Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

pandora

AndyVanSlyke wrote:

pandora wrote:

The problem is he probably would not have sought help because of the nature of the illness.

I like this point. Self-awareness is a very difficult thing to teach someone when it comes to mental health, brain injury, or other mental disorders. Especially if his sense of reality is as distorted.

**I don't know if that's what you meant when you said the nature of the illness. However, throwing my two sense on the matter.

yes this is what I meant ... your wording much better than mine

EmBleve

pandora wrote:

Why would anyone think someone in a full blown episode, a break from reality,
a schizophrenic seek help at a school counseling center.

Really?

The wouldn't, they couldn't even.
Just like Loughner ... the illness manifests as a purpose.

He will be brain tested ... hollow mask anyone

Most individuals who have a 'break from reality', have had them in the past, and have a history of mental health issues/evaluations/contact (just as cbg said as it manifests itself through fixations, delusional thoughts/behaviors). We do not know this about him yet, do we?? (maybe we do, but I don't know about it).

pandora

EmBleve wrote:

pandora wrote:

correct... I am not defending or condoning but believe in this case mental illness
is the cause, as with the Arizona tragedy. As I said I am not alone.

The problem is he probably would not have sought help because of the nature of the illness.
But family could. It is very hard to get someone mental help until they hurt themselves or others.
It is very difficult to find good help and almost always the financial expense so
absorbant that it is not even a plausible possibility.

But he will get help now just as Loughner is... after the fact.

what 'mental illness', specifically, do you surmise? Family may not have necessarily sought help, depending upon too many factors to get into now. It is not 'hard' to get someone help, or intervention... the hard part is applying the help to reality/actuality, which in many cases is difficult, if not impossible, depending on the 'nature of the illness'. But again, this is irrelevant in the discussion about this individual, who has no diagnosis at this point.
(edit: along the lines of cbg's post, there is a distinction between being a 'sociopath'--which I would say he is--and having a psychotic disorder. Many people, though, would umbrella either one under 'mentally ill', when they are very different animals).

Not hard if they have already hurt themselves or others,
not hard if they have an extra $35,000 laying around, probably more these days.
Gotta love the insurance companies and mental health benefits.

EmBleve

pandora wrote:

AndyVanSlyke wrote:

pandora wrote:

The problem is he probably would not have sought help because of the nature of the illness.

I like this point. Self-awareness is a very difficult thing to teach someone when it comes to mental health, brain injury, or other mental disorders. Especially if his sense of reality is as distorted.

**I don't know if that's what you meant when you said the nature of the illness. However, throwing my two sense on the matter.

yes this is what I meant ... your wording much better than mine

there IS no self-awareness in a psychotic person (assuming that's who you're referring to)...that's usually called insight. And, the wording is much better..just my two sense. (sorry. couldn't help myself).

g under p

pandora wrote:

g under p wrote:

Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

It is my opinion that he is not an evil person seeking personal gratification or gain,
it is my opinion he is sick.

I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
for so much pain and suffering ...
the inability to get help until after violence.

Pandora...

Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

Is this a yes to my question that you would have empathy for the shooter if he had killed your son in that movie theatre? In your opinion he has a mental illness and is NOT evil without a proper mental evaluation done at this time. I hope you have EXPERIENCED 100's of these cases in order to come up with such a quick opinionated decision.

victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

May I ask how the hell do you know this....is this ALL of the victims or just a few? Have you heard or seen interviews of the the victims to come up with yet another opinion?

I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
for so much pain and suffering ...
the inability to get help until after violence.

Again, how do you know he was trying to getting help...did you read that somewhere, was that info in a previous evaluation if so please produce such an eval. I think he was far more concern about getting his ammo, guns and setting his pre-plans for this shooting spree than ever having any thoughts of getting mental help.

So it appears what you might be saying there is that he has found relief from his apparent despair by going out planning and executing a killing spree in order to get the much needed mental help you feel he needs BEFORE a proper mental eval. That appears to be somewhat tragic and backwards but that's your opinion.

