and yep I do think bath salts should be available. I also wonder if people would turn to bath salts if a bag of weed or coke was sitting right next to it at the same gas station?...I also think that everyone who uses bath salts gets high and tries to eat people. I see thousands of those cases a day. Since I believe people should be able to use bath salts, Robitussin, or whatever else they want to get high, that has to mean that not only do I support such behavior I actually encourage it. If people want to kill themselves by all means go nuts. The bath salt epidemic reminds me of the PCP scare...helen hunt jumping out a window anyone?
47000 deaths in mexico alone in drug related violence since 2006. That doesn't count Colombia. But that doesn't matter. Those people aren't defended here, it is the people who od on their own volition in the US that matter. By the way, those numbers are probably low as the different states in mexico have a hard time gathering consistent data. That doesn't include Colombia or any other latin american country.
Your argument against the drug war is based in morality, I pointed out that it is morally selective in its nature of who you believe to be more important. in other words, it is morally inconsistent. I don't use a moral argument for the ending of the drug war personally. I can point out statistics and all sorts of negatives associated with it, but ultimately the people involved in it are choosing to do so. They do so at their own risk...just like drug users. I just wanted to point out to you that caring about some deaths over others is strange.
Personally, I just think it is bad policy if one wants to truly end drug use and fiscally irresponsible to continue to fight a war with no hope of ever winning. Spend half of it on treatment and save the other half...or if you have to spend it...spend it on enforcing victim crimes.
No my opinion is based in logic. If we legalize all drugs, we as a society
are sending the message we condone the use, you a perfect example of just this.
You yourself condone the use as bolded in red.
This with your I don't care attitude for the children who try drugs.
They are as innocent as those dying across the world.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
There is no responsible use of highly addictive hard drugs. Use will escalate, use will kill.
Use will hurt our country.
The fact that you encourage others to use drugs you are also supporting
the killing of those caught in the drug war and those dying using drugs.
You are selectively "writing off" those who use drugs without
the consideration for life. And all the lives effected by another's hard drug use.
You are morally selective, choosing to only feel for those caught in violence.
Yet it appears you could care less about the violence
that would come from legalizing all drugs, just in the example of bath salts alone,
which is legal and you are fine with :wtf: ....
My book ... one cannibal is one cannibal too many :fp:
From your words here your high horse is .... if you are dumb enough to use ... die then,
to me that callous is morally wrong and ridiculous because no one dies alone.
Someone innocent is aways hurt...
everyone is someone's child and much more...
Every life is valuable, our choices not ours alone.
This the purpose of life, the connection of life.
No my opinion is based in logic. If we legalize all drugs, we as a society
are sending the message we condone the use, you a perfect example of just this.
You yourself condone the use as bolded in red.
This with your I don't care attitude for the children who try drugs.
They are as innocent as those dying across the world.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
The fact that you encourage others to use drugs you are also supporting
the killing of those caught in the drug war and those dying using drugs.
You are selectively "writing off" those who use drugs without
the consideration for life. And all the lives effected by another's hard drug use.
You are morally selective, choosing to only feel for those caught in violence.
Yet it appears you could care less about the violence
that would come from legalizing all drugs, just in the example of bath salts alone,
which is legal and you are fine with :wtf: ....
My book ... one cannibal is one cannibal too many :fp:
From your words here your high horse is .... if you are dumb enough to use ... die then,
to me that callous is morally wrong and ridiculous because no one dies alone.
Someone innocent is aways hurt...
everyone is someone's child and much more...
Every life is valuable, our choices not ours alone.
This the purpose of life, the connection of life.
For the bazillionth time…..NO….this does NOT send that message. Again, this is not just an opinion, it’s a flat out lie. I know you pretend you don’t read my posts because you have me ‘foe’d’, but you do reply indirectly on occasion….So let me explain this to you again: shifting funding to treatment and education instead of law enforcement, the courts, and incarceration, tells people that we CARE about them, and won’t just lock them up and forget about them.
HOW DOES IT SEND A MESSAGE THAT DRUGS ARE OK IF YOU ARE SHIFTING FUNDING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE DANGERS OF USE??????
