Pandora, why use this event into an opportunity to talk about the shortcomings of the social services we are able to offer mentally ill people? Several mentally ill people, with much less support, manage to get through their difficult days without taking up arms and committing a massacre.
While I agree that there are deficiencies related to dealing with mentally ill people, I take a position that the wide range of labels that we have developed explaining all types of behaviours has provided an alibi for many people who, quite frankly, should not have one: "Oh. He's depressed. That explains it. Poor guy. Things didn't go well for him and he got sad. He's the victim here. We need to help him!"
The way I see it, these are the realities regarding this situation:
1. A very weak, pathetic person could not cope anymore and barbarically shot a bunch of people. Regardless of what his motivations or the underlying reasons might have been... he is not to be pitied.
2. Guns have become 'really cool toys' for a lot of idiots. Making guns accessible to such idiots is an immense mistake of a profound nature. We have drawn the line on 'freedom' in several areas of society to preserve the safety of the public (ie. speeding limits). Why do we adhere to the notion that guns are a fundamental right when they continually prove they are very very dangerous?
3. Throughout time, people- especially men- are prone to violence. Watch how the pubs fill up tonight as we all watch and cheer as men beat the hell out of each other in the ring (let alone look at the wars we have waged and the genocides we have committed). On an individual basis, some are a little more prone to violence than others and giving them access to excellent killing tools is not very smart.
Man, I hope my kids can at least go to a show without the threat of some narcissistic moron looking to kill them because things just aren't going so great. I agree with one of the earlier posters who expressed that if things were that bad, this idiot should have just offed himself. The fact that he didn't reveals his malicious nature. Ultimately, he held others responsible for his miserable existence.
I already know your response, Pandora. Medicate the shit out of the guy, give him a few massages and a couple of fireside chats, and he'll be better. And... as a result of our noble efforts... we'll be better for it. Sheesh.
I will say that, in looking in to our Founding Fathers' various opinions on the 2nd ammendment, guns, "gun control" etc ... AND trying to be VERY mindful of NOT blindly accepting quotations (because there are SO many errant \ mis \ spurious quotes from the founding fathers) i did stumble across one from John Adams that does seem to hint rather strongly at the notion of "gun control":
"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)
One has to balance this quotation from the lovable\loathable curmudgeon however not only against those of some of the other fathers (ie. Hamilton) but also against Adam's own penchant for outright monarchy, and his blatant sometimes-contempt for the constitution (ie. Alien & Sedition act).
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
he wanted to kill as many as he possibly could and he himself to be live in a scene from some film or video game type fashioned, all playing out in his sick ass head. to him he was the master of the universe for that time being. he was controlling life & death, smiling the entire time.
the guy is a monster. yet again evil has shown its unreal face. somehow this guy fell through the crack of life & became a scumbag, a lower form of breathing.
Those places either were, or still are, war zones. Iraq. Afghanistan. Pakistan. Somalia. The I.R.A bombings in the U.K.
What relation does any of this have with gun violence in the U.S?
Nothing. The thread wasn't intended to be a gun control debate and I was quoting something I believed in. Mass death doesn't usually happen by shooting. It's too easy to say "let's ban guns" when something like this happens... but then you're not paying any attention to the real issue. The guy came unglued. HE used a gun and he intended to kill by bomb, too. This was HIS fault! HE did this, the gun was just what he chose to make it happen.
Each year in the US, there are more alcohol-related deaths than gun related ones. Where's the outcry to ban alcohol if everyone is so concerned about needless deaths?
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm/
alcoholic liver disease deaths: 15,183
Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 24,518 (can you imagine the total if accidents were included?
Here's an interesting tidbit about assault weapons: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html
Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes
covered in bliss - I was just about to post the same type of statistics. Drunk driving killed more people in the united states last year then all the firearm deaths, and 75% or more of those firearms were handguns. If a man can create a computer in his garage and create a global empire worth billions then another man can kill fifty people if he puts his mind to it. The real issue is violence in the United States and the disregard for human life. Why can't these mentally unstable people kill the bad guys(rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, lawyers, politicians)?
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
he wanted to kill as many as he possibly could and he himself to be live in a scene from some film or video game type fashioned, all playing out in his sick ass head. to him he was the master of the universe for that time being. he was controlling life & death, smiling the entire time.
the guy is a monster. yet again evil has shown its unreal face. somehow this guy fell through the crack of life & became a scumbag, a lower form of breathing.
