Purpose for USA??

badbrains

https://www.google.com/search?q=pie+of+ ... =416#i=100

Seems to me to wage war......

comebackgirl

fear4freedom wrote:

Zoso wrote:

fear4freedom wrote:

I see the people who are mis-informed here, becoming the entitlement class and the "sheeple" of this nation. They are the followers and the media owns them! They will vote for people who promise them things, not the ones who will take those things away. If you want America to get her books balanced, then you must tell the "takers" to accept less things! We must empower the "makers" to generate more wealth with less regulations! Its that simple!

is it as simple as going to tell a VERY poor person (i mean unable to eat without help from the govt) that they can't eat today because they have to take less from now on?

Come on Zoso, Im referring to 99 weeks of unemployment! 99 weeks? are you kiddin me? Im talking about the cheaters who take as much welfare as they can get and spend the food stamps on beer and drugs. Im talking about the cheaters, mockers and takers who abuse the system. Im talking about those who take Social Security and then use 1/3 of it to play the lottery, buy alcohol and drugs, buy stereos and tv's with it.
They are not charitable in the sense that they spend more on themselves gratification than giving to charities! I see it! So you are dividing here.....and your statement derails us from the subject!

There are people that misuse the system. There are. Plain and simple. I have people who want me to sign off on their disability papers when they absolutely can work (I refuse), there are people who will take the full 99 weeks of unemployment while working under the table, and there are people that will work the system in a variety of ways. I think it's important to look at why that is so. I think there is an entire culture that plays into that (and not just a sense of entitlement as we hear repeatedly). However, in my experience, the large majority of people do not want to use the system even when they most need to. Largely this is shame-based, but also because people feel good when they are able to self-actualize and work and accomplish things. It feels awesome. But there will always be people, through no fault of their own, who will not be able to do so. This may be because of a physical or mental disability, or just never being given a fair chance for a variety of reasons. There has to be a balance between preventing (as much as possible) people from abusing the system, as well as supporting people who just weren't lucky enough to be born with the same abilities and opportunities. IMO we should empower people who can do for themselves, and support those who need the support.

catefrances

fear4freedom wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

fear4freedom wrote:

Capitalism gave us a chance to minimize slavery and bad work conditions.

!

Democracy made that and not Capitalism..and USA wasnt the one invent Democracy ..

DUDE America has the oldest current form of govt. in the world! Most of the world has modeled their new democracy after ours! France has had 17 new forms of govt in the past 250 years! Get your facts straight and understand that most of the world is using our belief system now in many ways. China is slowly accepting Capitalism! Russia wont cause they dont make things! They just have energy resources.

America is the newest big nation and has the oldest govt. running democracy. That says alot!
It says that we are exceptional! We just need to balance our budget and promote ethical Capitalism!

ethical capitalism??? as if such a thing exists... or can exist. :roll:

fear4freedom

DUDE America has the oldest current form of govt. in the world! Most of the world has modeled their new democracy after ours! France has had 17 new forms of govt in the past 250 years! Get your facts straight and understand that most of the world is using our belief system now in many ways. China is slowly accepting Capitalism! Russia wont cause they dont make things! They just have energy resources.

America is the newest big nation and has the oldest govt. running democracy. That says alot!
It says that we are exceptional! We just need to balance our budget and promote ethical Capitalism![/quote]

ethical capitalism??? as if such a thing exists... or can exist. :roll: [/quote]

SEE! Thats your problem right there! How can you say that if I earn a right to open my own business, take risks and hire people all while giving myself back to others, HOW CAN YOU SAY THATS NOT GOOD? HOW?
You mean you live in a world where %100 of everything is evil and fake? You must want to jump off a bridge all day long! How can you live with yourself! Do you think Pearl Jam is evil? Cause they made money ethically ! How about all the GOOD people out there? Your world must be very dark!

otter

Drowned Out wrote:

It amazes me that christians can judge a muslim claiming divinity as justification for policy to be a religious extremist (or an Arab muslim doing so, to be a terrorist), yet not see the irony in claiming their country is 'blessed by god', or 'exceptional'....Claiming to 'understand your role and be grateful', as god's will, is a way to wash the blood from your hands without lookin any deeper into the policy. A way of selling war to lazy thinkers. So much for separation of church and state.

American exceptionalism has been an over-arching theme used to justify nearly every military conflict the US has been engaged in for two centuries. Judging by the way you make the US out to be the 'shining city on the hill', you see your country as benevolent in it's foreign policy....which means you are either ignorant to, or purposefully neglecting to mention the benefits reaped by exceptionalist/imperialist policies. You are either ignorant to, or purposefully neglecting to mention your country's role in creating or exasperating weakness and poverty. And this ulterior motive, this hidden agenda applies not only to military funding and actions, but also to most conditional 'aid' packages....and to many western charities and missions, which operate with political intent designed to benefit western powers and their corporate overlords.............