You say yourself that these people don’t even understand the consequence of their actions until they’re 25 (a generalization, but let’s go with it)….if that’s the case, then WHY should they be locked up for it, if they don’t even understand what they’ve done? Why not educate them and HELP them, if being caring and loving is what you advocate?
There is no responsible use of highly addictive hard drugs. Use will escalate, use will kill.
Use will hurt our country.
I suppose one could argue that ANY use is irresponsible since it is, generally speaking, unhealthy to use any psychoactive drug for recreational purpose....but...you could say that about dozens of things we ingest daily. If you're suggesting that no one can use drugs recreationally without use escalating, and dying....you're lying....again. I would wager that on any given Saturday night, 10-15% of the patrons of any night club you visit, in any westernized city, is high on some kind of 'hard' drug. Yet they manage to get up and go to work on Monday and nothing changes. No victims, no destroyed families, no sobbing mothers, no craving for more 'killer' drugs. Your histrionics are exhausting.
and yep I do think bath salts should be available. I also wonder if people would turn to bath salts if a bag of weed or coke was sitting right next to it at the same gas station?...I also think that everyone who uses bath salts gets high and tries to eat people. I see thousands of those cases a day. Since I believe people should be able to use bath salts, Robitussin, or whatever else they want to get high, that has to mean that not only do I support such behavior I actually encourage it. If people want to kill themselves by all means go nuts. The bath salt epidemic reminds me of the PCP scare...helen hunt jumping out a window anyone?
47000 deaths in mexico alone in drug related violence since 2006. That doesn't count Colombia. But that doesn't matter. Those people aren't defended here, it is the people who od on their own volition in the US that matter. By the way, those numbers are probably low as the different states in mexico have a hard time gathering consistent data. That doesn't include Colombia or any other latin american country.
Your argument against the drug war is based in morality, I pointed out that it is morally selective in its nature of who you believe to be more important. in other words, it is morally inconsistent. I don't use a moral argument for the ending of the drug war personally. I can point out statistics and all sorts of negatives associated with it, but ultimately the people involved in it are choosing to do so. They do so at their own risk...just like drug users. I just wanted to point out to you that caring about some deaths over others is strange.
Personally, I just think it is bad policy if one wants to truly end drug use and fiscally irresponsible to continue to fight a war with no hope of ever winning. Spend half of it on treatment and save the other half...or if you have to spend it...spend it on enforcing victim crimes.
No my opinion is based in logic. If we legalize all drugs, we as a society
are sending the message we condone the use, you a perfect example of just this.
You yourself condone the use as bolded in red.
This with your I don't care attitude for the children who try drugs.
They are as innocent as those dying across the world.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
There is no responsible use of highly addictive hard drugs. Use will escalate, use will kill.
Use will hurt our country.
The fact that you encourage others to use drugs you are also supporting
the killing of those caught in the drug war and those dying using drugs.
You are selectively "writing off" those who use drugs without
the consideration for life. And all the lives effected by another's hard drug use.
You are morally selective, choosing to only feel for those caught in violence.
Yet it appears you could care less about the violence
that would come from legalizing all drugs, just in the example of bath salts alone,
which is legal and you are fine with :wtf: ....
My book ... one cannibal is one cannibal too many :fp:
From your words here your high horse is .... if you are dumb enough to use ... die then,
to me that callous is morally wrong and ridiculous because no one dies alone.
Someone innocent is aways hurt...
everyone is someone's child and much more...
Every life is valuable, our choices not ours alone.
This the purpose of life, the connection of life.
sorry, didn't realize you could read sarcasm. I will always put from now on.
I care more about people than you will ever know. I also trust them a lot more than you do. I have a higher opinion of our ability to choose given the education to make the choice. I work in public health. I work with the homeless, I work with the poor ... don't tell me I don't care. I could make twice as much doing what I do in the private sector, and will eventually end up there if what I want government to be actually happens. Until then what I have chosen to do in life has led me to the conclusion that our whole world view on drugs needs to change as a country if we truly want to help and care about people.
Right now the money spent on the drug war would be better used simply giving it to the cartels to not produce. Kind of a like a drug CRP program.
Treatment and education will do more to stop people from using than illegality and force. But someone who thinks that people need to be coerced and forced into behavior wouldn't think that way.