My experience in mental illness is just a short time working at Glenside Psychiatric Hospital just outside of Boston in Jamaica, Mass. I worked in all three wards locked (much more interesting and focused place to work...a place we worked on the worst psychiatric cases) unlocked ward and thevoluntary\involuntary ward. I hope you can follow up on a few of my concerns.

Peace

Pandora wrote:

How do you get from my words that he was seeking help?

I have heard his victims say they have empathy for him...
some of his victims of course not all :? and yes on TV interviews.

And no I am not saying he found relief in his actions, quite the opposite.

After working in a facility one would think you would have more knowledge
of mental illness and not apply logic to a victim of disease
who is not living in a real and logical world like the rest of us.

It appears you still haven't answered my question if this were your son would you have empathy towards the killer?

Peace

EmBleve

pandora wrote:

EmBleve wrote:

pandora wrote:

correct... I am not defending or condoning but believe in this case mental illness
is the cause, as with the Arizona tragedy. As I said I am not alone.

The problem is he probably would not have sought help because of the nature of the illness.
But family could. It is very hard to get someone mental help until they hurt themselves or others.
It is very difficult to find good help and almost always the financial expense so
absorbant that it is not even a plausible possibility.

But he will get help now just as Loughner is... after the fact.

what 'mental illness', specifically, do you surmise? Family may not have necessarily sought help, depending upon too many factors to get into now. It is not 'hard' to get someone help, or intervention... the hard part is applying the help to reality/actuality, which in many cases is difficult, if not impossible, depending on the 'nature of the illness'. But again, this is irrelevant in the discussion about this individual, who has no diagnosis at this point.
(edit: along the lines of cbg's post, there is a distinction between being a 'sociopath'--which I would say he is--and having a psychotic disorder. Many people, though, would umbrella either one under 'mentally ill', when they are very different animals).

Not hard if they have already hurt themselves or others,
not hard if they have an extra $35,000 laying around, probably more these days.
Gotta love the insurance companies and mental health benefits.

Had he already hurt himself or others?? If so, he would have a documented mental health history (or at least a criminal record). And I have no idea what $35,000 has to do with what we're talking about...not even sure what we're talking about.

comebackgirl

EmBleve wrote:

pandora wrote:

Why would anyone think someone in a full blown episode, a break from reality,
a schizophrenic seek help at a school counseling center.

Really?

The wouldn't, they couldn't even.
Just like Loughner ... the illness manifests as a purpose.

He will be brain tested ... hollow mask anyone

Most individuals who have a 'break from reality', have had them in the past, and have a history of mental health issues/evaluations/contact (just as cbg said as it manifests itself through fixations, delusional thoughts/behaviors). We do not know this about him yet, do we?? (maybe we do, but I don't know about it).

Exactly. There are typically prodromols that we look for, so we can intervene before a full blown break. That's where the BIT teams come in. Some students have enough self awareness to connect with services before they fully decompensate

hedonist

I do hope that understanding the black place this young man's acts came from can provide insight as to the why - not just for this situation but perhaps to also provide warning signs down the road for others.

But in the end, does it matter if he's mentally ill or just a sick fuck? Or some of both?

Had I lost someone in that bloodbath, I don't think it would mean anything for me to see further into his mind.

Godfather.

g under p wrote:

pandora wrote:

g under p wrote:

Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

It is my opinion that he is not an evil person seeking personal gratification or gain,
it is my opinion he is sick.

I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
for so much pain and suffering ...
the inability to get help until after violence.

Pandora...

Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

Is this a yes to my question that you would have empathy for the shooter if he had killed your son in that movie theatre? In your opinion he has a mental illness and is NOT evil without a proper mental evaluation done at this time. I hope you have EXPERIENCED 100's of these cases in order to come up with such a quick opinionated decision.

victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

May I ask how the hell do you know this....is this ALL of the victims or just a few? Have you heard or seen interviews of the the victims to come up with yet another opinion?

I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
for so much pain and suffering ...
the inability to get help until after violence.

Again, how do you know he was trying to getting help...did you read that somewhere, was that info in a previous evaluation if so please produce such an eval. I think he was far more concern about getting his ammo, guns and setting his pre-plans for this shooting spree than ever having any thoughts of getting mental help.

