legalize drugs ?????

JonnyPistachio

g under p wrote:

Everytime down here in South Florida I see a driver, driving 20 miles or more BELOW the speed limit I yell (not at them) WHAT, ARE YOU HIGH!

Peace

Or 97 years old and unable to see over the dashboard!

peacefrompaul

JonnyPistachio wrote:

g under p wrote:

Everytime down here in South Florida I see a driver, driving 20 miles or more BELOW the speed limit I yell (not at them) WHAT, ARE YOU HIGH!

Peace

Or 97 years old and unable to see over the dashboard!

That was my experience in South Florida

pandora

keeponrockin wrote:

Make drinking and driving/smoking and driving a mandatory minimum of 5 years with no license at which point you start over with your learners permit. I don't know why we're not doing this already.

I agree but of course we can't house the violent criminals we do have...
make more giant prisons ... the answer?

pandora

g under p wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

pandora wrote:

Do we think this will be the cause and effect of more driving under the influence?
We don't need that.

Not just cars either. They are still searching, coming up on ten days, for the body of
a 13 year old in a local lake. His 9 year old brother was killed instantly when hit by
another boater DUI. It was supposed to be a peaceful watch the sunset
and moon rise with their grandfather. Now they are gone, numerous lives crumbled.

It would be nice to think pot smokers would all be responsible, nice but not realistic,
and often mixed with the effects of alcohol it is double the impact, no pun intended.

I've said it here many times....for the overwhelming majority of smokers, the impairment level after smoking is less than someone who blows a .08% blood alcohol. Maybe there is the odd person who are more impaired by MJ, but lets be real here: MJ does not result in careless decisions in the same way alcohol does. A person who is stoned to the level of physical impairment will likely be freaked the f out at the thought of driving a car....while a drunk person is more likely to say 'I'm fine to drive'. There are many, many things that distract/impair drivers more than marijuana; they reside in legal grey areas ie - only enforceable under 'distracted driving' or impaired driving laws (w/o the benefit of roadside tests).

Besides....unless you can prove that there will be a large increase in the number of people smoking because of reforms (precedents set in other countries show there would not), it would have no effect on the number of people driving impaired. The smokers who think it's ok to drive stoned are already doing so. Legalization wouldn't cause someone to decide to start driving stoned.

I'm not condoning driving while stoned, but it is largely a strawman argument against reforms.

I agree, If nothing else smoking MJ and driving appears to make one paranoid of EVERYTHING. Therefore making some not want to get behind the wheel.

Everytime down here in South Florida I see a driver, driving 20 miles or more BELOW the speed limit I yell (not at them) WHAT, ARE YOU HIGH!

Peace

Many drink and smoke pot was my point... they are no where near exclusive of each other.

catefrances

heres my thoughts....

any plant that grows as nature intended it should be able to be utilised as it is. sure there were times in my misspent youth when joints were given a punch with hash.. but most of the time we smoked weed as nature gave it life. we eat and drink so many things as nature intended so why not smoke a bowl and macrame your arse into the couch??? however...

... if you kill someone, maim someone, crash your car or do something else thats covered under the law as illegal then sure you should pay the price.. but as far as im comcerned the use and growing(for personal use) of marijuana should be, at the least, decriminalised.

i have nothing against anyone using drugs for whatever reason. what i have a problem with is dealers and traffickers.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

As I'm living my life I'm touched by events and people, I am not alone....
like the aching family and this boy lost in the water,
while his brother waits to be buried with him.
This pain and loss senseless and avoidable but for one thoughtless person's
irresponsible actions.

My opinion on legalizing weed is taking a bit of a turn.
The extremists who want to legalize all drugs, who do not see how all people
here on the earth are connected, that we are never our bodies alone,
that we have responsibility to society, to each other, to younger generations,
this by way of what we teach them, by our examples, by what is acceptable.
This has very much effected how I feel on the subject.

I believe where pot is now is a good place ... prescribed by doctors,
used in the privacy of one's home. This new Chicago law attempts to stay
within these boundaries but the effects may be quite different.

My opinion on ticketing is a cop should never come in contact with a person
under the influence because in most cases, with too high of a probability
for me, they are because the smoker is behind the wheel.
More will choose to drive thinking ticket alone. And we see, this is after the fact,
often after a tragedy.

The thing about both alcohol and pot it removes good common sense and effects
good decision making for many people. It is all about fun
but we see how fun turns tragic too often and hindsight is 20/20.