By the way, I hear stories every day at work from people who used drugs, use drugs...they are heartbreaking...but have you ever heard the phrase "won't quit until they want to"...force isn't going to do it.
Punish crimes committed on drugs more than if they weren't high...but don't punish the simple act of getting high...People like you are the reason that drug crimes are still an issue. People who cannot separate wanting people off drugs from keeping them illegal and hidden in the shadows...WHAT ASPECT OF THE DRUG WAR IS WORKING?
Do you have any evidence to support the theory that more people would start using if they were legal? Would you do heroin if it were legal? me either. Real evidence? The only place where I have seen drugs decriminalized it actually went down after an initial spike. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nalization
I want legalization so business can benefit, farmers can benefit, and the consumer can benefit, but I would settle for simply decriminalization.
But keep up the moral outrage, keep saying that people who think a new way of treating drug use might work better and have more upside than down are against kids...It is a very convincing argument unfortunately
sometimes I just have to shake my head at the unwillingness to look at it a different way. I have looked at if the way it has been done for decades...can't we try the other way for a few minutes?
but you don't care, to you there is no better way than what we are doing apparently. It's all about the kids right?
which part of this post will you ignore? the part where I showed you statistics of less death due to drugs and illness related to drugs, or the part where I told you I work with people affected by drug abuse damn near daily and actually believe in the human ability to make an educated choice. I am on the edge of my seat waiting...
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
where do you get this from? I understood consequences long before 25...I think it happened around the time I touched a hot stove and burned myself after being simply told not to touch it...might as well make that behavior illegal too.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
and yep I do think bath salts should be available. I also wonder if people would turn to bath salts if a bag of weed or coke was sitting right next to it at the same gas station?...I also think that everyone who uses bath salts gets high and tries to eat people. I see thousands of those cases a day. Since I believe people should be able to use bath salts, Robitussin, or whatever else they want to get high, that has to mean that not only do I support such behavior I actually encourage it. If people want to kill themselves by all means go nuts. The bath salt epidemic reminds me of the PCP scare...helen hunt jumping out a window anyone?
47000 deaths in mexico alone in drug related violence since 2006. That doesn't count Colombia. But that doesn't matter. Those people aren't defended here, it is the people who od on their own volition in the US that matter. By the way, those numbers are probably low as the different states in mexico have a hard time gathering consistent data. That doesn't include Colombia or any other latin american country.
Your argument against the drug war is based in morality, I pointed out that it is morally selective in its nature of who you believe to be more important. in other words, it is morally inconsistent. I don't use a moral argument for the ending of the drug war personally. I can point out statistics and all sorts of negatives associated with it, but ultimately the people involved in it are choosing to do so. They do so at their own risk...just like drug users. I just wanted to point out to you that caring about some deaths over others is strange.
Personally, I just think it is bad policy if one wants to truly end drug use and fiscally irresponsible to continue to fight a war with no hope of ever winning. Spend half of it on treatment and save the other half...or if you have to spend it...spend it on enforcing victim crimes.
No my opinion is based in logic. If we legalize all drugs, we as a society
are sending the message we condone the use, you a perfect example of just this.
You yourself condone the use as bolded in red.
This with your I don't care attitude for the children who try drugs.
They are as innocent as those dying across the world.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
There is no responsible use of highly addictive hard drugs. Use will escalate, use will kill.
Use will hurt our country.
The fact that you encourage others to use drugs you are also supporting
the killing of those caught in the drug war and those dying using drugs.
You are selectively "writing off" those who use drugs without
the consideration for life. And all the lives effected by another's hard drug use.
You are morally selective, choosing to only feel for those caught in violence.
Yet it appears you could care less about the violence
that would come from legalizing all drugs, just in the example of bath salts alone,
which is legal and you are fine with :wtf: ....
My book ... one cannibal is one cannibal too many :fp:
From your words here your high horse is .... if you are dumb enough to use ... die then,
to me that callous is morally wrong and ridiculous because no one dies alone.
Someone innocent is aways hurt...
everyone is someone's child and much more...
Every life is valuable, our choices not ours alone.
This the purpose of life, the connection of life.
sorry, didn't realize you could read sarcasm. I will always put from now on.
