legalize drugs ?????
Godfather.
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Godfather.
Posts: 12,504
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Treatment, not punishment.
How many treatment and education centers/programs could you build/fund for $50 billion a year?
I define easy as going down to a local and legal store. I define hard as making numerous calls, finding contacts and possible risking my freedom or job to make a purchase. I have friends that smoke and they couldn't get anything harder without a real effort.
I know people that won't smoke weed because it's illegal and could cost them their job, but they will go smoke K2 / Spice because they can buy it at the local tobacco shop ... and who knows what is in that shit.
I'm not talking about making it legal to get high at work either, so that wouldn't change, would it?
Godfather.
really ????
Godfather.
(FYI they use acetone on tobacco to enhance the effects of the nicotine...)
Alot of people use it because Marijuana is illegal. At least, removing the stigma from hemp period would help in places where it could be used in an industrial manner which in part could help save our ecology. Legalizing marijuana for medicinal purposes would be a bonus.
PS: Drug Wars are a waste of money. Just like any war like I said they play both sides.
Here we see Nancy Reagan speaking from her crypt.
The last time this made "sense" was 2000 years ago in Old Testament times (lol).
You don't tell someone what they should or should not consumer,
and you do not enact criminal penalties against them for it, either.
You have no idea how much butter I should or should not consume,
neither have you any idea how much pot, blow, opium, MDMA, lsd, mushrooms, or DMT i should or should not consume.
There is NO difference between BUTTER and DRUGS.
We need laws to stop people from killing themselves with drugs,
like we need laws to stop people from killing themselves with their food addictions and poor diet.
All we need is well regulated, pure alternatives to bad street drugs and their toxic culture.
And we need THE AVAILABILITY of compassionate CARE (rehabilitation, clinics, etc) ...
NO ONE needs (and most will not accept or be successful with) FORCED CARE.
The article's dubious self-defeating logic is so glaring it hurts.
If what we need is more mothers like Whitney Houston's, who GOT COURT ORDERED TREATMENT, then why is her poor daughter dead?
People have drug problems for most of the same reasons they have other severely debilitating \ self-limiting life problems -- they stem from having a lack of self-worth, lack of positive roll-models, lack of unconditional love in their lives, lack of support structure.
The ONLY grounds used to justify the War on Drugs is essentially the notion that such a fight HELPS TO IMPROVE THE SOCIAL ORDER (it makes "bad people" - drug addicts & drug dealers - in to "better" people, or keeps them away from "better" people entirely -- in jail).
If you want to improve the social order there are plenty of BENEVOLENT ways to do that.
You don't have to RUIN lives for the sake of "saving" them.
When a drug dealer CAN NOT compete ...
he WILL NOT compete.
When a drug abuser HAS AN ALTERNATIVE,
he MAY (OR MAY NOT) ***CHOOSE*** THAT ALTERNATIVE.
Even if you DO legislate a "choice" for him (ie. court mandated treatment) ... he may (and probably will) NOT accept it.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Alcohol is a drug like the rest of them.
My brother says to me the other day. I would have never known what drugs were at all and most likely wouldnt have been curious to try them if D.A.R.E. hadnt come to the classroom.
Really.
non-violent drug offenders should not be in federal or state prison.
decriminalize or legalize drugs and you remove the back alley aspect.
but ultimately if someone chooses to harm themselves, I don't think it should be illegal to do so. if they choose to harm others...than by all means go crazy.
If the government have the dollars for treatment that we spend on losing the drug war...we would have already saved more lives than it would have cost us.
the stats on Portugal are obviously debatable. one of the highest homicide rates is that drug related homicides or homicides in total...maybe the Portuguese are hot heads
I know you are dead set against it, but it isn't the feds job to protect us from ourselves...it is ours. it is there job to protect me from you, and you from me...when those lines are crossed there is a price to pay...just like with Alcohol
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
just hang around behind your local middle/high school..seems to be no problems there
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Agreed. It isn't the Governments job to tell me what I can and can't do to MY body. It's MY body... I can't justify spending billions of dollars on a drug war.
a REAL addict..yes...