Yes the US has done a lot of good in the world. But as a matter of national policy, it's pretty fuckin rare....in general, which weak and poor peoples are 'defended' is determined by benefit, not compassion.

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

fear4freedom

otter wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

It amazes me that christians can judge a muslim claiming divinity as justification for policy to be a religious extremist (or an Arab muslim doing so, to be a terrorist), yet not see the irony in claiming their country is 'blessed by god', or 'exceptional'....Claiming to 'understand your role and be grateful', as god's will, is a way to wash the blood from your hands without lookin any deeper into the policy. A way of selling war to lazy thinkers. So much for separation of church and state.

American exceptionalism has been an over-arching theme used to justify nearly every military conflict the US has been engaged in for two centuries. Judging by the way you make the US out to be the 'shining city on the hill', you see your country as benevolent in it's foreign policy....which means you are either ignorant to, or purposefully neglecting to mention the benefits reaped by exceptionalist/imperialist policies. You are either ignorant to, or purposefully neglecting to mention your country's role in creating or exasperating weakness and poverty. And this ulterior motive, this hidden agenda applies not only to military funding and actions, but also to most conditional 'aid' packages....and to many western charities and missions, which operate with political intent designed to benefit western powers and their corporate overlords.............

Yes the US has done a lot of good in the world. But as a matter of national policy, it's pretty fuckin rare....in general, which weak and poor peoples are 'defended' is determined by benefit, not compassion.

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

OTTER Where have you been? Where is the LIKE BUTTON? AMEN!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

otter wrote:

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

if it weren't for the US, millions of Iraqi civilians would still be alive and their lives would be completely different.

otter

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

otter wrote:

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

if it weren't for the US, millions of Iraqi civilians would still be alive and their lives would be completely different.

Or they would be dead. Killed by the asshole that the US military took out. And the living's lives would be completely different; oppressed under a tyrannical dictator instead of having the opportunity to choose for themselves.

There would be no western civilization if it weren't for the US; it would have been snuffed out a long time ago. The only chance this world has is if the Arabs embrace this civilization. And they do, it is the dickheads in power who embrace the uncivilized culture of Islam.

Drowned Out

otter wrote:

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter.

It tweaks all the time....the overall policy has been expansionist for centuries. That's capitalism by nature, right?
What is so different about Obama's policy? Bush captured 'terrorists' (resistance fighters?) and shipped them all over the world to torture them. Obama kills them by remote control. Different? sure....any less imperialist? um, no.
What was so different about Carter? His support for Suharto (Indonesia), Somoza (Nicaragua), Chun (South Korea) and other mass murderers was based solely on economic and strategic benefit to the US military/corporate empire....the guy is practically a founding father of al qaeda ffs.

otter wrote:

Imperialist? Get real.

This map is five+ years old, but it shows 63 countries with US/NATO military bases. We can add several more since then. In 2013, the US will deploy troops to 35+ African countries. That's pretty fuckin real, yo.

otter wrote:

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

Yes, I will dismiss the italicized sentence, because it's simply not true. I'd like to hear your version tho, because I know it's a pretty commonly held belief in your country, and this is another opportunity to dispell the myth. Please try not to use the words 'atomic bombs', or you're already wrong. And again....where was the US for the first half of the war? Were it's aims in joining the war benevolent, self defense, or profit? You can argue the two latter points, but the fact that the US stood on the sidelines for years (of course while funding both sides), kinda makes the former hard to justify.
As for the USSR taking over Europe if not for the US....you pretend there would be a vacuumif the US didn't exist in it's current form, and that the US had no interest in the cold war, other than helping the poor Europeans stave off the hungry russian bear...

The major disconnect here is that a person such as yourself who has bought into american exceptionalism cannot see empire, because you believe the US is spreading democracy and liberty. But you are willing to outright dismiss proof that every US president has supported dictators and funded 'terrorists', in line with economic and military goals. How can you say you are spreading democracy while backing dictators?

Making blinkered, absolute statements like "the US makes the world a better place" tells me you prob didn't even gag on the sinker.....you could say that is true, or not true, about any country.

Drowned Out

otter wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

otter wrote:

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

if it weren't for the US, millions of Iraqi civilians would still be alive and their lives would be completely different.

Or they would be dead. Killed by the asshole that the US military took out. And the living's lives would be completely different; oppressed under a tyrannical dictator instead of having the opportunity to choose for themselves.