I care more about people than you will ever know. I also trust them a lot more than you do. I have a higher opinion of our ability to choose given the education to make the choice. I work in public health. I work with the homeless, I work with the poor ... don't tell me I don't care. I could make twice as much doing what I do in the private sector, and will eventually end up there if what I want government to be actually happens. Until then what I have chosen to do in life has led me to the conclusion that our whole world view on drugs needs to change as a country if we truly want to help and care about people.
Right now the money spent on the drug war would be better used simply giving it to the cartels to not produce. Kind of a like a drug CRP program.
Treatment and education will do more to stop people from using than illegality and force. But someone who thinks that people need to be coerced and forced into behavior wouldn't think that way.
By the way, I hear stories every day at work from people who used drugs, use drugs...they are heartbreaking...but have you ever heard the phrase "won't quit until they want to"...force isn't going to do it.
Punish crimes committed on drugs more than if they weren't high...but don't punish the simple act of getting high...People like you are the reason that drug crimes are still an issue. People who cannot separate wanting people off drugs from keeping them illegal and hidden in the shadows...WHAT ASPECT OF THE DRUG WAR IS WORKING?
Do you have any evidence to support the theory that more people would start using if they were legal? Would you do heroin if it were legal? me either. Real evidence? The only place where I have seen drugs decriminalized it actually went down after an initial spike. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nalization
I want legalization so business can benefit, farmers can benefit, and the consumer can benefit, but I would settle for simply decriminalization.
But keep up the moral outrage, keep saying that people who think a new way of treating drug use might work better and have more upside than down are against kids...It is a very convincing argument unfortunately
sometimes I just have to shake my head at the unwillingness to look at it a different way. I have looked at if the way it has been done for decades...can't we try the other way for a few minutes?
but you don't care, to you there is no better way than what we are doing apparently. It's all about the kids right?
which part of this post will you ignore? the part where I showed you statistics of less death due to drugs and illness related to drugs, or the part where I told you I work with people affected by drug abuse damn near daily and actually believe in the human ability to make an educated choice. I am on the edge of my seat waiting...
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
where do you get this from? I understood consequences long before 25...I think it happened around the time I touched a hot stove and burned myself after being simply told not to touch it...might as well make that behavior illegal too.
Thanks, Mike... I love your posts... Great work.
"Would you do heroin if it were legal? me either."
I also trust them a lot more than you do. I have a higher opinion of our ability to choose given the education to make the choice. I work in public health. I work with the homeless, I work with the poor ... don't tell me I don't care.
Maybe this is the key to many of the differing opinions in here on legalization. I don’t think Pandora has any faith in people under the age of 25 for some odd reason. I think I fall somewhere in the middle. I worry that people might abuse some drugs more if they were made legal. But I feel better knowing that education and awareness would have to be bumped up. Personally, I never cared if drugs were legal or not…that made no difference to me. I stayed away from scary drugs because I was aware of the ill effects – long before the age of 25. But I think the example of cigarettes and booze are good ones. Because they're legal, does not mean we encourage people to use them. And of course some people will abuse them, legal or not.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25 by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.[/b]
I think this is way off base. Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL. But, you’ve obviously had experience with people under that age who have led you to believe this. I think people under the age of 25 might not have the same decision making ideology as when they're 35, but that doesnt mean they don’t understand consequences.
Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL.
If I remember correctly, this stemmed from one reading about the brain not being fully developed before the age of 25 (at the latest). What one failed to understand by this is, though this part of the brain (pre-frontal cortex) may not be FULLY matured, it is developed and has been 'developing' since birth (unless one has a malformation or trauma at birth or thereafter). It is the part of the brain that 'houses' the executive functions such as planning, organising, forming strategies, weighing consequences, controlling inappropriate behaviour, etc. So, whilst it may be true that during this maturing phase for teens, they may succumb to impulses a bit more and not think about so much about future consequences, they do. It is a false statement saying people under 25 do not understand consequences - they still do and perfectly so (and from a young age). It is also an insult to all responsible youngsters/young adults saying they have no control over what they do. I will also say, though I am not a professional, I do know quite a lot about this as I deal daily with someone who has had an injury to this part of the brain. It is not a 'cut and dry' affair. But I digress....
