so my conclusion is, all the teachers support the chicago teacher union, everyone else thinks they are a waste
:corn:
No. I think that would be a little premature. Dimi and more than a few others spoke very well for teachers.
81... please understand where I come from. I have taken exception to the 'character assassination' for teachers that overt or not, has tended to creep out on this thread.
I'm not necessarily on the side of the union movement. About 10 years ago, my union asked for a 34% raise. My colleagues and I did not know that was about to be demanded. We almost choked. Man, did we look stupid. We were more than a little embarrassed and it was hard to justify (we didn't try). It was tough to be a teacher then. Our profession got killed and we still have that one hang over our heads- these things really take away from what we do.
I'm merely on the side of a profession that seems to get dismissed or kicked too easily in my mind. I'm not full of myself- I understand that in no way should I be compared to a doctor or a lawyer (using two examples). But with that said, I also don't feel I'm 'above' the garbage man or carpenter. Everybody is valuable and provide services to our society. The debate on this thread seems to be centered on exactly how valuable the service is that teachers provide for our kids. The people that think the value is low attempt to make little of the job, while the side that thinks the opposite makes more of the job. Many arguments become centered on the characteristics of a great, average, or poor teacher.
It makes sense to want good people teaching kids. When a thread such as this crops up, it can be damaging. You still may not admit it, but teaching is a tough job. Teachers that do it well are very valuable. At a minimum, some respect is warranted. If you disagree with these statements, I think it is fair to suggest that you hold the teaching in very low regard.
so my conclusion is, all the teachers support the chicago teacher union, everyone else thinks they are a waste
:corn:
No. I think that would be a little premature. Dimi and more than a few others spoke very well for teachers.
81... please understand where I come from. I have taken exception to the 'character assassination' for teachers that overt or not, has tended to creep out on this thread.
I'm not necessarily on the side of the union movement. About 10 years ago, my union asked for a 34% raise. My colleagues and I did not know that was about to be demanded. We almost choked. Man, did we look stupid. We were more than a little embarrassed and it was hard to justify (we didn't try). It was tough to be a teacher then. Our profession got killed and we still have that one hang over our heads- these things really take away from what we do.
I'm merely on the side of a profession that seems to get dismissed or kicked too easily in my mind. I'm not full of myself- I understand that in no way should I be compared to a doctor or a lawyer (using two examples). But with that said, I also don't feel I'm 'above' the garbage man or carpenter. Everybody is valuable and provide services to our society. The debate on this thread seems to be centered on exactly how valuable the service is that teachers provide for our kids. The people that think the value is low attempt to make little of the job, while the side that thinks the opposite makes more of the job. Many arguments become centered on the characteristics of a great, average, or poor teacher.
It makes sense to want good people teaching kids. When a thread such as this crops up, it can be damaging. You still may not admit it, but teaching is a tough job. Teachers that do it well are very valuable. At a minimum, some respect is warranted. If you disagree with these statements, I think it is fair to suggest that you hold the teaching in very low regard.
Couple things - just wanted to add that foreigners who are posting here seem to also side with the teacher's unions. Which is interesting. This isn't their tax money, so maybe that's why. Or maybe their culture is more oriented in that direction - who knows.
Anyway on your points - I don't think anyone is really "making little" of the job at all. I think most here know it's a very important job. And I don't think anyone's saying that good teacher's aren't valuable. They, or I'll speak for myself - I was saying - that the job has perks that often aren't recognized or reported by teachers themselves (particularly in these type of discussions when they are asking for more perks) - such as a reasonably solid salary, nice benefits and the ability to have a nice life-style (summer vacation, etc).
Also, it's rarely discussed that everyone - private sector and public sector is sacrificing giving the economic downturn. Private sector is cutting back. Public sector needs to limit spending too because our debt is growing and becoming an issue. That matters in this debate because it changes the environment that this strike is taking place in. It's not like we have tons of gov't money to throw at these problems nationally. Our country is in a hell of a lot of debt.