This conservative thinking comes to some with age. It comes from seeing the young
die, seeing their families living hell. I personally want to be careful that the law
continues to discourage use and protects those who are bound to act
irresponsibly in the name of fun.

people die in accidents and they are definitely tragedies.

What about the thousands of people who die in other countries and our own simply because these drugs are illegal? Who is more important to you?

...social conservatism is simply a much different form of progressive behavior, and the reason why conservatives always sound like hypocrites

This sounds a bit biased :?

I care if someone is an addict even if they don't. I want to teach future generations
not to use drugs, not legalize all drugs with the huge message that they are ok to use.
There is no way around that. That is the message and it will increase use.
The world is sad enough without more lost souls. This is what drugs do, they take
the soul of healthy productive people, ruin families, hurt business, divide instead
of bring people together. Ludicrous the idea to throw more lives away to this junk
by saying society supports the use of drugs.

It is not an accident when one is high and drunk behind the wheel, or driving a boat,
it is a tragedy but no accident.

catefrances

i prefer people to be responsible. i have no desire to preach to them about what they should do with their lives in regards to drug usage(if i did id be a hypocrite). if they want to use drugs then thats their call not mine... however they need to be responsible for any actions that result from that use.

pandora

hmmm yes the guy who killed the two young boys boating with their grandfather
yes he is responsible. Big fucking deal...

that is after the fact when so many lives are ruined.

This why we have laws to protect the innocent, not preach, protect, to
try to teach, not preach to those who may be irresponsible and all about fun at the
expense of others lives.

catefrances

lives get ruined all the fucking time irregardless of whether by actions illegal or legal. is this reason enough to allow some things to slide? perhaps...perhaps not. but the law is blanket and not especially giving nor flexible. should every case be decided on its individual merits or folloe what 'society' has decided 'necessary' ??? i think so. we are all individuals so why should the law not reflect that??

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

As I'm living my life I'm touched by events and people, I am not alone....
like the aching family and this boy lost in the water,
while his brother waits to be buried with him.
This pain and loss senseless and avoidable but for one thoughtless person's
irresponsible actions.

My opinion on legalizing weed is taking a bit of a turn.
The extremists who want to legalize all drugs, who do not see how all people
here on the earth are connected, that we are never our bodies alone,
that we have responsibility to society, to each other, to younger generations,
this by way of what we teach them, by our examples, by what is acceptable.
This has very much effected how I feel on the subject.

I believe where pot is now is a good place ... prescribed by doctors,
used in the privacy of one's home. This new Chicago law attempts to stay
within these boundaries but the effects may be quite different.

My opinion on ticketing is a cop should never come in contact with a person
under the influence because in most cases, with too high of a probability
for me, they are because the smoker is behind the wheel.
More will choose to drive thinking ticket alone. And we see, this is after the fact,
often after a tragedy.

The thing about both alcohol and pot it removes good common sense and effects
good decision making for many people. It is all about fun
but we see how fun turns tragic too often and hindsight is 20/20.

This conservative thinking comes to some with age. It comes from seeing the young
die, seeing their families living hell. I personally want to be careful that the law
continues to discourage use and protects those who are bound to act
irresponsibly in the name of fun.

people die in accidents and they are definitely tragedies.

What about the thousands of people who die in other countries and our own simply because these drugs are illegal? Who is more important to you?

...social conservatism is simply a much different form of progressive behavior, and the reason why conservatives always sound like hypocrites

This sounds a bit biased :?

I care if someone is an addict even if they don't. I want to teach future generations
not to use drugs, not legalize all drugs with the huge message that they are ok to use.
There is no way around that. That is the message and it will increase use.
The world is sad enough without more lost souls. This is what drugs do, they take
the soul of healthy productive people, ruin families, hurt business, divide instead
of bring people together. Ludicrous the idea to throw more lives away to this junk
by saying society supports the use of drugs.

It is not an accident when one is high and drunk behind the wheel, or driving a boat,
it is a tragedy but no accident.

Is it a bias when it proves to be true time and again. Social conservatives say, I want the gov't out of my personal life...they also say, I want the government to put limits on other people's personal lives. By definition alone that is hypocrisy, but I know that definitions don't mean much.

So you have decided then...a few more drug addicts in the US are worth more to you than the thousands and thousands and thousands that die and end up in prison for 20 years because the drugs are illegal. good to know where you stand.

