend's crazy religous, right-wing, family. The best part is every time they get on their high horse I give the same glazed over look that stares right through them as I nod my head trying to slip out of the conversation - even more, this kind of body language of mine they take as I agree with them. Hilarious.
go phils.
A day before the 2013 season came to an end, Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said the organization was looking to make some changes, including adding some aspects of analytics into their baseball operations department.
“Look, we are going to continue to be a scouting organization,” Amaro said at the time. “That said, I think we owe it to ourselves to look at some other ways to evaluate. … If we have any changes at all it, they will be pretty minor.”
A little more than a month later, the Phillies have made that minor move.
Scott Freedman will work with the Phillies this offseason in adding advanced metrics into their player evaluation process. Freedman works in Major League Baseball’s labor relations department, where he assists teams in salary arbitration cases, among other things.
Freedman, however, is not a Phillies employee, assistant general manager Scott Proefrock said.
“He’s joined us through the commissioner’s office,” said Proefrock referring to the arrangement as an “externship.”
“He’s here for a period of time,” Proefrock continued. “We were contacted by (the commissioner’s office) this summer. They proposed the arrangement, we had a need and took advantage of it. He’s a bright guy. It might become something more than (the current role).”
The Phillies have drawn criticism in the last few years for being slow to incorporate advanced baseball metrics, also known as sabermetrics, into their player evaluation. Author and historian Bill James, who coined the term “sabermetrics” has been on the Boston Red Sox staff since 2003.
The Red Sox have won three World Series with James on the staff. James is currently the senior advisor of baseball operations for the Red Sox.
Oversaturated. It's way too much for my liking.
New PJ album and too much pumpkin beer - not my bag...
your bag stinks.
there was something off with the one i had tonight. didn't taste right.
Couldn't be happier.......
...........
Could've done without the 2nd year, but it's definitely not killing them payroll-wise as opposed to signing someone like Cruz would do.
I'm assuming there's going to be money dedicated towards the 'pen/catcher not named Ruiz (hopefully) - feel like this a preceding move to something else.
it's pumpkin beer, for crissakes :roll:
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Thank you.
Wow another guy that never walks will fit in real well with last years Phillies team.
I guess the Philly front office really doesn't care about OBP.
I'm assuming you're a Red Sox fan - I think. Please justify Johnny Gomes like Tim McCarver did. HE'S A WINNER.
It's not a good signing, but it's not a terrible signing.
I am a Sox fan. Gomes is making a lot less than Marlon Byrd.
Don't worry though I think every free agent signing by all MLB teams will be a bad signing in the offseason with all the extra money the teams have from the TV deal.
I'm just saying it's surely a hell of a lot less than Beltran, Choo, Ellsbury, Cruz, and Granderson are going to get.
And at 2 years, what else are they going to do? They suck, there's not much coming up through the system to take his place, and they're not getting committed to a lot of money (relatively speaking).
Like I said - it's not great, it's also not terrible.
Wouldn't be surprised of this is Ruben bidding against himself.