Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

Byrnzie

hedonist wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

So are you saying that guns aren't the problem?


How many times will people need to have these discussions before something is done about it? The next gun massacre like this in the U.S isn't just a possibility, it's a certainty. Just a matter of when, and where.
And yet people will continue arguing that guns aren't the problem...until the next massacre...and again the same arguments...and then the next massacre...and on....and on...and on...and more and more lives are destroyed...and on it goes...

See the first sentence I posted, please.

It's not those who grasp the gravity of what the weapon can do. I assume, hope, that those who get it are the ones who aren't going the shakiest-gun-in-the-west route, the madman route.

I'm more worried about the clueless, or people with mental issues like young Mr. Holmes, or the whatever, add to the list as you see fit - that's the problem (at least, part of it) - those who have been given so-called legal access to purchase.

Like I said, there should be regulations, checks, in place.

Maybe they should only be available for people to use under controlled conditions, like a shooting range. That way those who love shooting them can still shoot them, and at the same time they can be taken off the streets - to the best of the ability of the authorities - (not an easy proposition, but it would be a start).

PJ_Soul

On monday there was a mass shooting in Toronto at a neighborhood block party. 2 dead, 24 more injured (or something like that). Also a massive armory found in a home in Barrie, including assault weapons, bombs, etc. 7 people shot, 1 killed in a mall in Toronto a few weeks ago... things are fucked up.

I feel so bad for all the people whose lives are affected by this shit. I don't think there is anything to be done about it though... psycho murderers are gonna do their psycho murderer thing one way or another I figure. Nonetheless, we may as well make it as hard as possible for them. I think that anyone buying a gun or ammo should have to undergo psychological testing or something (if people insist that guns should be sold at all). Make people absolutely jump through hoops to buy guns.

Byrnzie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... e-colorado

Sympathy for Aurora's victims should not stop us addressing the fact that more than 84 people are shot to death daily in the US

'...Americans are no more prone to mental illness or violence than any other people in the world. What they do have is more guns: roughly, 90 for every 100 people. And regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.

The trite insistence that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" simply avoids the reality that people can kill people much more easily with guns than anything else that's accessible. Americans understand this. That's why a plurality supports greater gun control, and a majority thinks the sale of firearms should be more tightly regulated.

The trouble is that people feel powerless to do anything about it. The gun lobby has proved sufficiently potent in rallying opposition to virtually all gun control measures that Democrats have all but given up on arguing for it. In the meantime, the country is literally and metaphorically dying for it.

Gun control is possible. There are both a constituency for it and an argument for it. But it can't happen without a political coalition prepared to fight for it.

If America can elect a black president, it can do this.

frazba

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/20/america-needs-talk-gun-control-wake-colorado

Sympathy for Aurora's victims should not stop us addressing the fact that more than 84 people are shot to death daily in the US

'...Americans are no more prone to mental illness or violence than any other people in the world. What they do have is more guns: roughly, 90 for every 100 people. And regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.

The trite insistence that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" simply avoids the reality that people can kill people much more easily with guns than anything else that's accessible. Americans understand this. That's why a plurality supports greater gun control, and a majority thinks the sale of firearms should be more tightly regulated.

The trouble is that people feel powerless to do anything about it. The gun lobby has proved sufficiently potent in rallying opposition to virtually all gun control measures that Democrats have all but given up on arguing for it. In the meantime, the country is literally and metaphorically dying for it.

Gun control is possible. There are both a constituency for it and an argument for it. But it can't happen without a political coalition prepared to fight for it.

If America can elect a black president, it can do this.

Once again Gary Younge hits the nail on the head

frazba

Fifi_Ireland wrote:

I dont disagree with you but here in Ireland there arent guns and I made the point in my first point someone went to a gig and stabbed 9 people, sure none of them died but its still crazy.
I'm pretty sure we're on the same wavelength in the long run

Crazy indeed, but imagine how much worse it could've been if he'd had easy access to a gun?

Byrnzie

covered in bliss wrote:

pandora wrote:

it matters not if there are guns in this world ...
they are a means only

what we need to look at is why do people not value life, their own or others

Agreed. I'm a firm believer in "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

More people are killed and injured in mass car bombings and by suicide bomber. Just look at the death numbers in this list of mass car bombings alone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_car_bombings

What??

Those places either were, or still are, war zones. Iraq. Afghanistan. Pakistan. Somalia. The I.R.A bombings in the U.K.

What relation does any of this have with gun violence in the U.S?

Hinn

MotoDC wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

is anyone honestly surprised by this?

Of course we are, are you out of your mind?

Why the surprise? The lack of any action to address all the past instances... Seems to be just a case of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I've said elsewhere - Anders Breivik is a surprise. When that happened, the initial shock was that it was Norway and not some kind of camp in the US. This? I don't think I even shrugged when I heard about it, as soon as I heard it happened in America.