It's also important to note that these teachers are public employees. So, a degree of scrutiny on how well they are performing relative to what they are paid is warranted since they are being paid tax money to do the job. That's not to say that there aren't a huge amount of teachers that shouldn't be scrutinized because they are excellent. I'm sure there are. But, it's part of the job - it's a public sector job. Tax payers have the right to scrutinize what they're doing and how well they're doing it.
Anyway - I have a quick question - you talked often on valuing a job. How exactly would you "value" a job?
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
After that title, not even going to read that stupid shit.
i'll paraphrase...people look down at teacher's because they opted out of the capitalist game so there's an assumption that there's something wrong with them. why else would you go on to teach if you could be important - like a businessman or woman? of course none of those people got there without teachers, but its easy to hate them and assume that they suck at their jobs.
I liked the editorial and appreciated what it said.
I've never taught in the public schools but I taught college English for 4 years, mostly ESL. I agree that there's a popular assumption that people who teach grade or secondary school must be incompetents who can't be successful in any other setting. Back when I was still teaching, the popular expression mentioned in the article, "Those that can't do, teach," was directed at me by someone I met at a party. People tend to pay some lip service to the idea that teaching is a noble profession but clearly they wouldn't want to try it.
I've never taught in the public schools but I taught college English for 4 years, mostly ESL. I agree that there's a popular assumption that people who teach grade or secondary school must be incompetents who can't be successful in any other setting. Back when I was still teaching, the popular expression mentioned in the article, "Those that can't do, teach," was directed at me by someone I met at a party. People tend to pay some lip service to the idea that teaching is a noble profession but clearly they wouldn't want to try it.
Whenever someone says "Those who can't do, teach," just ask them what they do for a living. Most of the time, they will reply with some menial job sitting in a cubicle filling in TPS reports.
I've never taught in the public schools but I taught college English for 4 years, mostly ESL. I agree that there's a popular assumption that people who teach grade or secondary school must be incompetents who can't be successful in any other setting. Back when I was still teaching, the popular expression mentioned in the article, "Those that can't do, teach," was directed at me by someone I met at a party. People tend to pay some lip service to the idea that teaching is a noble profession but clearly they wouldn't want to try it.
Whenever someone says "Those who can't do, teach," just ask them what they do for a living. Most of the time, they will reply with some menial job sitting in a cubicle filling in TPS reports.
My comeback at the time was, "Just what are you suggesting I'm unable to do?" He was speechless.
so my conclusion is, all the teachers support the chicago teacher union, everyone else thinks they are a waste
:corn:
No. I think that would be a little premature. Dimi and more than a few others spoke very well for teachers.
81... please understand where I come from. I have taken exception to the 'character assassination' for teachers that overt or not, has tended to creep out on this thread.
I'm not necessarily on the side of the union movement. About 10 years ago, my union asked for a 34% raise. My colleagues and I did not know that was about to be demanded. We almost choked. Man, did we look stupid. We were more than a little embarrassed and it was hard to justify (we didn't try). It was tough to be a teacher then. Our profession got killed and we still have that one hang over our heads- these things really take away from what we do.
I'm merely on the side of a profession that seems to get dismissed or kicked too easily in my mind. I'm not full of myself- I understand that in no way should I be compared to a doctor or a lawyer (using two examples). But with that said, I also don't feel I'm 'above' the garbage man or carpenter. Everybody is valuable and provide services to our society. The debate on this thread seems to be centered on exactly how valuable the service is that teachers provide for our kids. The people that think the value is low attempt to make little of the job, while the side that thinks the opposite makes more of the job. Many arguments become centered on the characteristics of a great, average, or poor teacher.
It makes sense to want good people teaching kids. When a thread such as this crops up, it can be damaging. You still may not admit it, but teaching is a tough job. Teachers that do it well are very valuable. At a minimum, some respect is warranted. If you disagree with these statements, I think it is fair to suggest that you hold the teaching in very low regard.
Couple things - just wanted to add that foreigners who are posting here seem to also side with the teacher's unions. Which is interesting. This isn't their tax money, so maybe that's why. Or maybe their culture is more oriented in that direction - who knows.