yes i have...its no picnic
its heartbreaking and there is nothing that you or i can do about that specific person
only they can change it...and have to want it really bad...cuz its not easy..not easy..most people probably can't even come close to comprehending what its like to be (or live with) a real junkie
that being said..i can't believe the ignorance of the statements that legalizing marijuana has led to so much increase in other drug addictions and human trafficking etc.....makes no sense.... smoking pot just makes you too damned lazy to engage in much of that other nonsense
i think that is a bunch of propaganda on the part of those who want to keep it illegal...consider:
have you ever considered that maybe those who would have marijuana remain illegal are precisely those who are making a crapload of money off of the whole thing? its not the penny-ante pot dealer down the street, he gets it from someone, who gets it from someone who gets it from someone else who gets it from a well oiled organization (unless he's got a plot in the field behind his house, that is) and that well-oiled organization is running the show peeps..its not the pot smoking that's the problem, it IS the fact that it is illegal that allows all the nasty nasties to go on ...really nasties
anyway....i may be getting slightly off topic here...but i just have to say that i don't believe that the issue for legalizing pot should have any impact whatsoever on the argument for or against other, harder, "addictive" drugs...they are not one in the same..one does not lead to the other..buying pot (simply because you have to go to your friendly local dealer) may expose you to people to have access to other drugs, but drinking beer also exposes you to free and open access to any other alcoholic beverage up to and including grain alcohol..which will kill you just fine, thank you very much..and yes, alcoholism is a terrible disease...but you see my point, right? just because you or i might enjoy a frosty brew after work doesn't make alcoholics, same as if you or i choose to smoke a bowl instead...not a junkie..not a drug addict. see?
example of money running the show... and you all know this....cigarettes contain nicotine and other highly addictive agents...but they are legal and available precisely because "the someones" who matter are making an obscene amount of money off of marketing them..they know they're bad for you...addictive..cancer causing...horrible..but no problem... cuz what's important is making money, which equates to power in our society ... they make the rules according to their priorities (and that is certainly true..tobacco lobbyists, right?) and those that want to take advantage of the influence that power controls, will follow at every turn
AND NO LAW ..one way or the other, has, or is ever going to, stop those who are determined to gain pleasure from one substance or another...never.
am i wrong?
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I'm in!
(will check the original article later)
do you believe in "the gateway" ?
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
who's going to protect you from the drug addict that wants to hurt you or worse for the $30 you got in your pocket ? (and they will..and do) and has booze been kept out of the back alley ? I'm telling ya Mike what you guys are asking for is a hell of a lot more than most people and their familys of 2.3 kids will be able to deal with, and drugs have a far different effect on the mind then booze like say meth or cocaine, most drunks can be controled but you start dealing with a waco strung out on meth and chances are he/she can and will be a great danger,so this bull crap these guys are saying drugs and booze are the same thing really have no idea what they're talking about.
Godfather.
Godfather.
The sister of a good friend of mine died last year of a drug overdose. You could see it coming, but there was just no stopping it. The inevitable call came early one morning and my friend had to go and identify the body of her 27-year-old little sister. I would never say this to her, but the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is how much calmer and peaceful my friend's life is now. I will not say her life is better—ever, but it has changed. My friend was also my co-worker and much of her work day was spent tracking down her sister—whether she was in jail or her treatment centre or whether she had been kicked out of rehab or left willingly, whether she had eaten, how much money she had taken from their mom and if their mom now had enough to pay her rent.... etc, etc, etc.
Somewhere along the way, Ash made some bad decisions (as we all have) and her decisions led her down a road that got darker and narrower. She's no more or less at fault than I am for some of the bad decisions I've made. My consequences were just not as severe---I may still be paying, but I'm also still alive.
I don't think whether drugs are illegal or legal has much to do with whether people go down that road or not. There are just so many other factors, including personality and history, and events that lead to those decisions and that point.
The battle to try and eradicate drugs is pointless. I think education and compassionate care would be money better spent, although I still don't think this would be a solution on its own.
And I also agree with Stillhere that pot is something totally different.... however, where I am, if you're going to buy pot you either buy straight from the local grower or from a person one link away from the grower. I'm not sure I'd smoke it if I knew it was coming from some big organized crime ring.
Sorry, that was way longer that I intended.... and I'm not even sure I made a point it all that. Just wanted to contribute to the conversation.
sorry to hear all of that
my daughter in law's twin brother is a heroin addict
and my DIL is constantly in a state of stress wondering about his safety
its sad to say but the times when she feels most secure about him are when he's gotten arrested and is in jail
cuz even rehab doesn't do him for long
:( sad thing
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Of course I believe in the gateway. Gateway of the Mind.
Muwhahahahaha . Just Kidding on the evil laugh.