There would be no western civilization if it weren't for the US; it would have been snuffed out a long time ago. The only chance this world has is if the Arabs embrace this civilization. And they do, it is the dickheads in power who embrace the uncivilized culture of Islam.

oh I see now....your exceptionalism is a mask for racism. nevermind, then!

otter

And there it is...the final cry of a loser..."you are a racist"

Surely you wouldn't argue that the Islamic culture is civilized, because that is just silly.

Drowned Out

otter wrote:

And there it is...the final cry of a loser..."you are a racist"

Surely you wouldn't argue that the Islamic culture is civilized, because that is just silly.

loser?
ok otter.....which 'islamic culture' are we talking about? I'm guessing you mean 'arab culture' in general...which is why i mentioned racism. you realize there is no singular islamic culture, right? of course you do. Now please enlighten us with your vast knowledge of islam.

(I hope you're not going to just call me a loser and ignore my other post. but that wouldn't surprise me. USA! USA! USA!)

otter

Capitalism is good. Capitalism works. Capitalism is natural. Capitalism doesn't need to force others to join because everyone wants to make money and have a easier and better life.

Bush didn't ship terrorists all over the world in order to torture them. That's idiotic. 2 mass murderers suffered simulated drowning. Ask a POW what torture is. Carter was just as passive as Obama if not more so. This kind of leadership perpetuates war it doesn't subdue it. The Obama drone strikes kill so called bad guys but does nothing to deter those who are hell bent on defeating the western culture and instituting the Islamic culture on the world. Carter and Obama both try to appease the enemy of the west, but the effort is futile.

US troops are all over the world...yes...what would happen if they all came home? The US is making states around the world the US is protecting those who can't protect themselves. Come on son....

The US gov't didn't give aid to Hitler. Again, come on son... FDR made every effort to stay neutral until Japan attacked. And don't forget that Hitler had made an agreement with Japan prior to that attack. The US allied with Britain for all the reasons you mentioned, so what's your point. My point is that if not for the good the US did Hitler would have succeeded and after the Jews next the Catholics would have been in the ovens.

The USSR would have absolutely spread communism across Europe there would have been no stopping it. The dominoes would have fallen just like they did when the US left Vietnam. Come on son..

The US back dictators with money so that the US has influence. The dictators you speak of would be incredibly brutal if not for US influence. come on son!!!

If it weren't for the US we wouldn't be having this discussion because we would be relegated to our 'hood yo.

come on son!!

Byrnzie

otter wrote:

if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different

So on one hand you claim that Germany would have won the war without the intervention of the U.S - simply not true - and in the very next sentence you claim that the Soviets would have swept through Europe.

No contradiction there then.

Byrnzie

otter wrote:

There would be no western civilization if it weren't for the US; it would have been snuffed out a long time ago. The only chance this world has is if the Arabs embrace this civilization. And they do, it is the dickheads in power who embrace the uncivilized culture of Islam.

More ignorant bigotry on AMT. Just what we need.

Drowned Out

otter wrote:

Capitalism is good. Capitalism works. Capitalism is natural. Capitalism doesn't need to force others to join because everyone wants to make money and have a easier and better life.

nope! I'd say the majority of the worlds population couldn't give a shit about money as long as they had a better life. That's just your uncivilized culture talking again. IMO, capitalism, esp when enforced by a military superpower and with state subsidies determining who fails and who succeeds, is detrimental to poor (particularly indeginous) peoples attaining that better life.

otter wrote:

Bush didn't ship terrorists all over the world in order to torture them. That's idiotic. 2 mass murderers suffered simulated drowning. Ask a POW what torture is.

You're lying, straight up, and you know it. widespread and well documented.

otter wrote:

Carter was just as passive as Obama if not more so. This kind of leadership perpetuates war it doesn't subdue it. The Obama drone strikes kill so called bad guys but does nothing to deter those who are hell bent on defeating the western culture and instituting the Islamic culture on the world. Carter and Obama both try to appease the enemy of the west, but the effort is futile.

Typical....not enough war = bad president.
Still waiting on this definition of 'Islamic culture'.

otter wrote:

US troops are all over the world...yes...what would happen if they all came home? The US is making states around the world the US is protecting those who can't protect themselves. Come on son....

oh right...you're just there to protect people. No other reasons. No actually I don't know what would happen if they all came home... But you seem to....clue me in? Let me guess...someone would 'take them over'! Bad guys would swarm! The hapless locals could never find another ally, let alone fend for themselves....

otter wrote:

The US gov't didn't give aid to Hitler. Again, come on son...