Anyway on your points - I don't think anyone is really "making little" of the job at all. I think most here know it's a very important job. And I don't think anyone's saying that good teacher's aren't valuable. They, or I'll speak for myself - I was saying - that the job has perks that often aren't recognized or reported by teachers themselves (particularly in these type of discussions when they are asking for more perks) - such as a reasonably solid salary, nice benefits and the ability to have a nice life-style (summer vacation, etc).
Also, it's rarely discussed that everyone - private sector and public sector is sacrificing giving the economic downturn. Private sector is cutting back. Public sector needs to limit spending too because our debt is growing and becoming an issue. That matters in this debate because it changes the environment that this strike is taking place in. It's not like we have tons of gov't money to throw at these problems nationally. Our country is in a hell of a lot of debt.
It's also important to note that these teachers are public employees. So, a degree of scrutiny on how well they are performing relative to what they are paid is warranted since they are being paid tax money to do the job. That's not to say that there aren't a huge amount of teachers that shouldn't be scrutinized because they are excellent. I'm sure there are. But, it's part of the job - it's a public sector job. Tax payers have the right to scrutinize what they're doing and how well they're doing it.
Anyway - I have a quick question - you talked often on valuing a job. How exactly would you "value" a job?
I'm not sure I can answer your question definitively. I guess for me... it would be a 'feel' for the level of respect a job/profession might get from the community. Throughout this thread (micro-community), whenever I hear comments along the lines of "Poor poor teachers"... or when someone makes excessive attempts to highlight the positive features of the job while downplaying the difficult attributes relevant to the job... well, that would tell me that there isn't a lot of 'genuine' value for the job (from those sources).
Brianlux's last comment (and the ones preceeding it) would reflect value for the job.
* I showed many of my colleagues that '... Likes Nickleback' picket sign. Man is that funny.
I would "value" a job by its potential to qualitatively contribute to a more advanced society. By that standard stay-at-home parenting, teaching, and the health professions would be valued at, or near the top. Conversely, being a corporate shill, punching a 10-key, guessing how best to exploit the market while contributing little back to society would be worth little. This, in my mind, is the reason we have so little respect for many/most teachers. Most refuse to play the game by our current form of capitalism's rules...what you don't want to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, working 70 hour weeks, living in a cubicle, staring vacuously at a computer figuring out whether or not you should take a shit on the 3rd for 15th floor, while you miss your 8 year-olds Little League game - what the fuck is wrong with you teachers?
edit: because those in the private sector are so miserable with what many deem to be worthless work existences they look at how happy a good teacher is because he/she is able to have some small successes in their job that don't result in a pay raise and can't comprehend it. so many assume that a teacher's life must be very easy since the get summers "off" (not always true), and a regulated work week (like we all should have since you know labor unions fought for that).
Have the Democrats official launched a war against teachers and education?
I'm pretty sure if the mayor of Chicago was a Republican (you know, in a parallel universe where cat and dogs live together), there would be an over / under of 15 threads on how the GOP hates teachers.
Have the Democrats official launched a war against teachers and education?
I'm pretty sure if the mayor of Chicago was a Republican (you know, in a parallel universe where cat and dogs live together), there would be an over / under of 15 threads on how the GOP hates teachers.
So ... is Rahm in bed with the Koch brothers?
:corn:
Jason of all the things Obama has done as president the place where he's failed most miserably is in education. Seriously, for profit corporate charter schools is the way forward? Are you fucking kidding me? Horrible.
Have the Democrats official launched a war against teachers and education?
I'm pretty sure if the mayor of Chicago was a Republican (you know, in a parallel universe where cat and dogs live together), there would be an over / under of 15 threads on how the GOP hates teachers.
So ... is Rahm in bed with the Koch brothers?
:corn:
Jason of all the things Obama has done as president the place where he's failed most miserably is in education. Seriously, for profit corporate charter schools is the way forward? Are you fucking kidding me? Horrible.