Also, as I stated a long time ago in this thread (and posted some links - if I remember well), decriminalisation does work and would seem a good medium between the two opposing thoughts about legalisation. One needs to get to the root of the problem and educate.
Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL.
If I remember correctly, this stemmed from one reading about the brain not being fully developed before the age of 25 (at the latest). What one failed to understand by this is, though this part of the brain (pre-frontal cortex) may not be FULLY matured, it is developed and has been 'developing' since birth (unless one has a malformation or trauma at birth or thereafter). It is the part of the brain that 'houses' the executive functions such as planning, organising, forming strategies, weighing consequences, controlling inappropriate behaviour, etc. So, whilst it may be true that during this maturing phase for teens, they may succumb to impulses a bit more and not think about so much about future consequences, they do. It is a false statement saying people under 25 do not understand consequences - they still do and perfectly so (and from a young age). It is also an insult to all responsible youngsters/young adults saying they have no control over what they do. I will also say, though I am not a professional, I do know quite a lot about this as I deal daily with someone who has had an injury to this part of the brain. It is not a 'cut and dry' affair. But I digress....
Also, as I stated a long time ago in this thread (and posted some links - if I remember well), decriminalisation does work and would seem a good medium between the two opposing thoughts about legalisation. One needs to get to the root of the problem and educate.
...
Thanx for that.
Also... where do the parent's responsibility kick in? I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
Final question... isn't alcohol the 'gateway drug'? I mean, how many kids smoke pot as their first experiment? Isn't it typically beer*?
..
*EDIT: Other than the Ritalin and Lithium you are sending them to school on.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL.
If I remember correctly, this stemmed from one reading about the brain not being fully developed before the age of 25 (at the latest). What one failed to understand by this is, though this part of the brain (pre-frontal cortex) may not be FULLY matured, it is developed and has been 'developing' since birth (unless one has a malformation or trauma at birth or thereafter). It is the part of the brain that 'houses' the executive functions such as planning, organising, forming strategies, weighing consequences, controlling inappropriate behaviour, etc. So, whilst it may be true that during this maturing phase for teens, they may succumb to impulses a bit more and not think about so much about future consequences, they do. It is a false statement saying people under 25 do not understand consequences - they still do and perfectly so (and from a young age). It is also an insult to all responsible youngsters/young adults saying they have no control over what they do. I will also say, though I am not a professional, I do know quite a lot about this as I deal daily with someone who has had an injury to this part of the brain. It is not a 'cut and dry' affair. But I digress....
Also, as I stated a long time ago in this thread (and posted some links - if I remember well), decriminalisation does work and would seem a good medium between the two opposing thoughts about legalisation. One needs to get to the root of the problem and educate.
...
Thanx for that.
Also... where do the parent's responsibility kick in? I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
Final question... isn't alcohol the 'gateway drug'? I mean, how many kids smoke pot as their first experiment? Isn't it typically beer*?
..
*EDIT: Other than the Ritalin and Lithium you are sending them to school on.
Alcohol (liquor) was the first thing for me. Led to pot, lsd, cocaine, various pills. Later it turned to crack cocaine. Am now sober 6 yrs 2 1/2 months thankfully.
There was no discussion with my or from my parents related to any of this. No wat to know , but I dont think thta would have changed anything in regards to my usage. I drank to excess from the very first time. and that was primarily the goal from there forward.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL.
If I remember correctly, this stemmed from one reading about the brain not being fully developed before the age of 25 (at the latest). What one failed to understand by this is, though this part of the brain (pre-frontal cortex) may not be FULLY matured, it is developed and has been 'developing' since birth (unless one has a malformation or trauma at birth or thereafter). It is the part of the brain that 'houses' the executive functions such as planning, organising, forming strategies, weighing consequences, controlling inappropriate behaviour, etc. So, whilst it may be true that during this maturing phase for teens, they may succumb to impulses a bit more and not think about so much about future consequences, they do. It is a false statement saying people under 25 do not understand consequences - they still do and perfectly so (and from a young age). It is also an insult to all responsible youngsters/young adults saying they have no control over what they do. I will also say, though I am not a professional, I do know quite a lot about this as I deal daily with someone who has had an injury to this part of the brain. It is not a 'cut and dry' affair. But I digress....