Thought I had made it pretty clear that I'm talking about the American empire - including her business interests. Which, absolutely DID fund Hitler (I never used the word aid).....they were major shareholders - they profited from them, supplied them, protected them...yes, even during and after the war. Standard Oil, Ford, GM, Dupont, IBM, Coke, and of course, the banks and many more..... but then I'm guessing you knew this too, and are using selective facts/revisionist history in order to prop up this righteous image you're trying to conjure for your state.

otter wrote:

FDR made every effort to stay neutral until Japan attacked.

Well that wasn't very exceptional of him now was it?

otter wrote:

And don't forget that Hitler had made an agreement with Japan prior to that attack. The US allied with Britain for all the reasons you mentioned, so what's your point. My point is that if not for the good the US did Hitler would have succeeded and after the Jews next the Catholics would have been in the ovens.

The USSR would have absolutely spread communism across Europe there would have been no stopping it. The dominoes would have fallen just like they did when the US left Vietnam. Come on son..

The US back dictators with money so that the US has influence. The dictators you speak of would be incredibly brutal if not for US influence. come on son!!!

If it weren't for the US we wouldn't be having this discussion because we would be relegated to our 'hood yo.

come on son!!

I'm runnin out of steam here....I'll let someone else address your hypotheticals if they feel like playing pretend with you. I hope someone spends some time on your justification of support for murderous regimes by saying 'they'd have been worse if we didn't support them'....hilariously hypocritical in context of this thread. I guess US foreign policy is based on being able to see the future. And who can argue with that when you're led by the almighty himself?
cuckoo!

Byrnzie

otter wrote:

The US back dictators with money so that the US has influence. The dictators you speak of would be incredibly brutal if not for US influence.

Tell that to the people of Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua.

Though maybe you've not heard of those countries before? You didn't just support them with money, you supported them with arms, military training, and media propaganda, when they were slaughtering their civilian populations.


And by the way, the U.S supported Sadaam Hussein throughout the 1980's.

fear4freedom

Byrnzie wrote:

otter wrote:

The US back dictators with money so that the US has influence. The dictators you speak of would be incredibly brutal if not for US influence.

Tell that to the people of Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua.

Though maybe you've not heard of those countries before? You didn't just support them with money, you supported them with arms, military training, and media propaganda, when they were slaughtering their civilian populations.


And by the way, the U.S supported Sadaam Hussein throughout the 1980's.

Just as we supported Assad lately! You cant begin to think what people's actions are going to be in the future! We try to help those in need. When we do, people like you hate it, when we dont, people like you use it for ammunition! LOSE LOSE with people like you who never see ANY good!

Moonpig

otter wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

otter wrote:

The US policy changes all the time. The current policy under Obama (Commander in Chief) is completely different than any other policy in American history, except maybe Carter. Imperialist? Get real.

The US has done most of the good in the world. Currently it is all conversation, Obama has done absolutely nada. You will probably dismiss this but if it weren't for the US then Germany would have won the 2nd World War and all our lives would be completely different. If it weren't for the US the Soviet Union would have swept through Europe and all our lives would be completely different. The fact is the founders of this country put together a system that makes the world a better place for us humans. I don't want to live under tyranny and neither do you.

if it weren't for the US, millions of Iraqi civilians would still be alive and their lives would be completely different.

Or they would be dead. Killed by the asshole that the US military took out. And the living's lives would be completely different; oppressed under a tyrannical dictator instead of having the opportunity to choose for themselves.

There would be no western civilization if it weren't for the US; it would have been snuffed out a long time ago. The only chance this world has is if the Arabs embrace this civilization. And they do, it is the dickheads in power who embrace the uncivilized culture of Islam.

And there it is...

Why is it that the same fools who tout American exceptional-ism, are invariably the ones who come out with the inane, asinine, uneducated, bigoted statements. You do nothing to further your point when it is made in the above way.

News flash, America does more to restrict freedom than it does to protect it. And if absolute freedom means you can legally purchase an automatic rifle and blow away 27 people, you are welcome to it.

You really think God blessed America?? you mean to tell me that there aren't millions of people around the world who don't think the same of their own country? Besides the quarter pounder, exporting of war, and rampant obesity, what exactly has America added to world culture.

Now I'm sure you'll summise all I've mentioned simply as; I hate America, so let me beat you to the punch, I don't, there are many things I find great about America and americans, but I do hate willful stupidity, by willful I mean someone who has all the tools to educate themselves but instead rely on their ignorance out of fear their opinions may be wrong when challenged by fact.

fear4freedom

OK MOON so why would you support a president that prints and spends like none other in human history? If you dont like what you see here.....wouldnt you want less of it? We exported Pearl Jam, medical milestones, cars and trains, our culture of melting pot, music, arts, govt. structure, freedom and liberty, human rights, etc. thats all! LOL