Sad to agree with this, but I do. Of course much is yet to be known, but yeah. I think this is right on.
covered in bliss - I was just about to post the same type of statistics. Drunk driving killed more people in the united states last year then all the firearm deaths, and 75% or more of those firearms were handguns. If a man can create a computer in his garage and create a global empire worth billions then another man can kill fifty people if he puts his mind to it. The real issue is violence in the United States and the disregard for human life. Why can't these mentally unstable people kill the bad guys(rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, lawyers, politicians)?
I agree with your assessment of what the underlying issue really is, however I find it difficult seeing your comparison between drunk driving deaths and firearm deaths.
While I abhor drinking and driving (my best friend killed by a drunk driver), this act is fundamentally different than the act of premeditated murder using a weapon that you have loaded in advance to do your deed. I think we can agree that, with exceptions, deaths by gun are largely planned.
We might have to live with people making poor decisions when drinking. We have tried to educate people and appeal to their better judgement regarding drinking and driving, but people are stupid. Over and over again, we have proven this to be true. Regardless, we can make our society safer by restricting weapon and ammunition sales.
If sidearms and assault weapons were illegal. If rifles, shotguns, and ammunition were really expensive (because the weapon industry- having no conscience to date- were forced to pay obscene taxes to produce their goods). If people who intended on using guns in a responsible manner needed to certify and register. And people that were caught in possession of illegal firearms paid a significant legal price... can someone really think that we wouldn't have made our society safer?
Granted, this is a band aid solution to the underlying problem you alluded to. Further, it is likely knife murder statistics would spike; however, in my mind, something has to be done. It's just too damn easy right now.
I know gun control has been debated in other threads - just wanted to add my two cents. I had to buy Claritin recently at the local drug store and a buzzer went off I guess at the cashier's counter to show someone had bought Claritin. I'm guessing you can make meth with it (?) so they want to make sure somebody isn't buying dozens of boxes at a time. When you want to buy some of the Sudafed type products now you have to ask the pharmacist and sign a logbook thing to get it. I can't remember - you might have to show your driver's license.
So. Shouldn't it be a little harder to buy guns and/or ammunition? The fact this guy was able to buy 6,000 rounds of ammo on the internet and a little buzzer didn't go off anywhere? Who needs 6,000 rounds of ammo?
I am not a member of the NRA, I do believe people should be allowed to have some guns (with strict background checks), I own a shotgun. I wish the NRA would support reasonable gun control.
While easy access to guns for everyone does contribute to tragedies like these, nothing contributes to tragedies like these more than a mental health system that doesn't work as it should for adults. If Holmes' mom said she knew they had the right person it's probably because he's been ill for a very long time. Yet, because he's an adult, there is nothing anyone can do with someone dangerously ill unless the person themselves wishes to find help. Even then, help is very hard to come by. In ABQ, John Hyde killed 5 people after days of trying to get help for himself and coming up short. John Hyde is not a monster, he's a very ill individual who saw devils. He needed help. Our system did not give it to him. Undoubtedly, Holmes is and has been a very ill individual, yet what have we been able to do to stop him from these tragic acts? Roger Ebert has a great piece out about how everyone one will have a gun control discussion and then everything will go right back to the status quo, as that appears to be it's function. He is right. So, why don't we have the mental health discussion and then actually get things changed so that Hyde, Holmes and the next person on that list aren't on it?
While easy access to guns for everyone does contribute to tragedies like these, nothing contributes to tragedies like these more than a mental health system that doesn't work as it should for adults. If Holmes' mom said she knew they had the right person it's probably because he's been ill for a very long time. Yet, because he's an adult, there is nothing anyone can do with someone dangerously ill unless the person themselves wishes to find help. Even then, help is very hard to come by. In ABQ, John Hyde killed 5 people after days of trying to get help for himself and coming up short. John Hyde is not a monster, he's a very ill individual who saw devils. He needed help. Our system did not give it to him. Undoubtedly, Holmes is and has been a very ill individual, yet what have we been able to do to stop him from these tragic acts? Roger Ebert has a great piece out about how everyone one will have a gun control discussion and then everything will go right back to the status quo, as that appears to be it's function. He is right. So, why don't we have the mental health discussion and then actually get things changed so that Hyde, Holmes and the next person on that list aren't on it?