The way forward is going up to Canada and observing how they rank better then the US in education and at half the spending cost. :geek:
Could we just rid high schools of competitive organized sports? Then use that money to pay teachers and upgrade classrooms? I'm pretty sure we would never see this in Canada: http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id/83 ... l-facility
Could we just rid high schools of competitive organized sports? Then use that money to pay teachers and upgrade classrooms? I'm pretty sure we would never see this in Canada: http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id/83 ... l-facility
That will fix the education problem ... cutting all sports? Just like how they justified the lottery? Shall we dispense with playground equipment as well?
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
Priorities man, priorities.
"I ain't need'n my kid to learn math and stuff, he can play football. This is 'Merica, not Europe. We play football here."
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
The worst injuries I suffered were in intramural sports. In a pickup game of football, I was going for a deep pass and slammed into a parked car that was serving as a boundary while looking backwards for the pass. It took me out at the knees and I slammed face-first into the hood.
:fp:
Still, we both know this is not the solution. It's a nuance we can pick at and there is not an abundance of $60M high school stadiums. I'm guessing under 3 total, probably this is it. It's like picking away at all the luxury schools in Cali that are in trouble because they were finance prior to 2008. It's an issue and it sucks ... but it's not the problem.
Back to the issue at hand ... the Democrat's War on Teachers. Oh, sweet irony!
I'm very much anti-school these days. Even though I do not have children, I have a degree in education and worked in the school system for a time. My mother was also a teacher and recently retired.
The schools are falling farther and farther behind the times. They are too slow and immobile to adapt and are a dinosaur at this point. Around here, the school year seems to get longer and longer, but the breaks, days off, in-service days, early release days, etc. are more and more frequent. Kids rarely have to go more than 2 weeks at a time without getting some kind of break. There is always some lame excuse that lets them out or closes school as well. It just seems like nobody really wants to be there for any length of time.
There are good teachers, there's no doubt about that, but the system is bad and many teachers aren't so good. I wrote a paper in college about why teachers should have the highest paying jobs, but I no longer believe that. In fact, I would argue that they are a bit overpaid when you consider all the benefits they have and the 2-3 months off in the summer. The retirement system is so good that many are able to retire by age 52 or so.
I am also very anti-union and the demands in this strike are laughable. I think unions should be outlawed in general, but especially in the case of teachers.
About the only thing related to the sorry state of education these days that's worse than the schools is the parents.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
About the only thing related to the sorry state of education these days that's worse than the schools is the parents.
Ugh. I wish like hell I didn't agree with so much of your post, especially the quoted part up there, but I do.
I grew up in an era where parents - many, anyway - actually were involved in their children's education, both at home and via the PTA and other activities. My father was a fixture at LAUSD meetings even after my sister and I graduated - he even taught ESL after he retired, because he gave a shit. I don't see that much now; with some exceptions, it seems that many parents use schools as their surrogate - watch over them, feed them, dictate morality, discipline them.
Despite some wonderful, caring teachers whose desire to open doors of knowledge for us was unmistakable (even at my stupidass teenage time of getting high every morning before school) I believe I learned more at home, from my parents, than I ever did at school.
Looking back, I'd say that that education has been much more valuable.
School taught me skills; my parents taught me...well, they taught me. (and good!)
There are good teachers, there's no doubt about that, but the system is bad and many teachers aren't so good. I wrote a paper in college about why teachers should have the highest paying jobs, but I no longer believe that. In fact, I would argue that they are a bit overpaid when you consider all the benefits they have and the 2-3 months off in the summer. The retirement system is so good that many are able to retire by age 52 or so.
About the only thing related to the sorry state of education these days that's worse than the schools is the parents.
How would you go about evaluating teachers?
Tell me the difference between a good teacher and bad teacher without being in their classroom?
Children are a product of their enviornment, WANTING to learn is ultimately their decision. Teachers, have no control over whether students do their homework, whether their parents create a culture of valuing education, or whether they come to school well-rested and well-fed. All of these factors influence student achievement just as much (if not more) than teaching.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
I'm very much anti-school these days. Even though I do not have children, I have a degree in education and worked in the school system for a time. My mother was also a teacher and recently retired.