But it is all for the children

The government isn't society

catefrances

mikepegg44 wrote:

The government isn't society

and its high time society realised that and acted accordingly.. cause fuck knows the govt isnt.

hedonist

catefrances wrote:

i prefer people to be responsible. i have no desire to preach to them about what they should do with their lives in regards to drug usage(if i did id be a hypocrite). if they want to use drugs then thats their call not mine... however they need to be responsible for any actions that result from that use.

Much agree with this.

And this? -

"so why not smoke a bowl and macrame your arse into the couch???"

Love it! Part of my weekend plan

peacefrompaul

hedonist wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i prefer people to be responsible. i have no desire to preach to them about what they should do with their lives in regards to drug usage(if i did id be a hypocrite). if they want to use drugs then thats their call not mine... however they need to be responsible for any actions that result from that use.

Much agree with this.

And this? -

"so why not smoke a bowl and macrame your arse into the couch???"

Love it! Part of my weekend plan

Hey! Great minds think alike!

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

Is it a bias when it proves to be true time and again. Social conservatives say, I want the gov't out of my personal life...they also say, I want the government to put limits on other people's personal lives. By definition alone that is hypocrisy, but I know that definitions don't mean much.

So you have decided then...a few more drug addicts in the US are worth more to you than the thousands and thousands and thousands that die and end up in prison for 20 years because the drugs are illegal. good to know where you stand.

But it is all for the children

The government isn't society

Where I stand...
Life is important to me. Children are important to me. A healthy young person falling prey
to a parasite drug dealer and getting hooked and turning into a zombie
is important to me. That life and all the lives that touch that one child are important to me.

Laws are made by you and I. We call upon our representatives, like now,
in the death of these two young boys who lost their lives on a local lake,
to make changes to protect the innocent.

To help make those who are irresponsible aware hopefully before tragedy hits.

We are society, we are connected all together in our actions and reactions.
We do not stand alone.
There are no limits I am suggesting on others lives except that which will endanger another.
Allowing all drugs to be legal will endanger our children. It will endanger society.
It sends the message that the use of hard drugs is acceptable.
That is not the right message.

pandora

For those who say they prefer people to be responsible :wtf:

We would all love a world where everyone was responsible, their actions not for themselves
but for the regard of others. How many live their lives like that?

We are so far from that I'm not sure how anyone can even make a statement
like that. I guess one can keep wishing or one can get real.

Drowned Out

pandora wrote:

As I'm living my life I'm touched by events and people, I am not alone....
like the aching family and this boy lost in the water,
while his brother waits to be buried with him.
This pain and loss senseless and avoidable but for one thoughtless person's
irresponsible actions.

phew! here I thought it might have had something to do with being ultra-contrarian....but hey, youre entitled to an evolving opinion

pandora wrote:

My opinion on legalizing weed is taking a bit of a turn.
The extremists who want to legalize all drugs, who do not see how all people
here on the earth are connected, that we are never our bodies alone,
that we have responsibility to society, to each other, to younger generations,
this by way of what we teach them, by our examples, by what is acceptable.
This has very much effected how I feel on the subject.

Some would say that a responsible society wouldn't take our young, poor, and minority peoples and lock them up, burden them with a criminal record and/or legal fees, deprive them of an education, and confiscate their property to punish non-violent, and victimless crimes.

pandora wrote:

believe where pot is now is a good place ... prescribed by doctors,
used in the privacy of one's home. This new Chicago law attempts to stay
within these boundaries but the effects may be quite different.

Do you have any way of supporting this position or is it just a hunch?
Do you really think the stat BinauralJam posted earlier: "the U.S.A. has 5% of the world population and 25% of the world prisoners", is acceptable? As of 2004 - of those prisoners, over 50% of federal, and nearly a quarter of state prisoners are in jail for drug offenses. Broken down further - nearly 13% of ALL prisoners are in jail for MJ related offenses alone. That's nearly 50,000 people serving time for a plant that year, and the rates have since increased. This is not indicative of a 'good place'. You also contradict yourself later in the thread by admitting you already can't house violent offenders....yet you support jailing marijuana users. makes no sense.

pandora wrote:

My opinion on ticketing is a cop should never come in contact with a person
under the influence because in most cases, with too high of a probability
for me, they are because the smoker is behind the wheel.
More will choose to drive thinking ticket alone. And we see, this is after the fact,
often after a tragedy..