The issue you raise isn't as easy as, "Let them eat cake." Just go fix the mental health care system? This is not an easy task. Unless I am mistaken, I have heard your country has difficulties treating some of your sick children and elderly... let alone dysfunctional adults in a tax-based funded sanitarium. What becomes compromised to handle the financial tax burden such an endeavour would require... or are you suggesting increase taxes and compromise nothing?
I'd be curious to hear what you propose we do with these people? For example, how do we identify them? How do we ensure the identification process is adequate and no misidentifications occur? What does rehabilitation look like? How do we house these people? Where are they housed? How do we know when we have rehabilitated them? How do we gauge when these people are fit to be reintegrated? How do we monitor their progress after reintegration? How do we deal with relapses? This sounds like a multi-billion dollar endeavour to be run the way it might need to be run.
Don't get me wrong... the ideology is fine; however, the questions are endless and the answers are not obvious.
While easy access to guns for everyone does contribute to tragedies like these, nothing contributes to tragedies like these more than a mental health system that doesn't work as it should for adults. If Holmes' mom said she knew they had the right person it's probably because he's been ill for a very long time. Yet, because he's an adult, there is nothing anyone can do with someone dangerously ill unless the person themselves wishes to find help. Even then, help is very hard to come by. In ABQ, John Hyde killed 5 people after days of trying to get help for himself and coming up short. John Hyde is not a monster, he's a very ill individual who saw devils. He needed help. Our system did not give it to him. Undoubtedly, Holmes is and has been a very ill individual, yet what have we been able to do to stop him from these tragic acts? Roger Ebert has a great piece out about how everyone one will have a gun control discussion and then everything will go right back to the status quo, as that appears to be it's function. He is right. So, why don't we have the mental health discussion and then actually get things changed so that Hyde, Holmes and the next person on that list aren't on it?
The issue you raise isn't as easy as, "Let them eat cake." Just go fix the mental health care system? This is not an easy task. Unless I am mistaken, I have heard your country has difficulties treating some of your sick children and elderly... let alone dysfunctional adults in a tax-based funded sanitarium. What becomes compromised to handle the financial tax burden such an endeavour would require... or are you suggesting increase taxes and compromise nothing?
I'd be curious to hear what you propose we do with these people? For example, how do we identify them? How do we ensure the identification process is adequate and no misidentifications occur? What does rehabilitation look like? How do we house these people? Where are they housed? How do we know when we have rehabilitated them? How do we gauge when these people are fit to be reintegrated? How do we monitor their progress after reintegration? How do we deal with relapses? This sounds like a multi-billion dollar endeavour to be run the way it might need to be run.
Don't get me wrong... the ideology is fine; however, the questions are endless and the answers are not obvious.
And all of those factors also function under the idea that someone can force adult to get treatment and be controlled during treatment. And of course we can't. I wouod say that the gun crime issue is way more dire an issue to address than whether or not one person with mental health issues in a million at least is handled properly so as to prevent a shooting rampage.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
covered in bliss - I was just about to post the same type of statistics. Drunk driving killed more people in the united states last year then all the firearm deaths, and 75% or more of those firearms were handguns. If a man can create a computer in his garage and create a global empire worth billions then another man can kill fifty people if he puts his mind to it. The real issue is violence in the United States and the disregard for human life. Why can't these mentally unstable people kill the bad guys(rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, lawyers, politicians)?
Drunk driving has nothing to do with violence. Neither does liver disease caused by excessive alcohol consumption.
But I see what you're saying: people die every day of all kinds of causes. Therefore, there's no problem with guns in the U.S - despite 84 people being shot and killed everyday - so let's just carry on as normal.
Your country is quite fucked up. Hence that way of thinking. The total lack of political will to do anything about it, the widespread reactions of trying to gag the debate over the most blatant ways to address the issue whenever the shootings crop up...
I can't recall where I've read it, but there was a statistic that showed people being actually more opposed to gun control since Columbine.
Surprise? I think only those who've just woken up from a coma or have been dementing over the last 12 years can have any cause to be surprised.
115 bucks for half a haircut by a novice? I want my money back!
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g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,125
Anyway, I can see where this thread is heading: It's gonna be another soap box for someone who's name begins with P, and will eventually be locked by the moderators.