ComeToTX

frazba wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/20/america-needs-talk-gun-control-wake-colorado

Sympathy for Aurora's victims should not stop us addressing the fact that more than 84 people are shot to death daily in the US

'...Americans are no more prone to mental illness or violence than any other people in the world. What they do have is more guns: roughly, 90 for every 100 people. And regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.

The trite insistence that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" simply avoids the reality that people can kill people much more easily with guns than anything else that's accessible. Americans understand this. That's why a plurality supports greater gun control, and a majority thinks the sale of firearms should be more tightly regulated.

The trouble is that people feel powerless to do anything about it. The gun lobby has proved sufficiently potent in rallying opposition to virtually all gun control measures that Democrats have all but given up on arguing for it. In the meantime, the country is literally and metaphorically dying for it.

Gun control is possible. There are both a constituency for it and an argument for it. But it can't happen without a political coalition prepared to fight for it.

If America can elect a black president, it can do this.

Once again Gary Younge hits the nail on the head

Yep, spot on.

pandora

No one is shocked or surprised no, but thank goodness we all still feel.
This one of the blessings here if any. That our sadness and grief is shared.
That always from the heinous comes the good.

I haven't read through the entire thread but I hope it is not another gun debate.
This goes way past guns to the core of the problem,
how we feel about ourselves, others, life and how much societies as a whole value each.
We see this is a human problem shared worldwide.

Hopefully any laws or change that take place in the future are directed at
the person committing the crime, not what they decide to use,
the weapon of choice.

This man had a need for readily available mental health care
as so many do. I'm sure there are people who knew this of him
but did not know how to help,
lacked the resources to help, the courage to help.

We need walk in help, we need cheap, affordable care, we need a way,
a place for a family member to easily seek help for their loved ones
who have mental health issues, without insurance, without financial resources.
Or for one to seek help for themselves before they turn to illegal drug use, violence,
suicide. We need to remove stigmas and shame.

This young man I feel a product of a society that let him down. I feel he was not angry
not like many who mass kill, no...

his game he played, he thought he'd win but decided to quit halfway through.
Thank God for this.

aerial

pandora wrote:

No one is shocked or surprised no, but thank goodness we all still feel.
This one of the blessings here if any. That our sadness and grief is shared.
That always from the heinous comes the good.

I haven't read through the entire thread but I hope it is not another gun debate.
This goes way past guns to the core of the problem,
how we feel about ourselves, others, life and how much societies as a whole value each.
We see this is a human problem shared worldwide.

Hopefully any laws or change that take place in the future are directed at
the person committing the crime, not what they decide to use,
the weapon of choice.

This man had a need for readily available mental health care
as so many do. I'm sure there are people who knew this of him
but did not know how to help,
lacked the resources to help, the courage to help.

We need walk in help, we need cheap, affordable care, we need a way,
a place for a family member to easily seek help for their loved ones
who have mental health issues, without insurance, without financial resources.
Or for one to seek help for themselves before they turn to illegal drug use, violence,
suicide. We need to remove stigmas and shame.

This young man I feel a product of a society that let him down. I feel he was not angry
not like many who mass kill, no...

his game he played, he thought he'd win but decided to quit halfway through.
Thank God for this.

I agree......

AndyVanSlyke

know1 wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

...or maybe it's less of a gun problem and more of a problem with our society.

This is what I think.

And like you said, know1, a few posts back. You can't put on new without seeing "best", "fastest", "greatest"....

Have you watched morning news lately? We've become a very apathetic society. Every week on morning news it's..
Divorce
A pretty white girl being kidnapped
A baby being kidnapped
A shooting
A person getting a flesh eating bacteria
This is how people start their "morning routines"

Then Facbook...I think Facebook has a lot of harm on society. Just like guns, Facebook can do a lot of good but not when it's put in the hands of socially and emotionally deprived people starving for attention and love, you're gonna get some sad behaviors.

Both can be instantly gratifying for a sad, lonely person.

ComeToTX

aerial wrote:

pandora wrote:

No one is shocked or surprised no, but thank goodness we all still feel.
This one of the blessings here if any. That our sadness and grief is shared.
That always from the heinous comes the good.

I haven't read through the entire thread but I hope it is not another gun debate.
This goes way past guns to the core of the problem,
how we feel about ourselves, others, life and how much societies as a whole value each.
We see this is a human problem shared worldwide.

Hopefully any laws or change that take place in the future are directed at
the person committing the crime, not what they decide to use,
the weapon of choice.

This man had a need for readily available mental health care
as so many do. I'm sure there are people who knew this of him
but did not know how to help,
lacked the resources to help, the courage to help.

We need walk in help, we need cheap, affordable care, we need a way,
a place for a family member to easily seek help for their loved ones
who have mental health issues, without insurance, without financial resources.
Or for one to seek help for themselves before they turn to illegal drug use, violence,
suicide. We need to remove stigmas and shame.

This young man I feel a product of a society that let him down. I feel he was not angry
not like many who mass kill, no...

his game he played, he thought he'd win but decided to quit halfway through.
Thank God for this.

I agree......

We can't do both?

What does the body count have to be before we decide to change? Is it 100 or a 1,000? They're only going to get bigger so let me know when it's okay to look at not only the society that's causing these things but also the guns being used.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

aerial wrote:

pandora wrote:

No one is shocked or surprised no, but thank goodness we all still feel.
This one of the blessings here if any. That our sadness and grief is shared.
That always from the heinous comes the good.

I haven't read through the entire thread but I hope it is not another gun debate.
This goes way past guns to the core of the problem,
how we feel about ourselves, others, life and how much societies as a whole value each.
We see this is a human problem shared worldwide.

Hopefully any laws or change that take place in the future are directed at
the person committing the crime, not what they decide to use,
the weapon of choice.

This man had a need for readily available mental health care
as so many do. I'm sure there are people who knew this of him
but did not know how to help,
lacked the resources to help, the courage to help.

We need walk in help, we need cheap, affordable care, we need a way,
a place for a family member to easily seek help for their loved ones
who have mental health issues, without insurance, without financial resources.
Or for one to seek help for themselves before they turn to illegal drug use, violence,
suicide. We need to remove stigmas and shame.

This young man I feel a product of a society that let him down. I feel he was not angry
not like many who mass kill, no...

his game he played, he thought he'd win but decided to quit halfway through.
Thank God for this.

I agree......

I don't.

Are you serious? The guy's a piece of shit- peanut riddled shit to be exact. School wasn't going well for him and he was depressed. So, may as well go kill a theater full of people enjoying Batman. Pandora are you suggesting society is really to blame for this calamity? Most young men, when they face adversity, look in their pants to see if they have a set and begin to deal with their adversity in a slightly less harmful manner.

I don't know his complete history, but I know enough to know he knew he was committing mass murder and that his act was deplorable. As such, he's filth- worthless. Save your empathy for the victims.

Further, this is about gun control. This poor, misunderstood, beaten down, nice and shy young man armed himself with an easily attained assault rifle and commando gear and went to work expressing his sadness by playing real life call of duty. No guns. No deaths by guns. It's pretty much as simple as that.

pandora

ComeToTX wrote:

aerial wrote:

I agree......

We can't do both?

What does the body count have to be before we decide to change? Is it 100 or a 1,000? They're only going to get bigger so let me know when it's okay to look at not only the society that's causing these things but also the guns being used.

This debate ...
you, me, we all know it well,
it is old and never changes

that is my answer ...

never...

and you know why

pandora

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

aerial wrote:

I agree......

I don't.

Are you serious? The guy's a piece of shit- peanut riddled shit to be exact. School wasn't going well for him and he was depressed. So, may as well go kill a theater full of people enjoying Batman. Pandora are you suggesting society is really to blame for this calamity? Most young men, when they face adversity, look in their pants to see if they have a set and begin to deal with their adversity in a slightly less harmful manner.

I don't know his complete history, but I know enough to know he knew he was committing mass murder and that his act was deplorable. As such, he's filth- worthless. Save your empathy for the victims.

Further, this is about gun control. This poor, misunderstood, beaten down, nice and shy young man armed himself with an easily attained assault rifle and commando gear and went to work expressing his sadness by playing real life call of duty. No guns. No deaths by guns. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Perhaps you are unwilling to understand or feel him because you think that is condoning
what he did. I have empathy for all in this situation. I would not if I thought his motives
were pure evil as some who kill are.

He was a little depressed about school? Things weren't going well? :?
Obviously it was much more in his head and people close to him knew this.
People who lived their lives with him.

Too many young people who are struggling through mental illness are undiagnosed,
unable to get help, turn their anger on themselves, internalize, slowly hurt themselves.
Turn to illegal drugs, alcohol, consider suicide. Some build up anger and lash out at others.

But all of them are not thinking logically the way you are looking at them.
Can you try to take a walk through mental illness and understand?

He at the age schizophrenia often manifests. His actions speak volumes
of a break with reality.

This is not at all about guns, it is about a society that is not helping those
who are sick in the head ... period.

This the danger not the guns.

Help needs to be readily available before someone has a break
and decides to play a real life game as this kid did
or lash out at a society because they are angry.

If he was in treatment for his illness, on medicine, we would not be discussing this.

josevolution

Assault rifles are for what ? killing humans no , they should be outlawed civilans should not be allowed to buy them period .....This creep also bought a ton of ammo thru the good ol web this should also not be allowed ...At the very least assault rifles should be outlawed .....

josevolution

pandora wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

aerial wrote:

I agree......

I don't.

Are you serious? The guy's a piece of shit- peanut riddled shit to be exact. School wasn't going well for him and he was depressed. So, may as well go kill a theater full of people enjoying Batman. Pandora are you suggesting society is really to blame for this calamity? Most young men, when they face adversity, look in their pants to see if they have a set and begin to deal with their adversity in a slightly less harmful manner.

I don't know his complete history, but I know enough to know he knew he was committing mass murder and that his act was deplorable. As such, he's filth- worthless. Save your empathy for the victims.

Further, this is about gun control. This poor, misunderstood, beaten down, nice and shy young man armed himself with an easily attained assault rifle and commando gear and went to work expressing his sadness by playing real life call of duty. No guns. No deaths by guns. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Perhaps you are unwilling to understand or feel him because you think that is condoning
what he did. I have empathy for all in this situation. I would not if I thought his motives
were pure evil as some who kill are.

He was a little depressed about school? Things weren't going well? :?
Obviously it was much more in his head and people close to him knew this.
People who lived their lives with him.

Too many young people who are struggling through mental illness are undiagnosed,
unable to get help, turn their anger on themselves, internalize, slowly hurt themselves.
Turn to illegal drugs, alcohol, consider suicide. Some build up anger and lash out at others.

But all of them are not thinking logically the way you are looking at them.
Can you try to take a walk through mental illness and understand?

He at the age schizophrenia often manifests. His actions speak volumes
of a break with reality.

This is not at all about guns, it is about a society that is not helping those
who are sick in the head ... period.

This the danger not the guns.

Help needs to be readily available before someone has a break
and decides to play a real life game as this kid did
or lash out at a society because they are angry.

If he was in treatment for his illness, on medicine, we would not be discussing this.

Yeah and how do we get this done this country can barely agree on health coverage for all it's citizens and you wan't people to be available for all the people who have mental issues good luck with that ....

brianlux

It's been suggested that this not become yet another gun thread, yet if there's ever been an incident that indicates guns are a problem in America, this is it. But sadly, it's America and it seems that guns are here to stay. I wish I could say otherwise. But at least, at the very least this incident should be reason to make guns much more difficult to obtain.

Also, there has been talk here about feeling sorry for those involved. We all rightly feel badly for the victims. I also feel sorry for people who have depression, anxiety, who are lonely, grief stricken, in despair or are suicidal. My heart goes out to people in that kind of pain. But I don't feel sorry for sociopaths who go out and kill people and ruin many other lives in the process. If they have to kill, they should take themselves out of the picture, not others.

PJ_Soul

Hinn wrote:

MotoDC wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

is anyone honestly surprised by this?

Of course we are, are you out of your mind?

Why the surprise? The lack of any action to address all the past instances... Seems to be just a case of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I've said elsewhere - Anders Breivik is a surprise. When that happened, the initial shock was that it was Norway and not some kind of camp in the US. This? I don't think I even shrugged when I heard about it, as soon as I heard it happened in America.

That's kind of fucked up.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

aerial wrote:

I agree......

I don't.

Are you serious? The guy's a piece of shit- peanut riddled shit to be exact. School wasn't going well for him and he was depressed. So, may as well go kill a theater full of people enjoying Batman. Pandora are you suggesting society is really to blame for this calamity? Most young men, when they face adversity, look in their pants to see if they have a set and begin to deal with their adversity in a slightly less harmful manner.

I don't know his complete history, but I know enough to know he knew he was committing mass murder and that his act was deplorable. As such, he's filth- worthless. Save your empathy for the victims.

Further, this is about gun control. This poor, misunderstood, beaten down, nice and shy young man armed himself with an easily attained assault rifle and commando gear and went to work expressing his sadness by playing real life call of duty. No guns. No deaths by guns. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Perhaps you are unwilling to understand or feel him because you think that is condoning
what he did. I have empathy for all in this situation. I would not if I thought his motives
were pure evil as some who kill are.

He was a little depressed about school? Things weren't going well? :?
Obviously it was much more in his head and people close to him knew this.
People who lived their lives with him.

Too many young people who are struggling through mental illness are undiagnosed,
unable to get help, turn their anger on themselves, internalize, slowly hurt themselves.
Turn to illegal drugs, alcohol, consider suicide. Some build up anger and lash out at others.

But all of them are not thinking logically the way you are looking at them.
Can you try to take a walk through mental illness and understand?

He at the age schizophrenia often manifests. His actions speak volumes
of a break with reality.

This is not at all about guns, it is about a society that is not helping those
who are sick in the head ... period.

This the danger not the guns.

Help needs to be readily available before someone has a break
and decides to play a real life game as this kid did
or lash out at a society because they are angry.

If he was in treatment for his illness, on medicine, we would not be discussing this.

Premature statements. You have no idea what his motivations or reasons for doing this are at all.