Also, as I stated a long time ago in this thread (and posted some links - if I remember well), decriminalisation does work and would seem a good medium between the two opposing thoughts about legalisation. One needs to get to the root of the problem and educate.
Final question... isn't alcohol the 'gateway drug'?
"Study: The ‘gateway drug’ is alcohol, not marijuana"
Also... where do the parent's responsibility kick in? I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
Parents' responsibilities kick in from day 1. Parents need to educate their kids as to what is responsible behaviour, whether it is with drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, etc. Some parents can't/won't or don't understand themselves (eg: 'Your grandpa has always smoked like a chimney and look at him at 95 - still running around chasing the girls....' type attitude). Society does play a role in educating as well - schools, professionals, etc. Governments/corporations also need to look at their responsibilities and take action (but as mentioned in this thread already, there may not be that much 'incentive' for them to do so).
And I do agree - kids usually go for alcohol before any drugs. And, in the same way as one can see less issues with drugs in countries where they are decriminalised, one sees less issues with major alcoholism/binge drinking in countries where alcohol is more 'part of life' from a younger age (ie a little drop of wine with dinner on a Sunday or a little glass of champagne for special days, etc. when you're young) - teaching how to drink responsibly.
I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
NO!
unless your experience leads you to believe you see something similar in others (kids or not). Some of lifes greatest teachers are people other than your parents.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Okay. So, most rational people feel that it is the parent's responsibility, not society's, to set the moral compass of their children. I feel the same way. The parents are the ones who SHOULD be the responsible party... certainly not me... to teach their children.
...
And parents... what the fuck is with the Ritalin?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Okay. So, most rational people feel that it is the parent's responsibility, not society's, to set the moral compass of their children. I feel the same way. The parents are the ones who SHOULD be the responsible party... certainly not me... to teach their children.
...
And parents... what the fuck is with the Ritalin?
Ritalin is ok because it was prescribed by a hmo doctor (who may or may not have gotten his degree at a medical school on Grenada)...and as parent you should never question your doctor
Alcohol (liquor) was the first thing for me. Led to pot, lsd, cocaine, various pills. Later it turned to crack cocaine. Am now sober 6 yrs 2 1/2 months thankfully.
There was no discussion with my or from my parents related to any of this. No wat to know , but I dont think thta would have changed anything in regards to my usage. I drank to excess from the very first time. and that was primarily the goal from there forward.
Alcohol (liquor) was the first thing for me. Led to pot, lsd, cocaine, various pills. Later it turned to crack cocaine. Am now sober 6 yrs 2 1/2 months thankfully.
There was no discussion with my or from my parents related to any of this. No wat to know , but I dont think thta would have changed anything in regards to my usage. I drank to excess from the very first time. and that was primarily the goal from there forward.
:wave:
Chadwick your post left a huge picture(Bill Murry in where the buffalo roam) burning in my mind, I freakin kove it !!!
Godfather.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,426
Alcohol (liquor) was the first thing for me. Led to pot, lsd, cocaine, various pills. Later it turned to crack cocaine. Am now sober 6 yrs 2 1/2 months thankfully.
There was no discussion with my or from my parents related to any of this. No wat to know , but I dont think thta would have changed anything in regards to my usage. I drank to excess from the very first time. and that was primarily the goal from there forward.
:wave:
Chadwick your post left a huge picture(Bill Murry in where the buffalo roam) burning in my mind, I freakin kove it !!!
Godfather.
Bill Murray is a drug!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
NO!
unless your experience leads you to believe you see something similar in others (kids or not). Some of lifes greatest teachers are people other than your parents.
but i feel its okay to remind them every now again... when its needed.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
where do you get this from? I understood consequences long before 25...I think it happened around the time I touched a hot stove and burned myself after being simply told not to touch it...might as well make that behavior illegal too.
just google this well known brain fact ...
That was a great warning ... a burned hand.
I didn't have to burn my hand to know better, my Mama taught me HOT! :P
Mama taught me many things, I was one of the lucky ones. Many don't have Mama's like mine.
Obviously we can't rely on parents alone to teach and produce flawless human beings.
We also can't write off the children who don't know better. That would be a cold cruel thing to do.