You can't make statements of fact with the disclaimer 'for me'. It either is or isn't true, this doesn't change for you. Yes, a lot of MJ arrests probably occur in traffic stops. But unless you can show me that there will be a big spike in use (as I said in my last post, precedents set in other countries show otherwise), saying more people will drive stoned doesn't hold water. As for people choosing to drive because it's only a ticket....another hunch. People who are responsible about impaired driving won't change their minds based on the law. Those who aren't responsible won't either. Drug laws are not deterrents to use or behaviour, we've been proving this for nearly half a century now......

pandora wrote:

The thing about both alcohol and pot it removes good common sense and effects
good decision making for many people. It is all about fun
but we see how fun turns tragic too often and hindsight is 20/20.

This conservative thinking comes to some with age. It comes from seeing the young
die, seeing their families living hell. I personally want to be careful that the law
continues to discourage use and protects those who are bound to act
irresponsibly in the name of fun.

I would think that most people with experience with both MJ and alcohol would disagree with anyone lumping their effects on decision making together. MJ tends to make most people analytical, cautious, and borderline paranoid. Alcohol makes people reckless, careless, and way too brave.
As I mentioned earlier - drug laws do not deter use or behaviour...but education does. Anyone supporting reduced use should support drug war funding going to educators instead of the for-profit prison system.
I find the 'conservatism comes with age' statement pretty condescending....as if we just can't see the wisdom in your statements cause we're not old enough yet.

brianlux

pandora wrote:

For those who say they prefer people to be responsible :wtf:

We would all love a world where everyone was responsible, their actions not for themselves
but for the regard of others. How many live their lives like that?

We are so far from that I'm not sure how anyone can even make a statement
like that. I guess one can keep wishing or one can get real.

Pandora, the fact is there will always be drugs. There will always be junkies and coke sniffers and glue sniffers and potheads and alcoholics. That being the case (we do agree on that, right?) doesn't it make sense to stop wasting time and money trying to eliminate drugs and spend more time teaching people to be responsible about either not doing drugs or doing them safely? That seems more real than wishful to me. Trying to eliminate drugs? That's purely make believe.

Drowned Out

pandora wrote:

It sends the message that the use of hard drugs is acceptable.
That is not the right message.

pandora wrote:

I care if someone is an addict even if they don't. I want to teach future generations
not to use drugs, not legalize all drugs with the huge message that they are ok to use.
There is no way around that. That is the message and it will increase use.
Ludicrous the idea to throw more lives away to this junk
by saying society supports the use of drugs.

You can keep repeating these lies all you want, it doesn't make them true.
There is no science behind your increased use theory, only an incorrect opinion.
And your opinion of what message is sent by leglization is also misguided. The focus in that scenario will be on harm reduction, rehabilitation, and education. How does that not make sense? :crazy: It doesn't say it's ok. It says 'we will help you, not throw you in jail and destroy any hope for a successful future'. But it seems you think punishment is the only way to get thru to an addict.

pandora wrote:

hmmm yes the guy who killed the two young boys boating with their grandfather
yes he is responsible. Big fucking deal...

that is after the fact when so many lives are ruined.

This why we have laws to protect the innocent, not preach, protect, to
try to teach, not preach to those who may be irresponsible and all about fun at the
expense of others lives.

why are you not campaigning for alcohol prohibition, pandora? If you're concerned about impaired driving, and support prohibition of MJ to prevent it.....it's a slam dunk that you'd want to outlaw alcohol, right?

Drowned Out

brianlux wrote:

pandora wrote:

For those who say they prefer people to be responsible :wtf:

We would all love a world where everyone was responsible, their actions not for themselves
but for the regard of others. How many live their lives like that?

We are so far from that I'm not sure how anyone can even make a statement
like that. I guess one can keep wishing or one can get real.

Pandora, the fact is there will always be drugs. There will always be junkies and coke sniffers and glue sniffers and potheads and alcoholics. That being the case (we do agree on that, right?) doesn't it make sense to stop wasting time and money trying to eliminate drugs and spend more time teaching people to be responsible about either not doing drugs or doing them safely? That seems more real than wishful to me. Trying to eliminate drugs? That's purely make believe.

exactly.....telling people to 'get real', while simultaneously suggesting that prohibition has a positive effect on eliminating drugs? hmmmm

peacefrompaul

pandora wrote:

For those who say they prefer people to be responsible :wtf:

We would all love a world where everyone was responsible, their actions not for themselves
but for the regard of others. How many live their lives like that?

We are so far from that I'm not sure how anyone can even make a statement
like that. I guess one can keep wishing or one can get real.

So you argue that more government legislation is the answer? The wise sages of the government know how to live responsibly?