Therefore, I'll bail now, before I get another one month ban.
Are you talking to me....OH begins with P :fp:
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
While easy access to guns for everyone does contribute to tragedies like these, nothing contributes to tragedies like these more than a mental health system that doesn't work as it should for adults. If Holmes' mom said she knew they had the right person it's probably because he's been ill for a very long time. Yet, because he's an adult, there is nothing anyone can do with someone dangerously ill unless the person themselves wishes to find help. Even then, help is very hard to come by. In ABQ, John Hyde killed 5 people after days of trying to get help for himself and coming up short. John Hyde is not a monster, he's a very ill individual who saw devils. He needed help. Our system did not give it to him. Undoubtedly, Holmes is and has been a very ill individual, yet what have we been able to do to stop him from these tragic acts? Roger Ebert has a great piece out about how everyone one will have a gun control discussion and then everything will go right back to the status quo, as that appears to be it's function. He is right. So, why don't we have the mental health discussion and then actually get things changed so that Hyde, Holmes and the next person on that list aren't on it?
The issue you raise isn't as easy as, "Let them eat cake." Just go fix the mental health care system? This is not an easy task. Unless I am mistaken, I have heard your country has difficulties treating some of your sick children and elderly... let alone dysfunctional adults in a tax-based funded sanitarium. What becomes compromised to handle the financial tax burden such an endeavour would require... or are you suggesting increase taxes and compromise nothing?
I'd be curious to hear what you propose we do with these people? For example, how do we identify them? How do we ensure the identification process is adequate and no misidentifications occur? What does rehabilitation look like? How do we house these people? Where are they housed? How do we know when we have rehabilitated them? How do we gauge when these people are fit to be reintegrated? How do we monitor their progress after reintegration? How do we deal with relapses? This sounds like a multi-billion dollar endeavour to be run the way it might need to be run.
Don't get me wrong... the ideology is fine; however, the questions are endless and the answers are not obvious.
And all of those factors also function under the idea that someone can force adult to get treatment and be controlled during treatment. And of course we can't. I wouod say that the gun crime issue is way more dire an issue to address than whether or not one person with mental health issues in a million at least is handled properly so as to prevent a shooting rampage.
I won't go into the details, but it is so difficult for people to get the help they need sometimes. I will never forget a former student that desperately needed mental help and was reported numerous times for psych evaluations, from teachers to students to counselors, and because a family member said she was fine, she never received the help she needed. Some of you will think this is an isolated incident but unfortunately it seems to be the norm. Schools should have the ability to help these kids because once they leave school it is so much more difficult to help them as adults. We need to modify our system so that there are overrides when there is a real concern that someone could hurt themselves or others. You would think it is that easy to report but the system is beyond broken. We need to become a country that is willing to confront some harsh truths about ourselves and fix these issues before people get hurt instead of waiting until it is a necessity.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Anyway, I can see where this thread is heading: It's gonna be another soap box for someone who's name begins with P, and will eventually be locked by the moderators.
Therefore, I'll bail now, before I get another one month ban.
dont forget to send us a postcard. :wave:
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Your country is quite fucked up. Hence that way of thinking. The total lack of political will to do anything about it, the widespread reactions of trying to gag the debate over the most blatant ways to address the issue whenever the shootings crop up...
I can't recall where I've read it, but there was a statistic that showed people being actually more opposed to gun control since Columbine.
Surprise? I think only those who've just woken up from a coma or have been dementing over the last 12 years can have any cause to be surprised.
I'm Canadian, first of all.
I think it's fucked up that just because there is a horrific mass shooting every few years that it wouldn't still surprise someone when it happens. Someone doing that will always be shocking. People LET themselves become desensitized. It's not something that happens externally, and it's certainly not a given. I think it takes some lack of empathy to not react with shock or surprise when a person does something like that no matter how often it happens.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
'm Canadian, first of all.