The schools are falling farther and farther behind the times. They are too slow and immobile to adapt and are a dinosaur at this point. Around here, the school year seems to get longer and longer, but the breaks, days off, in-service days, early release days, etc. are more and more frequent. Kids rarely have to go more than 2 weeks at a time without getting some kind of break. There is always some lame excuse that lets them out or closes school as well. It just seems like nobody really wants to be there for any length of time.
There are good teachers, there's no doubt about that, but the system is bad and many teachers aren't so good. I wrote a paper in college about why teachers should have the highest paying jobs, but I no longer believe that. In fact, I would argue that they are a bit overpaid when you consider all the benefits they have and the 2-3 months off in the summer. The retirement system is so good that many are able to retire by age 52 or so.
I am also very anti-union and the demands in this strike are laughable. I think unions should be outlawed in general, but especially in the case of teachers.
About the only thing related to the sorry state of education these days that's worse than the schools is the parents.
I don't disagree with everything you say here but I have to ask, why is most of it negative input without offering any solutions?
Also, I have to question the accuracy of some of the things you say here:
--Most teachers do not get 2-3 months off-- much of that time is spend developing lesson plans and taking required continuing education courses (which take time and cost money), meeting with other staff and parents, etc.
-- Teachers are not at all well paid compared to other professions requiring a similar level of education (and the continuing education courses needed to maintain a teaching certificate) that teachers are required to have.
--Before becoming a book dealer I spent about half of my 42 working adult years working either as a teacher myself or working in other capacities in the educational system and I've yet to meet a teacher who retired as early as 52 years of age.
--Kids rarely go to school more than two weeks without a break? Where did you work? Hollywood?
And you say you are "anti-school". What does that mean? Shut the schools down?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
The worst injuries I suffered were in intramural sports. In a pickup game of football, I was going for a deep pass and slammed into a parked car that was serving as a boundary while looking backwards for the pass. It took me out at the knees and I slammed face-first into the hood.
:fp:
Still, we both know this is not the solution. It's a nuance we can pick at and there is not an abundance of $60M high school stadiums. I'm guessing under 3 total, probably this is it. It's like picking away at all the luxury schools in Cali that are in trouble because they were finance prior to 2008. It's an issue and it sucks ... but it's not the problem.
Back to the issue at hand ... the Democrat's War on Teachers. Oh, sweet irony!
Of course that's one major ridiculous example, but the amount of money spent on formal school sports is astounding. I live down the street from Calvert Hall ... gotta go teach class but you should check out their sports stadia it's outrageous. What does sport teach kids anyway? To never question authority, to keep quiet about injury and play through it, and to break the rules of the game to gain an advantage. Anyway you are right democrats are really fucking this one up. Republicans can pretend like they wouldn't do the same.
What does sport teach kids anyway? To never question authority, to keep quiet about injury and play through it, and to break the rules of the game to gain an advantage.
Really? I bet some would ask the same question about art....music....etc.
Sports teach kids how to work with others towards a common goal. It teaches kids about working hard and being a dependable teammate. It teaches kids about accepting your current role and doing it to the best of your ability while still striving for more. It teaches kids about exercise and staying fit. It teaches kids about respect. It teaches kids about how to win and how to lose.
Plus, it's fun.
Kids can gain a lot from sport. Now, does it go over the top sometimes and at some high schools, etc? Sure it does. But that is because the adults have made it that way, not the kids.
Of course that's one major ridiculous example, but the amount of money spent on formal school sports is astounding. I live down the street from Calvert Hall ... gotta go teach class but you should check out their sports stadia it's outrageous. What does sport teach kids anyway? To never question authority, to keep quiet about injury and play through it, and to break the rules of the game to gain an advantage. Anyway you are right democrats are really fucking this one up. Republicans can pretend like they wouldn't do the same.
Man, your high school must have had an 'effed up athletic program. :shock: :(
Here is what I gleamed from playing sports:
* Loyalty
* Team work
* Hard work, persistence, and the delayed payoff you reap from it
* Integrity (never ever, ever did a coach ever suggest cheating ... football coach would punish us with bear crawls and crab walks for breaking the rules. Golf, as you may well know, relies exceptionally on rules and integrity. In swimming ... well, swimming is punishment itself ... not sure you can make it worse :think: )
* The knowledge that 100% commitment can still lead to failure in the end ... and how to learn from it
* Most important of all ... having fun playing sports
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Of course that's one major ridiculous example, but the amount of money spent on formal school sports is astounding. I live down the street from Calvert Hall ... gotta go teach class but you should check out their sports stadia it's outrageous. What does sport teach kids anyway? To never question authority, to keep quiet about injury and play through it, and to break the rules of the game to gain an advantage. Anyway you are right democrats are really fucking this one up. Republicans can pretend like they wouldn't do the same.
Man, your high school must have had an 'effed up athletic program. :shock: :(
Here is what I gleamed from playing sports:
* Loyalty
* Team work
* Hard work, persistence, and the delayed payoff you reap from it
* Integrity (never ever, ever did a coach ever suggest cheating ... football coach would punish us with bear crawls and crab walks for breaking the rules. Golf, as you may well know, relies exceptionally on rules and integrity. In swimming ... well, swimming is punishment itself ... not sure you can make it worse :think: )
* The knowledge that 100% commitment can still lead to failure in the end ... and how to learn from it
* Most important of all ... having fun playing sports
I have to be honest here- the only thing I learned in school from sports was how to play "Sunshine of Your Love" on a tennis racket.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I have to be honest here- the only thing I learned in school from sports was how to play "Sunshine of Your Love" on a tennis racket.
Yeah, but you own a bookstore, not exactly the target market!!!
All kidding aside...really? That is all you learned? Were you 100% invested in your sport or why did you do it?
Actually, Cincy, I opted to go easy on my response because I was trying to avoid sounding confrontational. To be even more honest, my first reaction was to remember that what I learned most in school sports was how the strongest and most aggressive were most capable of inflicting pain and injury on the weakest. This works fine and is necessary if your a wild animal but as humans we are capable of contributing to others and the world around us with our minds and creativity as well. That's why I'm a bookseller and not into a more predatory line of work.
And I actually do like baseball- but that's more a form of physical poetry and a game of strategy than it is a sport.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
No. I think that would be a little premature. Dimi and more than a few others spoke very well for teachers.
81... please understand where I come from. I have taken exception to the 'character assassination' for teachers that overt or not, has tended to creep out on this thread.
I'm not necessarily on the side of the union movement. About 10 years ago, my union asked for a 34% raise. My colleagues and I did not know that was about to be demanded. We almost choked. Man, did we look stupid. We were more than a little embarrassed and it was hard to justify (we didn't try). It was tough to be a teacher then. Our profession got killed and we still have that one hang over our heads- these things really take away from what we do.
I'm merely on the side of a profession that seems to get dismissed or kicked too easily in my mind. I'm not full of myself- I understand that in no way should I be compared to a doctor or a lawyer (using two examples). But with that said, I also don't feel I'm 'above' the garbage man or carpenter. Everybody is valuable and provide services to our society. The debate on this thread seems to be centered on exactly how valuable the service is that teachers provide for our kids. The people that think the value is low attempt to make little of the job, while the side that thinks the opposite makes more of the job. Many arguments become centered on the characteristics of a great, average, or poor teacher.
It makes sense to want good people teaching kids. When a thread such as this crops up, it can be damaging. You still may not admit it, but teaching is a tough job. Teachers that do it well are very valuable. At a minimum, some respect is warranted. If you disagree with these statements, I think it is fair to suggest that you hold the teaching in very low regard.
Couple things - just wanted to add that foreigners who are posting here seem to also side with the teacher's unions. Which is interesting. This isn't their tax money, so maybe that's why. Or maybe their culture is more oriented in that direction - who knows.
Anyway on your points - I don't think anyone is really "making little" of the job at all. I think most here know it's a very important job. And I don't think anyone's saying that good teacher's aren't valuable. They, or I'll speak for myself - I was saying - that the job has perks that often aren't recognized or reported by teachers themselves (particularly in these type of discussions when they are asking for more perks) - such as a reasonably solid salary, nice benefits and the ability to have a nice life-style (summer vacation, etc).
Also, it's rarely discussed that everyone - private sector and public sector is sacrificing giving the economic downturn. Private sector is cutting back. Public sector needs to limit spending too because our debt is growing and becoming an issue. That matters in this debate because it changes the environment that this strike is taking place in. It's not like we have tons of gov't money to throw at these problems nationally. Our country is in a hell of a lot of debt.
It's also important to note that these teachers are public employees. So, a degree of scrutiny on how well they are performing relative to what they are paid is warranted since they are being paid tax money to do the job. That's not to say that there aren't a huge amount of teachers that shouldn't be scrutinized because they are excellent. I'm sure there are. But, it's part of the job - it's a public sector job. Tax payers have the right to scrutinize what they're doing and how well they're doing it.
Anyway - I have a quick question - you talked often on valuing a job. How exactly would you "value" a job?
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I've never taught in the public schools but I taught college English for 4 years, mostly ESL. I agree that there's a popular assumption that people who teach grade or secondary school must be incompetents who can't be successful in any other setting. Back when I was still teaching, the popular expression mentioned in the article, "Those that can't do, teach," was directed at me by someone I met at a party. People tend to pay some lip service to the idea that teaching is a noble profession but clearly they wouldn't want to try it.
Whenever someone says "Those who can't do, teach," just ask them what they do for a living. Most of the time, they will reply with some menial job sitting in a cubicle filling in TPS reports.
My comeback at the time was, "Just what are you suggesting I'm unable to do?" He was speechless.
Yes!!
Thank you, teachers. :thumbup:
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I'm not sure I can answer your question definitively. I guess for me... it would be a 'feel' for the level of respect a job/profession might get from the community. Throughout this thread (micro-community), whenever I hear comments along the lines of "Poor poor teachers"... or when someone makes excessive attempts to highlight the positive features of the job while downplaying the difficult attributes relevant to the job... well, that would tell me that there isn't a lot of 'genuine' value for the job (from those sources).
Brianlux's last comment (and the ones preceeding it) would reflect value for the job.
* I showed many of my colleagues that '... Likes Nickleback' picket sign. Man is that funny.
edit: because those in the private sector are so miserable with what many deem to be worthless work existences they look at how happy a good teacher is because he/she is able to have some small successes in their job that don't result in a pay raise and can't comprehend it. so many assume that a teacher's life must be very easy since the get summers "off" (not always true), and a regulated work week (like we all should have since you know labor unions fought for that).
I'm pretty sure if the mayor of Chicago was a Republican (you know, in a parallel universe where cat and dogs live together), there would be an over / under of 15 threads on how the GOP hates teachers.
So ... is Rahm in bed with the Koch brothers?
:corn:
Priorities man, priorities.
"I ain't need'n my kid to learn math and stuff, he can play football. This is 'Merica, not Europe. We play football here."
:fp:
Still, we both know this is not the solution. It's a nuance we can pick at and there is not an abundance of $60M high school stadiums. I'm guessing under 3 total, probably this is it. It's like picking away at all the luxury schools in Cali that are in trouble because they were finance prior to 2008. It's an issue and it sucks ... but it's not the problem.
Back to the issue at hand ... the Democrat's War on Teachers. Oh, sweet irony!
The schools are falling farther and farther behind the times. They are too slow and immobile to adapt and are a dinosaur at this point. Around here, the school year seems to get longer and longer, but the breaks, days off, in-service days, early release days, etc. are more and more frequent. Kids rarely have to go more than 2 weeks at a time without getting some kind of break. There is always some lame excuse that lets them out or closes school as well. It just seems like nobody really wants to be there for any length of time.