So it appears what you might be saying there is that he has found relief from his apparent despair by going out planning and executing a killing spree in order to get the much needed mental help you feel he needs BEFORE a proper mental eval. That appears to be somewhat tragic and backwards but that's your opinion.

My experience in mental illness is just a short time working at Glenside Psychiatric Hospital just outside of Boston in Jamaica, Mass. I worked in all three wards locked (much more interesting and focused place to work...a place we worked on the worst psychiatric cases) unlocked ward and thevoluntary\involuntary ward. I hope you can follow up on a few of my concerns.

Peace

Pandora wrote:

How do you get from my words that he was seeking help?

I have heard his victims say they have empathy for him...
some of his victims of course not all :? and yes on TV interviews.

And no I am not saying he found relief in his actions, quite the opposite.

After working in a facility one would think you would have more knowledge
of mental illness and not apply logic to a victim of disease
who is not living in a real and logical world like the rest of us.

It appears you still haven't answered my question if this were your son would you have empathy towards the killer?

Peace

a very realistic question but also cheap and over used in my opinion.

Godfather.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

Why would anyone think someone in a full blown episode, a break from reality,
a schizophrenic seek help at a school counseling center.

Really?

The wouldn't, they couldn't even.
Just like Loughner ... the illness manifests as a purpose.

He will be brain tested ... hollow mask anyone

Where should he have sought help if he needed it? The services would be available to him free of charge. No 35k needed. Schizophrenic students receive services in college counseling centers every day, whether they seek them directly before a break or the center conducts an outreach.

g under p

Godfather. wrote:

Pandora wrote:

How do you get from my words that he was seeking help?

I have heard his victims say they have empathy for him...
some of his victims of course not all :? and yes on TV interviews.

And no I am not saying he found relief in his actions, quite the opposite.

After working in a facility one would think you would have more knowledge
of mental illness and not apply logic to a victim of disease
who is not living in a real and logical world like the rest of us.

It appears you still haven't answered my question if this were your son would you have empathy towards the killer?

Peace

Godfather wrote:

a very realistic question but also cheap and over used in my opinion.

Godfather.

Thanks GF, I don't know why or how it's cheap maybe if I threw some gold in there it wouldn't be. There's reason I asked that question due what she has written past posts and there must be a reason why she appears to NOT want to answer the question when it's turned to her family. It appears she has two standards of operating procedures and I want to find out why.

Not an attack or cheap shot just to be clear...I just want to know does her strong stance still hold when it comes to her relatives. That's all since you care to appear to defend...good for you.

Peace

AzWicker

chadwick wrote:

why does a person gotta be mentally ill to do acts like this? why can't the guy be a stone cold killer?

I think they call those serial killers

Fifi_Ireland

pandora wrote:

Why would anyone think someone in a full blown episode, a break from reality,
a schizophrenic seek help at a school counseling center.

Really?

The wouldn't, they couldn't even.
Just like Loughner ... the illness manifests as a purpose.

He will be brain tested ... hollow mask anyone

I'm pretty sure someone who had a break from reality and woke up surrounded by guns and bombs might seek some form of assistance! I've never heard of someone having a 6 month long break from reality, although i will stand corrected by the experts.

AzWicker

Fifi_Ireland wrote:

AzWicker wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

What is dangerous is to state that someone is mentally ill when there is not any evidence to support that at this time.

He dyed his hair red, calls himself the joker and shot up a batman movie showing in a theater=mental illness

or he planned his defense in advance. If he really thought he was the joker he wouldnt have turned up in full combat gear and he would have painted his face!

Really, a guy who dyed his hair red, calls himself the joker and shot up a batman movie showing in a theater planned his defense in advance. Mentally ill does not mean you go free. If he had planned his defense in advance he would have fled or had someone else take the fall.

Sometimes somebody is cucu for cocopuffs.

BinauralJam

Mentally Ill or not, this guys gotta die.

AzWicker

EmBleve wrote:

pandora wrote:

correct... I am not defending or condoning but believe in this case mental illness
is the cause, as with the Arizona tragedy. As I said I am not alone.