I think it's fucked up that just because there is a horrific mass shooting every few years that it would still surprise someone when it happens. Someone doing that will always be shocking. People LET themselves become desensitized. It's not something that happens externally, and it's certainly not a given. I think it takes some lack of empathy to not react with shock or surprise when a person does something like that no matter how often it happens.
way back in 1996 i heard of a massacre in port arthur. now at the time i was reading a janis joplin bio and she was from port arthur, texas... i thought oh no not again. then i heard it was port arthur, TASMANIA. and i thought WTF! tasmania??? it shocked me that this happened in my own country.. and even moreso that it happened in tasmania. im not sure how quick i wouldve jumped to theasumption the massacre was in the US had i not been reading the joplin bio. maybe i wouldve thought of our port arthur initially instead of making that assumption. anyhoo rightly or wrongly whenever news of a gun massacre breaks my thoughts immediately go to the US. it always saddens me and it frustrates me that there is hand wringing and commiseration with the victims and their families and communites and yet it seems as if nothing changes as we sit back and wait for the next massacre... its kinda like when i hear of people dying... i immediately assume cancer got them. it seems to be atypical to me that someone dies in a car wreck or some other way. what am i trying to say???? i guess what im trying to say is we will continue to expect these tragedies, and not be surprised when they do occur, so long as the types of weapons used are available to the public by whatever means.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Your country is quite fucked up. Hence that way of thinking. The total lack of political will to do anything about it, the widespread reactions of trying to gag the debate over the most blatant ways to address the issue whenever the shootings crop up...
I can't recall where I've read it, but there was a statistic that showed people being actually more opposed to gun control since Columbine.
Surprise? I think only those who've just woken up from a coma or have been dementing over the last 12 years can have any cause to be surprised.
:-/ it's not just America that's fucked up, dude. It's people all over the world. There are a lot of bad people everywhere, and there are a lot of good people, too.
This shooting happened just a few miles from my house while I was sleeping. When I woke up to the news, was I shocked? You're goddamn right I was! It's a natural reaction, dude. Is there a tremendous amount of gun violence in America? Sadly, yes. Does that mean we should all just shrug and say, "meh, no big deal"?? Absolutely not. And I'd like to know where you saw a statistic about people being less inclined to want gun control after columbine. Unfortunately, the NRA is a powerful, powerful entity.
he wanted to kill as many as he possibly could and he himself to be live in a scene from some film or video game type fashioned, all playing out in his sick ass head. to him he was the master of the universe for that time being. he was controlling life & death, smiling the entire time.
the guy is a monster. yet again evil has shown its unreal face. somehow this guy fell through the crack of life & became a scumbag, a lower form of breathing.
exactly that...u cant bit stupd..that a rule out there..you cant ..
he is a stupid fuck that he thought he is the master of his fuckin universe...
that he find guns easily play it role ofcourse.....but anyway ,he want to do bad...so he find the way no matter what..
so sad for all the people ,died,get hurt,and the families..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"Meanwhile, a federal law enforcement official provided an updated account about the gunfire inside the theater, saying that a semi-automatic assault rifle used by the shooter jammed during the attack, forcing him to switch to another weapon.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said that the jammed weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a weapon would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute."
Is there anyone that thinks something like this should be readily available? Just insane. A lot more lives would have been lost if that rifle didn't jam.
This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
"Meanwhile, a federal law enforcement official provided an updated account about the gunfire inside the theater, saying that a semi-automatic assault rifle used by the shooter jammed during the attack, forcing him to switch to another weapon.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said that the jammed weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a weapon would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute."
Is there anyone that thinks something like this should be readily available? Just insane. A lot more lives would have been lost if that rifle didn't jam.
I'm with you on this issue these types of weapons should not be available to the civilian population , i just saw Senator McCain on tv and he stated that he needs more proof that banning these weapons would of prevented this tragedy from happening :shock: :shock: ......
So by next week this will be all pretty much washed away and the convo will never focus on the banning of these weapons it will be bussines as ususl on Capitol Hill nothing will come of this these lives will have been lost for naught .........
I find it tiresome listening to talking heads in the media expressing their shock, disbelief or feelings of sympathy towards the victims. As far as I can tell, most of the sympathy expressed by these people is nothing more than thinly veiled apathy. As far as I'm concerned, sympathy is worthless if there is no effort to evoke meaningful change to reduce the likelihood of this happening again and I don't see any real desire by the American public for meaningful changes to gun laws. The families of the victims are now left to pick up the pieces while the rest of the world moves forward.
It surprises me the number of people here who do not understand mental illness
that can only look at the killer as though he was just like them, in his right mind.
And if he was in his right mind the whole time, a smiling monster, tons more would
be dead and wounded.