[img][/img]http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webca ... imated.gif
just for another view since this person talked about portugal
I watched my good bro's kid's throw a hanf full of dirt on his cascett while they cried.
another got shot through the heart and it came out the top of his head because he was strung out and pointing a gun at people(paranoid) so a cop shot him right then and there.
I'v been there and done and seen it you guys may not know what you are asking for when you want to legalize drugs.
I could go on with a few more experiances in my life that have taken lives due to drugs but you guys wouldn't see the reality of it till it happens to you,
Godfather.
First, I guarantee I've devoted exponentially more time to this topic than you or the other poster who threw this at me....prohibition, it's roots, and drug law reform got me interested in politics in the first place, and still remains my 'pet cause'. I'm actively involved in the 'fight', I follow developments closely, read as much as possible about it, and count some full-time, well known activists/politicians as close friends. I don't say this to toot my horn, just to tell you that I'm not shooting from the hip here...
Next...I normally don't like discussing my personal life here...but in this case I think it's important that you understand where I'm coming from.
The first woman I ever loved died in her sleep of a drug overdose in 1998. Her friends, who may have had 'drug education' from the standpoint of 'just say no', or DARE, but not from the standpoint of HARM REDUCTION, decided that when she started losing consciousness, she just needed to 'sleep it off', and put her to bed. (*hint - if anyone high on hard drugs starts passing out, do NOT put them to bed!)
My best friend thru high school killed himself in 2001 after fighting drug addiction and mental illness for years and not being able to shake it.
My ex-wife, and mother of my kids, developed a coke addiction over the past couple of years (after our divorce), while attempting to cope with the loss of both her mom (52) and best friend (32) from cancer (within months of each other), and depression that had been a part of her life since losing her dad as a kid. The main reason she is alive, still seeing her kids, and still a functioning member of society, is because she was lucky enough to work for a company/union that provided long-term disability to addicts, support programs to help keep her in treatment, and had support from loved ones.
See the difference in the outcome of these three scenarios? Treatment, and education. prohibition did NOTHING for the first two. They failed themselves, yes, but the system that is supposedly set up to prevent drug abuse failed them miserably as well.
So don't you dare try to suggest that this is something people are out of touch with reality about if they support drug law reform...I'm sure every fucking person reading this has been touched by addiction at some point in their lives. Unfortunately, people automatically fall back on what they're told about drugs as soon as it touches them....and for the most part, what we've been told about drugs, esp since ol' mother Reagan got involved, only helps the businesses and government agencies doing the 'telling'. Ive found that most people change their tune once they stop to think about it, and get access to other opinions.
Another point I'd like to make....
Prohibition laws are used to 'save people from themselves'....yet it has done very little to prevent the flow of drugs (in fact, drug availability has increased steadily thru the decades of the war on SOME drugs). So... the logic is that we are trying to prevent people who are not currently using drugs from trying them because they're more readily available (which, knowing that they're MORE available partly DUE to prohibition, is a flawed premise)...That logic is flawed when you think it thru to it's outcomes. Not only is there data to suggest that decrim/legalization does NOT increase use (contradicting what this POS CNN op-ed says), but THE VAST MAJORITY of people who use drugs recreationally (yes, even hard drugs),do so without it ever becoming a problem, or serious addiction. They get some blow, MDMA, acid, whatever, on a weekend, feel like shit the next day, get up and go to work on monday. So....lets compare....Take the number of people trying drugs just because they're legal (likely a small number since it's already readily available, and arrest is not an effective deterrent), then factor in the relatively small percentage of THOSE people who become addicted or overdose....And contrast that figure with the number of hard working, tax-paying, recreational users - people with families and careers, whose lives have been destroyed by prohibition laws. It makes NO fucking sense at ALL.
We're destroying the lives of many to save the lives of a few. And that's without touching on the personal freedom argument, nor the big govt vs small govt argument.
My post was sort of lacking a point, I realize this. I wasn't necessarily meaning that I think all drugs should be legalized—who I am to say? I just meant that I don't know if having them illegal or legal or decriminalized (a term that floats around often here in BC) would make much of a difference. If people are going to go down that road, they're going to go down that road. Drugs are illegal now and people take the risk to get what they need. If all drugs were suddenly legal, I wouldn't suddenly go running to score some coke or crack. I don't know that legalizing would improve or worsen the situation (at least not in the long term)... there seems to be so much more involved than just the legal status.
I think some interesting points were made by Drowned Out. Gives me something to think about anyway. Sorry you've both had to see the devastation that goes along with addiction.