There are good teachers, there's no doubt about that, but the system is bad and many teachers aren't so good. I wrote a paper in college about why teachers should have the highest paying jobs, but I no longer believe that. In fact, I would argue that they are a bit overpaid when you consider all the benefits they have and the 2-3 months off in the summer. The retirement system is so good that many are able to retire by age 52 or so.
I am also very anti-union and the demands in this strike are laughable. I think unions should be outlawed in general, but especially in the case of teachers.
About the only thing related to the sorry state of education these days that's worse than the schools is the parents.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I grew up in an era where parents - many, anyway - actually were involved in their children's education, both at home and via the PTA and other activities. My father was a fixture at LAUSD meetings even after my sister and I graduated - he even taught ESL after he retired, because he gave a shit. I don't see that much now; with some exceptions, it seems that many parents use schools as their surrogate - watch over them, feed them, dictate morality, discipline them.
Despite some wonderful, caring teachers whose desire to open doors of knowledge for us was unmistakable (even at my stupidass teenage time of getting high every morning before school) I believe I learned more at home, from my parents, than I ever did at school.
Looking back, I'd say that that education has been much more valuable.
School taught me skills; my parents taught me...well, they taught me. (and good!)
Tell me the difference between a good teacher and bad teacher without being in their classroom?
Children are a product of their enviornment, WANTING to learn is ultimately their decision. Teachers, have no control over whether students do their homework, whether their parents create a culture of valuing education, or whether they come to school well-rested and well-fed. All of these factors influence student achievement just as much (if not more) than teaching.
I don't disagree with everything you say here but I have to ask, why is most of it negative input without offering any solutions?
Also, I have to question the accuracy of some of the things you say here:
--Most teachers do not get 2-3 months off-- much of that time is spend developing lesson plans and taking required continuing education courses (which take time and cost money), meeting with other staff and parents, etc.
-- Teachers are not at all well paid compared to other professions requiring a similar level of education (and the continuing education courses needed to maintain a teaching certificate) that teachers are required to have.
--Before becoming a book dealer I spent about half of my 42 working adult years working either as a teacher myself or working in other capacities in the educational system and I've yet to meet a teacher who retired as early as 52 years of age.
--Kids rarely go to school more than two weeks without a break? Where did you work? Hollywood?
And you say you are "anti-school". What does that mean? Shut the schools down?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Really? I bet some would ask the same question about art....music....etc.
Sports teach kids how to work with others towards a common goal. It teaches kids about working hard and being a dependable teammate. It teaches kids about accepting your current role and doing it to the best of your ability while still striving for more. It teaches kids about exercise and staying fit. It teaches kids about respect. It teaches kids about how to win and how to lose.
Plus, it's fun.
Kids can gain a lot from sport. Now, does it go over the top sometimes and at some high schools, etc? Sure it does. But that is because the adults have made it that way, not the kids.
Here is what I gleamed from playing sports:
* Loyalty
* Team work
* Hard work, persistence, and the delayed payoff you reap from it
* Integrity (never ever, ever did a coach ever suggest cheating ... football coach would punish us with bear crawls and crab walks for breaking the rules. Golf, as you may well know, relies exceptionally on rules and integrity. In swimming ... well, swimming is punishment itself ... not sure you can make it worse :think: )
* The knowledge that 100% commitment can still lead to failure in the end ... and how to learn from it
* Most important of all ... having fun playing sports
I have to be honest here- the only thing I learned in school from sports was how to play "Sunshine of Your Love" on a tennis racket.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Yeah, but you own a bookstore, not exactly the target market!!!
All kidding aside...really? That is all you learned? Were you 100% invested in your sport or why did you do it?
Actually, Cincy, I opted to go easy on my response because I was trying to avoid sounding confrontational. To be even more honest, my first reaction was to remember that what I learned most in school sports was how the strongest and most aggressive were most capable of inflicting pain and injury on the weakest. This works fine and is necessary if your a wild animal but as humans we are capable of contributing to others and the world around us with our minds and creativity as well. That's why I'm a bookseller and not into a more predatory line of work.
And I actually do like baseball- but that's more a form of physical poetry and a game of strategy than it is a sport.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"