14 taser shocks and mace in the eyes
did not stop the cannibal running through his neighborhood
with a large very sharp kitchen knife.
He was high on legal bath salts, glad he didn't run
into a child playing and decide to have a tasty treat :wtf:
People who want to legalize hard drugs perhaps think users are responsible people.
Responsible before, after and during.
That they pose no danger to innocent bystanders only to themselves.
Ridiculous :fp: just look around.
Thank God for our police force, they risk their lives to keep us safe.
That was a great warning ... a burned hand.
I didn't have to burn my hand to know better, my Mama taught me HOT! :P
Mama taught me many things, I was one of the lucky ones. Many don't have Mama's like mine.
Obviously we can't rely on parents alone to teach and produce flawless human beings.
My parents taught me well too, but I still had to make some of my own stupid mistakes in order to learn beyond (or just confirm) their lessons.
For the bolded part - we can rely on nothing to produce human perfection; no matter how earnest or sincere the parent/child - or the teacher/student - it simply doesn't, and never will, exist.
(it can't and doesn't have to, either...seems a futile pursuit)
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
where do you get this from? I understood consequences long before 25...I think it happened around the time I touched a hot stove and burned myself after being simply told not to touch it...might as well make that behavior illegal too.
just google this well known brain fact ...
That was a great warning ... a burned hand.
I didn't have to burn my hand to know better, my Mama taught me HOT! :P
Mama taught me many things, I was one of the lucky ones. Many don't have Mama's like mine.
Obviously we can't rely on parents alone to teach and produce flawless human beings.
We also can't write off the children who don't know better. That would be a cold cruel thing to do.
Laws to protect are needed.
what I am saying to you is it isn't irrefutable fact. I knew consequences of actions long before 25. I am willing to be MOST people do. As was pointed out earlier, you have made a gross overstatement on the facts surrounding your claim.
ALSO, bringing drug users into the criminal justice system simply for using or forcing their behavior into the dark through social stigma and mis-education is writing off children who don't know better...Thanks for proving my point.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
So-called, 'Bath Salts' are NOT legal drugs. The makers are working around the legal system by labeling them as 'Not For Human Consumption' and sold as bath powder and/or insense. It is a method to circumvent the system, including the FDA, and allow the over the counter sale of them.
Of course, everyone knows that these items are being bought buy people to get high. They are basically a non-regulated drug concoction like any other non-ingestible topical herbal remedy.
The arguement that it is legalized drugs is ridiculous. It is the same as trying to argue that Krylon spray paint is a legalized drug because people sniff it to get a buzz. It is not the intended use.
The problem with the liquor store bath salts is that its makers know that people are ingesting the stuff, but can hide behind the legal system by saying, "It says right there on the label... Do not eat this shit." The same way a bong can be sold legally because it can be used to smoke tobacco... but, when do you think the last time someone bought a bong to smoke Bugler tobacco?
...
It amazes me on how fucking hard up people are on catching a buzz. Haven't these fucks heard about alcohol or pot? I mean, sniffing fucking paint or taking some shit made by some amateur chemist in Palmdale to get high? Or licking the belly of a toad... which brings me to another thing. Who the FUCK was the fucking psycho who found out licking a toad's belly will get you high? How hard up was THAT asshole?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The makers of the legal bath salts are changing formulas and ingredients as fast as
lawmakers can make them illegal.
Bathsalts a perfect example of dangerous substance abuse if drugs are legalized,
they are obviously very dangerous yet people choose to take the risk for a high.
In doing so they risk the lives of others...
...
It amazes me on how fucking hard up people are on catching a buzz. Haven't these fucks heard about alcohol or pot? I mean, sniffing fucking paint or taking some shit made by some amateur chemist in Palmdale to get high? Or licking the belly of a toad... which brings me to another thing. Who the FUCK was the fucking psycho who found out licking a toad's belly will get you high? How hard up was THAT asshole?
it's because the current buzz of choice is no longer working for them, so they have to try something harder. that's why some argue that pot is a gateway drug. but that's an overgeneralization. I'd bet the majority of pot users are pot users for life, but there is a small percentage that NEED to be completely fucked up and have to move onto something harder to get the buzz they want. it's not the drug that no longer works, it's that they are looking for a harder buzz.
same thing with booze. you don't see many hardcore alcoholics drinking beer. because they switch to hard stuff straight up.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
That was a great warning ... a burned hand.