It's ok to hate him, if that's what you feel, how you deal.
I hate the men who terrorized the family a couple years back,
raped the women, a young daughter, killed the women,
left the dad for dead, set fire to the home.
To me that was pure evil, absolute joy in the hands on torment
and suffering of another human being. The sick satisfying sexual enjoyment
of raping a young girl. Listening to her pleads and cries, watching the
fathers hellish anguish.
Some may say I don't know this man's motives, this is true of course.
I can only conclude from my own feelings, as others have.
I have stated what I feel of this young man.
I have empathy because I know mental illness and know how next to impossible
it is to get help until after someone is hurt, either themselves or at their hands,
when that changes we will have real change.
I have heard more than one victim say they have empathy for the killer too.
Now there is an understanding heart.
What can we take from this of value? Maybe just that, a heart that is more understanding.
Even as mentally unstable he was he was still sane enough to be able to key word here PURCHASE 4 WEAPONS IN A SPAN OF 4MONTHS , don't you think if we would of had laws in place to prevent these purchases some lives could of been saved ......
Even as mentally unstable he was he was still sane enough to be able to key word here PURCHASE 4 WEAPONS IN A SPAN OF 4MONTHS , don't you think if we would of had laws in place to prevent these purchases some lives could of been saved ......
Not only weapons but automatic assault weapons. It's insane that these things are available. He never could have killed that many people without that. Make all guns available to the public bolt action. Save the assault weapons for the army.
This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
Even as mentally unstable he was he was still sane enough to be able to key word here PURCHASE 4 WEAPONS IN A SPAN OF 4MONTHS , don't you think if we would of had laws in place to prevent these purchases some lives could of been saved ......
No I do not, he would have used a different method is all.
He is not sane, not then, not when he was firing shots, not now
but many sane people collect guns, perhaps even a weapon a month,
that does not make them a danger. It is mental illness that can make a person
a danger to others.
Attack the real problem with your giant letters and make some real change.
Comments
While I agree that there are deficiencies related to dealing with mentally ill people, I take a position that the wide range of labels that we have developed explaining all types of behaviours has provided an alibi for many people who, quite frankly, should not have one: "Oh. He's depressed. That explains it. Poor guy. Things didn't go well for him and he got sad. He's the victim here. We need to help him!"
The way I see it, these are the realities regarding this situation:
1. A very weak, pathetic person could not cope anymore and barbarically shot a bunch of people. Regardless of what his motivations or the underlying reasons might have been... he is not to be pitied.
2. Guns have become 'really cool toys' for a lot of idiots. Making guns accessible to such idiots is an immense mistake of a profound nature. We have drawn the line on 'freedom' in several areas of society to preserve the safety of the public (ie. speeding limits). Why do we adhere to the notion that guns are a fundamental right when they continually prove they are very very dangerous?
3. Throughout time, people- especially men- are prone to violence. Watch how the pubs fill up tonight as we all watch and cheer as men beat the hell out of each other in the ring (let alone look at the wars we have waged and the genocides we have committed). On an individual basis, some are a little more prone to violence than others and giving them access to excellent killing tools is not very smart.
Man, I hope my kids can at least go to a show without the threat of some narcissistic moron looking to kill them because things just aren't going so great. I agree with one of the earlier posters who expressed that if things were that bad, this idiot should have just offed himself. The fact that he didn't reveals his malicious nature. Ultimately, he held others responsible for his miserable existence.
I already know your response, Pandora. Medicate the shit out of the guy, give him a few massages and a couple of fireside chats, and he'll be better. And... as a result of our noble efforts... we'll be better for it. Sheesh.
"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)
One has to balance this quotation from the lovable\loathable curmudgeon however not only against those of some of the other fathers (ie. Hamilton) but also against Adam's own penchant for outright monarchy, and his blatant sometimes-contempt for the constitution (ie. Alien & Sedition act).
If I opened it now would you not understand?
the guy is a monster. yet again evil has shown its unreal face. somehow this guy fell through the crack of life & became a scumbag, a lower form of breathing.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Nothing. The thread wasn't intended to be a gun control debate and I was quoting something I believed in. Mass death doesn't usually happen by shooting. It's too easy to say "let's ban guns" when something like this happens... but then you're not paying any attention to the real issue. The guy came unglued. HE used a gun and he intended to kill by bomb, too. This was HIS fault! HE did this, the gun was just what he chose to make it happen.