The problem is he probably would not have sought help because of the nature of the illness.
But family could. It is very hard to get someone mental help until they hurt themselves or others.
It is very difficult to find good help and almost always the financial expense so
absorbant that it is not even a plausible possibility.

But he will get help now just as Loughner is... after the fact.

what 'mental illness', specifically, do you surmise? Family may not have necessarily sought help, depending upon too many factors to get into now. It is not 'hard' to get someone help, or intervention... the hard part is applying the help to reality/actuality, which in many cases is difficult, if not impossible, depending on the 'nature of the illness'. But again, this is irrelevant in the discussion about this individual, who has no diagnosis at this point.
(edit: along the lines of cbg's post, there is a distinction between being a 'sociopath'--which I would say he is--and having a psychotic disorder. Many people, though, would umbrella either one under 'mentally ill', when they are very different animals).

I think he has trumped sociopath into psychopath territory. That said, I am not a doctor, I just play one on the internet.

Cosmo

All of this speculation about, "He was menatlly this... or he should have done that..." is meaningless.
All that matters in 12 people are dead and several others are clinging to life becuase of THIS Man.
He has to be held responsible for what he did... even if it was his alter ego or some voice in his head. He didn't flip the switch and go berzerk... over a long period of time, he amassed a stockpile of weapons he could transport and use on people.
No one really gives a shit about someone's bullshit/baseless speculation that CANNOT be applied to this CRIMINAL. We just want him out of our free society.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

hedonist wrote:

I do hope that understanding the black place this young man's acts came from can provide insight as to the why - not just for this situation but perhaps to also provide warning signs down the road for others.

But in the end, does it matter if he's mentally ill or just a sick fuck? Or some of both?

Had I lost someone in that bloodbath, I don't think it would mean anything for me to see further into his mind.

There is value to this statement.

It's safe to say that anyone committing such a crime is mentally unstable- regardless of any medically recognized mental illness as a label that might conveniantly explain the actions for some people.

In the end, does it matter if the guy is a schizophrenic or a sociopath? Despite any underlying motivations, his actions are inexcusable.

At some point in time, we might be able to further levels of awareness for mental health. Our responsibility for the time being though- given what has happened- lies with the survivors. Part of that responsibility is dealing with this idiot. I think it is in extremely poor taste to publically empathize with this guy when so many are reeling from the magnitude of what has happened. Sorry Pandora, not that I've seen a ton of footage, but I haven't heard any survivors you claim to have heard publically pity the creep. I'm calling bullshit.

The fabric of our society is unraveling at a very rapid rate. Where are you safe if it is not even in a movie theater? If two guys want to shoot it out over a drug deal gone badly, whatever- just make sure you're accurate with your shots. When children cannot even go to the theater, or school, or the mall, or a backyard barbeque... oh man.

Small scale to large scale... we are losing our values. One of my players had a rough night last night as his grandfather was rushed to emergency- he was shoved to the ground by a group of punks when he stumbled on to a fight. His 85 year old body couldn't sustain the fall and he broke ribs and punctured his lung. Our town's a 'nice town' too. If it's happening here... well...

Who's going to be the first to chime in and say, "Well it would be nice to know what emotional problems that youth was dealing with before we judge him too harshly."

your move now

at the heart of this, is one simple face; there are mentally unstable people and there even are bad people and there always will be shouldn't it be harder for them - and anyone for that matter - to get guns?

Go Beavers

Cosmo wrote:

All of this speculation about, "He was menatlly this... or he should have done that..." is meaningless.
All that matters in 12 people are dead and several others are clinging to life becuase of THIS Man.
He has to be held responsible for what he did... even if it was his alter ego or some voice in his head. He didn't flip the switch and go berzerk... over a long period of time, he amassed a stockpile of weapons he could transport and use on people.
No one really gives a shit about someone's bullshit/baseless speculation that CANNOT be applied to this CRIMINAL. We just want him out of our free society.

What might come out of the speculation and any conclusions that can be drawn from his mental state down the road, after information is gathered, is helpful to people who want to prevent this happening in the future. These people might be in the mental health field, criminal justice field, or both. It's also natural for people to want to make some sense of such extreme behavior.