I didn't have to burn my hand to know better, my Mama taught me HOT! :P
Mama taught me many things, I was one of the lucky ones. Many don't have Mama's like mine.
Obviously we can't rely on parents alone to teach and produce flawless human beings.
My parents taught me well too, but I still had to make some of my own stupid mistakes in order to learn beyond (or just confirm) their lessons.
For the bolded part - we can rely on nothing to produce human perfection; no matter how earnest or sincere the parent/child - or the teacher/student - it simply doesn't, and never will, exist.
(it can't and doesn't have to, either...seems a futile pursuit)
Really didn't mean perfection, sorry, my flawless was directed at the topic at hand ...
clean.
I totally agree, my point though was some parents teach irresponsible substance abuse
that carries into adulthood. This the cycle needs to be broken not encouraged.
This true with all substance legal or otherwise.
Teens, as a rule, test the water, they live dangerous without consequence noted,
they are bulletproof. Their brains wired for this behavior. It could be a fast car too.
We have a lot of kids racing here and getting hurt.
Many teens get hooked on hard drugs and don't mature into responsible adults, some never,
some after punishment, lesson learned.
Irresponsible adults, those using hard drugs, are a danger to society, it's children
and it's future.
Comments
No my opinion is based in logic. If we legalize all drugs, we as a society
are sending the message we condone the use, you a perfect example of just this.
You yourself condone the use as bolded in red.
This with your I don't care attitude for the children who try drugs.
They are as innocent as those dying across the world.
They are being used and abused. Their brains do not understand consequence until age 25
by then the damage done is massive, if they are still breathing that is.
There is no responsible use of highly addictive hard drugs. Use will escalate, use will kill.
Use will hurt our country.
The fact that you encourage others to use drugs you are also supporting
the killing of those caught in the drug war and those dying using drugs.
You are selectively "writing off" those who use drugs without
the consideration for life. And all the lives effected by another's hard drug use.
You are morally selective, choosing to only feel for those caught in violence.
Yet it appears you could care less about the violence
that would come from legalizing all drugs, just in the example of bath salts alone,
which is legal and you are fine with :wtf: ....
My book ... one cannibal is one cannibal too many :fp:
From your words here your high horse is .... if you are dumb enough to use ... die then,
to me that callous is morally wrong and ridiculous because no one dies alone.
Someone innocent is aways hurt...
everyone is someone's child and much more...
Every life is valuable, our choices not ours alone.
This the purpose of life, the connection of life.
HOW DOES IT SEND A MESSAGE THAT DRUGS ARE OK IF YOU ARE SHIFTING FUNDING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE DANGERS OF USE??????
You say yourself that these people don’t even understand the consequence of their actions until they’re 25 (a generalization, but let’s go with it)….if that’s the case, then WHY should they be locked up for it, if they don’t even understand what they’ve done? Why not educate them and HELP them, if being caring and loving is what you advocate?
I suppose one could argue that ANY use is irresponsible since it is, generally speaking, unhealthy to use any psychoactive drug for recreational purpose....but...you could say that about dozens of things we ingest daily. If you're suggesting that no one can use drugs recreationally without use escalating, and dying....you're lying....again. I would wager that on any given Saturday night, 10-15% of the patrons of any night club you visit, in any westernized city, is high on some kind of 'hard' drug. Yet they manage to get up and go to work on Monday and nothing changes. No victims, no destroyed families, no sobbing mothers, no craving for more 'killer' drugs. Your histrionics are exhausting.
sorry, didn't realize you could read sarcasm. I will always put from now on.
I care more about people than you will ever know. I also trust them a lot more than you do. I have a higher opinion of our ability to choose given the education to make the choice. I work in public health. I work with the homeless, I work with the poor ... don't tell me I don't care. I could make twice as much doing what I do in the private sector, and will eventually end up there if what I want government to be actually happens. Until then what I have chosen to do in life has led me to the conclusion that our whole world view on drugs needs to change as a country if we truly want to help and care about people.
Right now the money spent on the drug war would be better used simply giving it to the cartels to not produce. