The worldwide problem speaks for itself as far as the countries who have experienced
mass killing in the last 25 years.
...................
1 in 5 people have mental issues
The list you posted is quite selective. A more complete one will show that whilst a number of countries worldwide have suffered such tragedies, the US is a clear front runner with 55+ such shootings ('worthy' of mega media attention) with the runner up Germany with 4 and other countries 'just' one or two. It is a regular occurrence in the US and exceptional occurrences in other countries. Not so much a worldwide problem and most of those non-US countries who have been shocked with such killings have actually done something about it (yep.... to do with stricter gun controls) and not just caved in to pressures from certain groups or just shrugging their shoulders saying that nothing can be done, guns are a way of life, a right, guns don't kill people, etc. In the US, there is outrage then nothing... until the next time. The US is not that unique when it comes to the violence, nutters, poverty; etc (I lived in a number of countries and can testify to that) - apart maybe from their apathy and lack of wanting to redress the situation, starting with looking at some simple solutions.
In the UK, stats also show that many people suffer from mental illness - 1 in 4 at any given time in a year. One needs to remember that what is meant by mental illness is not just the 'big ones' like schizophrenia or such but ANY mental fatigue, mild bouts of depression/the blues (which I would have thought most here on the forum would have felt) to naturally the serious illnesses.
Statistics are fine, but they need to be complete.
Looking at Byrnzie's post: why would anyone NEED to (responsibly?) own such an arsenal? Since it would seem in the US one 'needs' to own a gun in order to protect him/herself/family (and people here keep on saying it's the main purpose of gun ownership) - is one gun not enough? OK - so two - one for each hand then... And americans are still shocked when there is another mass shooting show on TV?
The worldwide problem speaks for itself as far as the countries who have experienced
mass killing in the last 25 years.
...................
1 in 5 people have mental issues
The list you posted is quite selective. A more complete one will show that whilst a number of countries worldwide have suffered such tragedies, the US is a clear front runner with 55+ such shootings ('worthy' of mega media attention) with the runner up Germany with 4 and other countries 'just' one or two. It is a regular occurrence in the US and exceptional occurrences in other countries. Not so much a worldwide problem and most of those non-US countries who have been shocked with such killings have actually done something about it (yep.... to do with stricter gun controls) and not just caved in to pressures from certain groups or just shrugging their shoulders saying that nothing can be done, guns are a way of life, a right, guns don't kill people, etc. In the US, there is outrage then nothing... until the next time. The US is not that unique when it comes to the violence, nutters, poverty; etc (I lived in a number of countries and can testify to that) - apart maybe from their apathy and lack of wanting to redress the situation, starting with looking at some simple solutions.
In the UK, stats also show that many people suffer from mental illness - 1 in 4 at any given time in a year. One needs to remember that what is meant by mental illness is not just the 'big ones' like schizophrenia or such but ANY mental fatigue, mild bouts of depression/the blues (which I would have thought most here on the forum would have felt) to naturally the serious illnesses.
Statistics are fine, but they need to be complete.
Looking at Byrnzie's post: why would anyone NEED to (responsibly?) own such an arsenal? Since it would seem in the US one 'needs' to own a gun in order to protect him/herself/family (and people here keep on saying it's the main purpose of gun ownership) - is one gun not enough? OK - so two - one for each hand then... And americans are still shocked when there is another mass shooting show on TV?
of course the US is the front runner but the problem .... violence .... is a human problem
Statistics can be used to show one's point and in debate counter statistics can be used.
I know you got some but I didn't see any
Those I gave were the most lives lost in the last 25 years in mass shootings.
Reveals it is a worldwide problem making my point.
Yes of course the mental illness statistic covers all illness as the article posted
why would you assume otherwise? Did you think anyone thought 1 in 5 had schizophrenia?
that's a stretch.
One in five Americans experienced some sort of mental illness in 2010, according to a new report from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. About 5 percent of Americans have suffered from such severe mental illness that it interfered with day-to-day school, work or family.
I don't think people are shrugging their shoulders, they are arming themselves,
for very good reasons, even as many as is pictured in some of the posts here.
The best reason is it is their right.
The most common reason is protection and most do not have arsenals.
I have no problem with anyone who is a responsible
gun owner, purchasing legally, owning however many guns they choose.
I'm with Mr. Goomba ... if the government including our sometimes overly zealous
police force have them then citizens can too.
Never know down the line we might need them...
forever is a long time.
[
So how do you or how does one have responsible gun ownership in not killing but to only protect? Do you become responsible somehow when your life is in jeopardy you only shoot to lame a person but NOT killing them. If you have to use a gun you are now in the mentality that you may have to kill. Just showing a gun isn't going to protect you, one better be PREPARED to use it to kill once it has been pulled in order to protect yourself.
I hope that made sense I'm rushing off to work. I do plan on getting my rifle for target shooting in all 3 positions in the near future.
Peace
I really don't know why I would have to explain exactly what is meant by protection.
Why the statement guns are owned to protect not kill needs clarification.
It seems quite clear to me and yes if you have a gun know how to use it, be prepared to use it,
this is apart of responsible gun ownership but that is also very clear.
Yes of course the mental illness statistic covers all illness as the article posted
why would you assume otherwise? Did you think anyone thought 1 in 5 had schizophrenia?
that's a stretch.
I don't think people are shrugging their shoulders, they are arming themselves,
Nutters :? ... how delicate :fp:
Don't be patronizing - you know very well that I didn't think 1 in 5 had schizophrenia. I'm not assuming anything - I'm not the one going on and on about schizophrenia and giving stats on general mental illness in the same breath, am I? :roll:
I think you know very well what I meant by 'shrugging their shoulders' when it comes to actively seeking to make things better. Arming one's self does not help redress the cause (or one of the causes) of these shootings. What a way to see things.... :roll:
And nutters :fp: (I know you like him)... Of course you want to portray me as being insensitive to the mentally ill as I say 'nutters'. It's just another way of describing fucked up people that can go around brandishing guns shooting people or any other crazy thing. Don't tell me that those committing these crimes are not fucked up? It's a small percentage that are actually insane. Most are just fucked up, ie nutters.
I'm done responding to you and I would rather you be done with me - so let's leave it at that please.
First off gun ownership in canada is high but there is a difference. many of them are in the west and also north for hunting. we don't drive with guns in the car and we don't feel the need to walk around packing heat.
also, can you please tell me what these unique problems that the US has?
Perhaps you can read my previous posts in this and related threads as to the unique magnitude of problems within the US. Problems that have lead to the gun violence issue.
Problems that have caused a devaluation in life itself.
I am glad you have no need to have a gun with you, I too do not own a gun... yet.
It is the yet I hope you never have to consider. But because you think you have no need
this should not effect my need that I have. I will not impose my choice on another.
Not when owned responsibly.
There are now countless stories of foiled criminals because of such weapons being at the right place at the right time,
preventing rape, robbery, home invasion, car jacking, assault or murder.
Many of our guns as well are for hunting, sport, collectibles, hobby,
not only protection from the violent crimes listed.
Arsenals that are responsibly and legally owned would fall into one of these categories.
Thirty years down the line they might fall into the category of protection.
Yes of course the mental illness statistic covers all illness as the article posted
why would you assume otherwise? Did you think anyone thought 1 in 5 had schizophrenia?
that's a stretch.
I don't think people are shrugging their shoulders, they are arming themselves,
Nutters :? ... how delicate :fp:
Don't be patronizing - you know very well that I didn't think 1 in 5 had schizophrenia. I'm not the one going on and on about schizophrenia and giving stats on general mental illness in the same breath, am I? :roll:
I think you know very well what I meant by 'shrugging their shoulders' when it comes to actively seeking to make things better. Arming one's self does not help redress the cause (or one of the causes) of these shootings. What a way to see things.... :roll:
And nutters :fp: (I know you like him)... Of course you want to portray me as being insensitive to the mentally ill as I say 'nutters'. It's just another way of describing fucked up people that can go around brandishing guns shooting people or any other crazy thing. Don't tell me that those committing these crimes are not fucked up? It's a small percentage that are actually insane. Most are just fucked up, ie nutters.
I'm done responding to you and I would rather you be done with me - so let's leave it at that please.
Ha ... patronizing? how 'bout that eye roll
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
Not sure what you did for entertainment before you got your gun, but where I come from we had barbecues, a shit load of beer and drugs, and some hard-assed music. No guns were necessary.
I remember the days we didn't lock our doors.
Slept with the windows open in the summer.
Walked the street in the wee hours of the morning.
Life has been devalued, hope gone for many.
Pick up a gun make a victim,
get what you want, take a life so what.
Life sucks, theirs must too and if it doesn't and mine does
I'll hate you for that. I'll take what you have and abuse you before I go.
And then I'll go home and have a lemonade and BBQ and tell my friends
the fun I had at the rich guys house tormenting the old guy in front of his wife
and I'll show them the wedding rings I got.
Yes...
times are gone and what is replaced is ugly but we can take our lives back by fighting back.
Just as my neighbor did and thank God because he is a really nice old coot
and one that is not gonna take it anymore.
Like i said Pandora everybody just pack and everytime you have beef with anyone anywhere just pull out the gun and shoot away , at this point we are heading backwards to the days of the old west ...
I remember the days we didn't lock our doors.
Slept with the windows open in the summer.
Walked the street in the wee hours of the morning.
Life has been devalued, hope gone for many.
Pick up a gun make a victim,
get what you want, take a life so what.
Life sucks, theirs must too and if it doesn't and mine does
I'll hate you for that. I'll take what you have and abuse you before I go.
And then I'll go home and have a lemonade and BBQ and tell my friends
the fun I had at the rich guys house tormenting the old guy in front of his wife
and I'll show them the wedding rings I got.
Yes...
times are gone and what is replaced is ugly but we can take our lives back by fighting back.
Just as my neighbor did and thank God because he is a really nice old coot
and one that is not gonna take it anymore.
What's changed since those days? One thing is a shitton of guns being added to society.
Also, that list doesn't include the biggest ones from the last 25 years. The Luby's massacre among others are missing.
This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
When you say you think mental illness is the cause of these shootings, are you referring specifically to the Giffords and Aurora shootings, or shootings in general?
In the Giffords shooting it certainly was one component, and it may be in this case as well, but there are many other factors, including access to the instrument of the killings - the guns themselves. There are countless other shootings where the perpetrator was not mentally ill, so how do we account for those?
I agree with you that this is a human issue, but not necessarily a mentally ill human issue. Those that are not mentally ill can and do commit these crimes.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
1. Mental illness is not the cause of all of these shootings.
2. Why can't we address mental illness and gun control?
3. Gun control does not mean banning guns. Nobody is talking about banning guns.
4. We don't have laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Therefore new laws are needed.
5. Treatment was readily available for many mass shooters. Some were seeking help at the time they killed.
This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
Like i said Pandora everybody just pack and everytime you have beef with anyone anywhere just pull out the gun and shoot away , at this point we are heading backwards to the days of the old west ...
No ... just protect yourself from the bad guys you got a beef with that?
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
1. Mental illness is not the cause of all of these shootings.
2. Why can't we address mental illness and gun control?
3. Gun control does not mean banning guns. Nobody is talking about banning guns.
4. We don't have laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Therefore new laws are needed.
5. Treatment was readily available for many mass shooters. Some were seeking help at the time they killed.
Mental illness has been linked to the mass shootings.
These killings are not being carried out by law abiding responsible legal gun owners
in their right minds.
There are laws, and they are not being enforced. This is the logical place to start.
Along with real help, active help, affordable help for families who know
there loved ones are ill.
And yes of course there are people talking about banning guns, turn the TV on lately?
and if they had it their way there would be no guns. Some are just more honest about it than others.
Your post disregarding poor Grandma and addressing the fact that we would need
so many stories to counteract the use of guns.
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
When you say you think mental illness is the cause of these shootings, are you referring specifically to the Giffords and Aurora shootings, or shootings in general?
In the Giffords shooting it certainly was one component, and it may be in this case as well, but there are many other factors, including access to the instrument of the killings - the guns themselves. There are countless other shootings where the perpetrator was not mentally ill, so how do we account for those?
I agree with you that this is a human issue, but not necessarily a mentally ill human issue. Those that are not mentally ill can and do commit these crimes.
The devaluation of life itself, as I have posted many times , is the cause for gun violence.
If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.
I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.
Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.
Wouldn't the smart move be to buy a taser instead of a gun?
I mean, shooting someone doesn't always render them helpless.
Looks like these tasers disable people immediately and render them helpless.
The idea that it would have been better if armed civilians were defensively trying to shoot a target in a dark, smoke filled theater is rather comical in a dark humorous way.
The devaluation of life itself, as I have posted many times , is the cause for gun violence.
If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.
I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.
Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.
Thanks for clarifying that you are referring specifically to this case and not shootings in general. We'll find out more as his evals are completed and more info about his treatment history is released. I posted some of my own thoughts in the other thread, but the only expert opinions that matter are from the people who have evaluated or treated him directly.
It's clear you feel strongly about the need for mental health treatment and empathy for those struggling with mental illness, as do I. My concern is again the stigma that results when there are very generalizing kinds of comments and judgments being made that because someone commits a crime like this, they must be mentally ill.
Below are links to 2 articles on the topic. The second article is peer reviewed, but a little lengthy; this is the conclusion:
"Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.
Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.
Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not. Those with substance disorders are major contributors to community violence, perhaps accounting for as much as a third of self-reported violent acts, and seven out of every 10 crimes of violence among mentally disordered offenders.
Finally, too much past research has focussed on the person with the mental illness, rather than the nature of the social interchange that led up to the violence. Consequently, we know much less than we should about the nature of these relationships and the contextual determinants of violence, and much less than we should about opportunities for primary prevention (30). Nevertheless, current literature supports early identification and treatment of substance abuse problems, and greater attention to the diagnosis and management of concurrent substance abuse disorders among seriously mentally ill as potential violence prevention strategies (25)."
I remember the days we didn't lock our doors.
Slept with the windows open in the summer.
Walked the street in the wee hours of the morning.
Life has been devalued, hope gone for many.
Pick up a gun make a victim,
get what you want, take a life so what.
Life sucks, theirs must too and if it doesn't and mine does
I'll hate you for that. I'll take what you have and abuse you before I go.
And then I'll go home and have a lemonade and BBQ and tell my friends
the fun I had at the rich guys house tormenting the old guy in front of his wife
and I'll show them the wedding rings I got.
Yes...
times are gone and what is replaced is ugly but we can take our lives back by fighting back.
Just as my neighbor did and thank God because he is a really nice old coot
and one that is not gonna take it anymore.
that's the point. laws change to protect the citizens and should reflect the current state of society. too much gun violence should not equal more guns for the "responsible".
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead
Kevin Cleeves, 36, was caught in Ohio after fleeing the scene of a shooting where he allegedly abducted his 4-year-old daughter
Reuters
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 28 July 2012
Police in Ohio on Saturday arrested a Pennsylvania man suspected of fatally shooting three people near his hometown and then fleeing with his 4-year-old daughter, officials said.
Police rescued the girl unharmed when they arrested the suspect, Kevin Cleeves, 36, of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, at about 5am ET, said Detective Sgt. Jordan Yacovone of the Austintown, Ohio, police department.
"The 4-year-old was with him. She's fine," he said.
Cleeves was arrested in the parking lot of a shopping plaza, he said, in Austintown, just west of Youngstown, Ohio. Officers spotted the car because of an Amber Alert, issued in cases of alleged child abductions.
The shootings occurred about 9pm ET on Friday in the driveway of a home in Quincy Township, Pennsylvania, southwest of Harrisburg, according to Pennsylvania state trooper Adam Reed.
The three victims, all adults, were shot dead in a car, he said. Quincy Township is about 250 miles from Austintown. The identities of the dead were not immediately released.
Reed said he did not know the motive for the shootings, but local media reports said Cleeves had confronted his wife about custody arrangements for their daughter Leia.
"He abducted his 4-year-old daughter from the scene of the shooting," Reed said.
Cleeves was jailed in Ohio awaiting extradition to Pennsylvania, authorities said.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,461
What a jaded world. I remember when "vicious" meant you "want to hit me with a flower". Now... it's a row of guns that stretches to the moon and back or around the earth ten time or what ever the analogy is.
Thump.
There.
I hit'cha with a flower.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead
in the minds of the Constitution Crowd, all they are thinking when they see something like this is "too bad the four weren't armed with assault weapons, had they been responsible gun owners (hey, what gun-toter isn't responsible?), they all would have shot him directly through the heart with zero danger to anyone else around and all of this could have been avoided, and they all would have flown the girl back to the safety of the Fortress of Solitude".
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead
Kevin Cleeves, 36, was caught in Ohio after fleeing the scene of a shooting where he allegedly abducted his 4-year-old daughter
Reuters
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 28 July 2012
Police in Ohio on Saturday arrested a Pennsylvania man suspected of fatally shooting three people near his hometown and then fleeing with his 4-year-old daughter, officials said.
Police rescued the girl unharmed when they arrested the suspect, Kevin Cleeves, 36, of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, at about 5am ET, said Detective Sgt. Jordan Yacovone of the Austintown, Ohio, police department.
"The 4-year-old was with him. She's fine," he said.
Cleeves was arrested in the parking lot of a shopping plaza, he said, in Austintown, just west of Youngstown, Ohio. Officers spotted the car because of an Amber Alert, issued in cases of alleged child abductions.
The shootings occurred about 9pm ET on Friday in the driveway of a home in Quincy Township, Pennsylvania, southwest of Harrisburg, according to Pennsylvania state trooper Adam Reed.
The three victims, all adults, were shot dead in a car, he said. Quincy Township is about 250 miles from Austintown. The identities of the dead were not immediately released.
Reed said he did not know the motive for the shootings, but local media reports said Cleeves had confronted his wife about custody arrangements for their daughter Leia.
"He abducted his 4-year-old daughter from the scene of the shooting," Reed said.
Cleeves was jailed in Ohio awaiting extradition to Pennsylvania, authorities said.
Wouldn't the smart move be to buy a taser instead of a gun?
I mean, shooting someone doesn't always render them helpless.
Looks like these tasers disable people immediately and render them helpless.
The idea that it would have been better if armed civilians were defensively trying to shoot a target in a dark, smoke filled theater is rather comical in a dark humorous way.
I think when one is looking at violent crimes, like home invasion, rape, abduction, etc
a gun is very much needed when ones life is at stake.
But if a person is adverse to guns or afraid of them,
tasers are a good alternative, just know they don't stop someone
geeked up on certain drugs and it would not necessarily make the bad guy helpless.
Officers often have to taser many times and it will still take 2 or more officers to control
the person.
The devaluation of life itself, as I have posted many times , is the cause for gun violence.
If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.
I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.
Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.
Thanks for clarifying that you are referring specifically to this case and not shootings in general. We'll find out more as his evals are completed and more info about his treatment history is released. I posted some of my own thoughts in the other thread, but the only expert opinions that matter are from the people who have evaluated or treated him directly.
It's clear you feel strongly about the need for mental health treatment and empathy for those struggling with mental illness, as do I. My concern is again the stigma that results when there are very generalizing kinds of comments and judgments being made that because someone commits a crime like this, they must be mentally ill.
Below are links to 2 articles on the topic. The second article is peer reviewed, but a little lengthy; this is the conclusion:
"Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.
Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.
Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not. Those with substance disorders are major contributors to community violence, perhaps accounting for as much as a third of self-reported violent acts, and seven out of every 10 crimes of violence among mentally disordered offenders.
Finally, too much past research has focussed on the person with the mental illness, rather than the nature of the social interchange that led up to the violence. Consequently, we know much less than we should about the nature of these relationships and the contextual determinants of violence, and much less than we should about opportunities for primary prevention (30). Nevertheless, current literature supports early identification and treatment of substance abuse problems, and greater attention to the diagnosis and management of concurrent substance abuse disorders among seriously mentally ill as potential violence prevention strategies (25)."
ugh Freaking Dillon"
I'll take "answers that are obvious to the rest of us" for $1000, Alex.
*pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew*
"and that's our final Daily Double".
Love me some Jeopardy ...
but is this a bit off topic, personal and insulting?
like the game show the obvious answer often not the correct one
that show brings out the brains though, awesome! I need to watch that again
sometime soon... thanks!
Comments
The list you posted is quite selective. A more complete one will show that whilst a number of countries worldwide have suffered such tragedies, the US is a clear front runner with 55+ such shootings ('worthy' of mega media attention) with the runner up Germany with 4 and other countries 'just' one or two. It is a regular occurrence in the US and exceptional occurrences in other countries. Not so much a worldwide problem and most of those non-US countries who have been shocked with such killings have actually done something about it (yep.... to do with stricter gun controls) and not just caved in to pressures from certain groups or just shrugging their shoulders saying that nothing can be done, guns are a way of life, a right, guns don't kill people, etc. In the US, there is outrage then nothing... until the next time. The US is not that unique when it comes to the violence, nutters, poverty; etc (I lived in a number of countries and can testify to that) - apart maybe from their apathy and lack of wanting to redress the situation, starting with looking at some simple solutions.
In the UK, stats also show that many people suffer from mental illness - 1 in 4 at any given time in a year. One needs to remember that what is meant by mental illness is not just the 'big ones' like schizophrenia or such but ANY mental fatigue, mild bouts of depression/the blues (which I would have thought most here on the forum would have felt) to naturally the serious illnesses.
Statistics are fine, but they need to be complete.
Looking at Byrnzie's post: why would anyone NEED to (responsibly?) own such an arsenal? Since it would seem in the US one 'needs' to own a gun in order to protect him/herself/family (and people here keep on saying it's the main purpose of gun ownership) - is one gun not enough? OK - so two - one for each hand then... And americans are still shocked when there is another mass shooting show on TV?
is a human problem
Statistics can be used to show one's point and in debate counter statistics can be used.
I know you got some but I didn't see any
Those I gave were the most lives lost in the last 25 years in mass shootings.
Reveals it is a worldwide problem making my point.
Yes of course the mental illness statistic covers all illness as the article posted
why would you assume otherwise? Did you think anyone thought 1 in 5 had schizophrenia?
that's a stretch.
my link previously posted ...
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012 ... l-illness/
from the article
One in five Americans experienced some sort of mental illness in 2010, according to a new report from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. About 5 percent of Americans have suffered from such severe mental illness that it interfered with day-to-day school, work or family.
I don't think people are shrugging their shoulders, they are arming themselves,
for very good reasons, even as many as is pictured in some of the posts here.
The best reason is it is their right.
The most common reason is protection and most do not have arsenals.
I have no problem with anyone who is a responsible
gun owner, purchasing legally, owning however many guns they choose.
I'm with Mr. Goomba ... if the government including our sometimes overly zealous
police force have them then citizens can too.
Never know down the line we might need them...
forever is a long time.
Nutters :? ... how delicate :fp:
Why the statement guns are owned to protect not kill needs clarification.
It seems quite clear to me and yes if you have a gun know how to use it, be prepared to use it,
this is apart of responsible gun ownership but that is also very clear.
Don't be patronizing - you know very well that I didn't think 1 in 5 had schizophrenia. I'm not assuming anything - I'm not the one going on and on about schizophrenia and giving stats on general mental illness in the same breath, am I? :roll:
I think you know very well what I meant by 'shrugging their shoulders' when it comes to actively seeking to make things better. Arming one's self does not help redress the cause (or one of the causes) of these shootings. What a way to see things.... :roll:
And nutters :fp: (I know you like him)... Of course you want to portray me as being insensitive to the mentally ill as I say 'nutters'. It's just another way of describing fucked up people that can go around brandishing guns shooting people or any other crazy thing. Don't tell me that those committing these crimes are not fucked up? It's a small percentage that are actually insane. Most are just fucked up, ie nutters.
I'm done responding to you and I would rather you be done with me - so let's leave it at that please.
magnitude of problems within the US. Problems that have lead to the gun violence issue.
Problems that have caused a devaluation in life itself.
I am glad you have no need to have a gun with you, I too do not own a gun... yet.
It is the yet I hope you never have to consider. But because you think you have no need
this should not effect my need that I have. I will not impose my choice on another.
Not when owned responsibly.
There are now countless stories of foiled criminals because of such weapons
being at the right place at the right time,
preventing rape, robbery, home invasion, car jacking, assault or murder.
Many of our guns as well are for hunting, sport, collectibles, hobby,
not only protection from the violent crimes listed.
Arsenals that are responsibly and legally owned would fall into one of these categories.
Thirty years down the line they might fall into the category of protection.
Ha ... patronizing? how 'bout that eye roll
Mental illness is the cause of these shootings in my opinion.
I go on about mental illness and schizophrenia
because our last big profile shooter was diagnosed after the killing.
Also schizophrenia brings delusion that plays perfectly into someone
acting out a purpose as in mass shootings. This means a person does not kill for
revenge, greed, joy, they kill in an unreal world they made up in their head.
I don't call people with mental illness fucked up I call fucked up people fucked up.
Huge difference and clearly shows bias on your part.
Mental illness is no one's fault.
I happen to think this, mental illness, is the subject to be addressing not banning guns,
because this is the cause.
We have laws already in place let's just enforce them. And let's get mental health
treatment readily available to help people before they hurt themselves or others.
but certainly as you wish ...
enjoy your day
(kinda nice to see this side of you, Byrnzie)
Slept with the windows open in the summer.
Walked the street in the wee hours of the morning.
Life has been devalued, hope gone for many.
Pick up a gun make a victim,
get what you want, take a life so what.
Life sucks, theirs must too and if it doesn't and mine does
I'll hate you for that. I'll take what you have and abuse you before I go.
And then I'll go home and have a lemonade and BBQ and tell my friends
the fun I had at the rich guys house tormenting the old guy in front of his wife
and I'll show them the wedding rings I got.
Yes...
times are gone and what is replaced is ugly but we can take our lives back by fighting back.
Just as my neighbor did and thank God because he is a really nice old coot
and one that is not gonna take it anymore.
What's changed since those days? One thing is a shitton of guns being added to society.
Also, that list doesn't include the biggest ones from the last 25 years. The Luby's massacre among others are missing.
In the Giffords shooting it certainly was one component, and it may be in this case as well, but there are many other factors, including access to the instrument of the killings - the guns themselves. There are countless other shootings where the perpetrator was not mentally ill, so how do we account for those?
I agree with you that this is a human issue, but not necessarily a mentally ill human issue. Those that are not mentally ill can and do commit these crimes.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
1. Mental illness is not the cause of all of these shootings.
2. Why can't we address mental illness and gun control?
3. Gun control does not mean banning guns. Nobody is talking about banning guns.
4. We don't have laws in place to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Therefore new laws are needed.
5. Treatment was readily available for many mass shooters. Some were seeking help at the time they killed.
These killings are not being carried out by law abiding responsible legal gun owners
in their right minds.
There are laws, and they are not being enforced. This is the logical place to start.
Along with real help, active help, affordable help for families who know
there loved ones are ill.
And yes of course there are people talking about banning guns, turn the TV on lately?
and if they had it their way there would be no guns. Some are just more honest about it than others.
Your post disregarding poor Grandma and addressing the fact that we would need
so many stories to counteract the use of guns.
Hell we need just one ...
hers and the fact she was not brutally victimized by some souless
men who don't value her life whatsoever.
She had the courage to protect herself, the forethought and the right.
What if your scenario played out instead?...
no gun for poor granny
really? :fp:that is one ugly picture.
If someone does not value life they don't care if they take one.
I am addressing mental illness issue, from the get go in this case because I feel
he will be found ill as the Gifford shooter was after the fact.
Seems more experts are agreeing as time is passing.
I mean, shooting someone doesn't always render them helpless.
Looks like these tasers disable people immediately and render them helpless.
The idea that it would have been better if armed civilians were defensively trying to shoot a target in a dark, smoke filled theater is rather comical in a dark humorous way.
It's clear you feel strongly about the need for mental health treatment and empathy for those struggling with mental illness, as do I. My concern is again the stigma that results when there are very generalizing kinds of comments and judgments being made that because someone commits a crime like this, they must be mentally ill.
Below are links to 2 articles on the topic. The second article is peer reviewed, but a little lengthy; this is the conclusion:
"Several general conclusions are supported by this brief overview. First, mental disorders are neither necessary, nor sufficient causes of violence. The major determinants of violence continue to be socio-demographic and socio-economic factors such as being young, male, and of lower socio-economic status.
Second, members of the public undoubtedly exaggerate both the strength of the relationship between major mental disorders and violence, as well as their own personal risk from the severely mentally ill. It is far more likely that people with a serious mental illness will be the victim of violence.
Third, substance abuse appears to be a major determinant of violence and this is true whether it occurs in the context of a concurrent mental illness or not. Those with substance disorders are major contributors to community violence, perhaps accounting for as much as a third of self-reported violent acts, and seven out of every 10 crimes of violence among mentally disordered offenders.
Finally, too much past research has focussed on the person with the mental illness, rather than the nature of the social interchange that led up to the violence. Consequently, we know much less than we should about the nature of these relationships and the contextual determinants of violence, and much less than we should about opportunities for primary prevention (30). Nevertheless, current literature supports early identification and treatment of substance abuse problems, and greater attention to the diagnosis and management of concurrent substance abuse disorders among seriously mentally ill as potential violence prevention strategies (25)."
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07 ... s-say?lite
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
that's the point. laws change to protect the citizens and should reflect the current state of society. too much gun violence should not equal more guns for the "responsible".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I'll take "answers that are obvious to the rest of us" for $1000, Alex.
*pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew, pee-tew*
"and that's our final Daily Double".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Meanwhile...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... e-daughter
Pennsylvania man arrested and daughter safe after three shot dead
Kevin Cleeves, 36, was caught in Ohio after fleeing the scene of a shooting where he allegedly abducted his 4-year-old daughter
Reuters
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 28 July 2012
Police in Ohio on Saturday arrested a Pennsylvania man suspected of fatally shooting three people near his hometown and then fleeing with his 4-year-old daughter, officials said.
Police rescued the girl unharmed when they arrested the suspect, Kevin Cleeves, 36, of Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, at about 5am ET, said Detective Sgt. Jordan Yacovone of the Austintown, Ohio, police department.
"The 4-year-old was with him. She's fine," he said.
Cleeves was arrested in the parking lot of a shopping plaza, he said, in Austintown, just west of Youngstown, Ohio. Officers spotted the car because of an Amber Alert, issued in cases of alleged child abductions.
The shootings occurred about 9pm ET on Friday in the driveway of a home in Quincy Township, Pennsylvania, southwest of Harrisburg, according to Pennsylvania state trooper Adam Reed.
The three victims, all adults, were shot dead in a car, he said. Quincy Township is about 250 miles from Austintown. The identities of the dead were not immediately released.
Reed said he did not know the motive for the shootings, but local media reports said Cleeves had confronted his wife about custody arrangements for their daughter Leia.
"He abducted his 4-year-old daughter from the scene of the shooting," Reed said.
Cleeves was jailed in Ohio awaiting extradition to Pennsylvania, authorities said.
Thump.
There.
I hit'cha with a flower.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
in the minds of the Constitution Crowd, all they are thinking when they see something like this is "too bad the four weren't armed with assault weapons, had they been responsible gun owners (hey, what gun-toter isn't responsible?), they all would have shot him directly through the heart with zero danger to anyone else around and all of this could have been avoided, and they all would have flown the girl back to the safety of the Fortress of Solitude".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I don't understand...what's your point ?
Godfather.
Godfather.
a gun is very much needed when ones life is at stake.
But if a person is adverse to guns or afraid of them,
tasers are a good alternative, just know they don't stop someone
geeked up on certain drugs and it would not necessarily make the bad guy helpless.
Officers often have to taser many times and it will still take 2 or more officers to control
the person.
great articles!
The most recent case now of a young man on twitter saying he would shoot up his school
he is in court today for threats, two charges I never heard of.
I hope an evaluation is done so if he needs help he gets help before violence.
but is this a bit off topic, personal and insulting?
like the game show the obvious answer often not the correct one
that show brings out the brains though, awesome! I need to watch that again
sometime soon... thanks!