Each year in the US, there are more alcohol-related deaths than gun related ones. Where's the outcry to ban alcohol if everyone is so concerned about needless deaths?
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm/
alcoholic liver disease deaths: 15,183
Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 24,518 (can you imagine the total if accidents were included?
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
In the United States, annual firearm homicides total: 10,225 (that year had the most so I used it)
Here's an interesting tidbit about assault weapons: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html
Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes
Smiling monster.
The worst ones usually are.
I agree with your assessment of what the underlying issue really is, however I find it difficult seeing your comparison between drunk driving deaths and firearm deaths.
While I abhor drinking and driving (my best friend killed by a drunk driver), this act is fundamentally different than the act of premeditated murder using a weapon that you have loaded in advance to do your deed. I think we can agree that, with exceptions, deaths by gun are largely planned.
We might have to live with people making poor decisions when drinking. We have tried to educate people and appeal to their better judgement regarding drinking and driving, but people are stupid. Over and over again, we have proven this to be true. Regardless, we can make our society safer by restricting weapon and ammunition sales.
If sidearms and assault weapons were illegal. If rifles, shotguns, and ammunition were really expensive (because the weapon industry- having no conscience to date- were forced to pay obscene taxes to produce their goods). If people who intended on using guns in a responsible manner needed to certify and register. And people that were caught in possession of illegal firearms paid a significant legal price... can someone really think that we wouldn't have made our society safer?
Granted, this is a band aid solution to the underlying problem you alluded to. Further, it is likely knife murder statistics would spike; however, in my mind, something has to be done. It's just too damn easy right now.
So. Shouldn't it be a little harder to buy guns and/or ammunition? The fact this guy was able to buy 6,000 rounds of ammo on the internet and a little buzzer didn't go off anywhere? Who needs 6,000 rounds of ammo?
I am not a member of the NRA, I do believe people should be allowed to have some guns (with strict background checks), I own a shotgun. I wish the NRA would support reasonable gun control.
The issue you raise isn't as easy as, "Let them eat cake." Just go fix the mental health care system? This is not an easy task. Unless I am mistaken, I have heard your country has difficulties treating some of your sick children and elderly... let alone dysfunctional adults in a tax-based funded sanitarium. What becomes compromised to handle the financial tax burden such an endeavour would require... or are you suggesting increase taxes and compromise nothing?
I'd be curious to hear what you propose we do with these people? For example, how do we identify them? How do we ensure the identification process is adequate and no misidentifications occur? What does rehabilitation look like? How do we house these people? Where are they housed? How do we know when we have rehabilitated them? How do we gauge when these people are fit to be reintegrated? How do we monitor their progress after reintegration? How do we deal with relapses? This sounds like a multi-billion dollar endeavour to be run the way it might need to be run.
Don't get me wrong... the ideology is fine; however, the questions are endless and the answers are not obvious.
Drunk driving has nothing to do with violence. Neither does liver disease caused by excessive alcohol consumption.
But I see what you're saying: people die every day of all kinds of causes. Therefore, there's no problem with guns in the U.S - despite 84 people being shot and killed everyday - so let's just carry on as normal.
I can't recall where I've read it, but there was a statistic that showed people being actually more opposed to gun control since Columbine.
Surprise? I think only those who've just woken up from a coma or have been dementing over the last 12 years can have any cause to be surprised.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I won't go into the details, but it is so difficult for people to get the help they need sometimes. I will never forget a former student that desperately needed mental help and was reported numerous times for psych evaluations, from teachers to students to counselors, and because a family member said she was fine, she never received the help she needed. Some of you will think this is an isolated incident but unfortunately it seems to be the norm. Schools should have the ability to help these kids because once they leave school it is so much more difficult to help them as adults. We need to modify our system so that there are overrides when there is a real concern that someone could hurt themselves or others. You would think it is that easy to report but the system is beyond broken. We need to become a country that is willing to confront some harsh truths about ourselves and fix these issues before people get hurt instead of waiting until it is a necessity.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
dont forget to send us a postcard.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think it's fucked up that just because there is a horrific mass shooting every few years that it wouldn't still surprise someone when it happens. Someone doing that will always be shocking. People LET themselves become desensitized. It's not something that happens externally, and it's certainly not a given. I think it takes some lack of empathy to not react with shock or surprise when a person does something like that no matter how often it happens.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
way back in 1996 i heard of a massacre in port arthur. now at the time i was reading a janis joplin bio and she was from port arthur, texas... i thought oh no not again. then i heard it was port arthur, TASMANIA. and i thought WTF! tasmania??? it shocked me that this happened in my own country.. and even moreso that it happened in tasmania. im not sure how quick i wouldve jumped to theasumption the massacre was in the US had i not been reading the joplin bio. maybe i wouldve thought of our port arthur initially instead of making that assumption. anyhoo rightly or wrongly whenever news of a gun massacre breaks my thoughts immediately go to the US. it always saddens me and it frustrates me that there is hand wringing and commiseration with the victims and their families and communites and yet it seems as if nothing changes as we sit back and wait for the next massacre... its kinda like when i hear of people dying... i immediately assume cancer got them. it seems to be atypical to me that someone dies in a car wreck or some other way. what am i trying to say???? i guess what im trying to say is we will continue to expect these tragedies, and not be surprised when they do occur, so long as the types of weapons used are available to the public by whatever means.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
:-/ it's not just America that's fucked up, dude. It's people all over the world. There are a lot of bad people everywhere, and there are a lot of good people, too.
This shooting happened just a few miles from my house while I was sleeping. When I woke up to the news, was I shocked? You're goddamn right I was! It's a natural reaction, dude. Is there a tremendous amount of gun violence in America? Sadly, yes. Does that mean we should all just shrug and say, "meh, no big deal"?? Absolutely not. And I'd like to know where you saw a statistic about people being less inclined to want gun control after columbine. Unfortunately, the NRA is a powerful, powerful entity.
he is a stupid fuck that he thought he is the master of his fuckin universe...
that he find guns easily play it role ofcourse.....but anyway ,he want to do bad...so he find the way no matter what..
so sad for all the people ,died,get hurt,and the families..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said that the jammed weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a weapon would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute."
Is there anyone that thinks something like this should be readily available? Just insane. A lot more lives would have been lost if that rifle didn't jam.
I'm with you on this issue these types of weapons should not be available to the civilian population , i just saw Senator McCain on tv and he stated that he needs more proof that banning these weapons would of prevented this tragedy from happening :shock: :shock: ......
So by next week this will be all pretty much washed away and the convo will never focus on the banning of these weapons it will be bussines as ususl on Capitol Hill nothing will come of this these lives will have been lost for naught .........
I find it tiresome listening to talking heads in the media expressing their shock, disbelief or feelings of sympathy towards the victims. As far as I can tell, most of the sympathy expressed by these people is nothing more than thinly veiled apathy. As far as I'm concerned, sympathy is worthless if there is no effort to evoke meaningful change to reduce the likelihood of this happening again and I don't see any real desire by the American public for meaningful changes to gun laws. The families of the victims are now left to pick up the pieces while the rest of the world moves forward.
that can only look at the killer as though he was just like them, in his right mind.
And if he was in his right mind the whole time, a smiling monster, tons more would
be dead and wounded.
It's ok to hate him, if that's what you feel, how you deal.
I hate the men who terrorized the family a couple years back,
raped the women, a young daughter, killed the women,
left the dad for dead, set fire to the home.
To me that was pure evil, absolute joy in the hands on torment
and suffering of another human being. The sick satisfying sexual enjoyment
of raping a young girl. Listening to her pleads and cries, watching the
fathers hellish anguish.
Some may say I don't know this man's motives, this is true of course.
I can only conclude from my own feelings, as others have.
I have stated what I feel of this young man.
I have empathy because I know mental illness and know how next to impossible
it is to get help until after someone is hurt, either themselves or at their hands,
when that changes we will have real change.
I have heard more than one victim say they have empathy for the killer too.
Now there is an understanding heart.
What can we take from this of value? Maybe just that, a heart that is more understanding.
Not only weapons but automatic assault weapons. It's insane that these things are available. He never could have killed that many people without that. Make all guns available to the public bolt action. Save the assault weapons for the army.
He is not sane, not then, not when he was firing shots, not now
but many sane people collect guns, perhaps even a weapon a month,
that does not make them a danger. It is mental illness that can make a person
a danger to others.
Attack the real problem with your giant letters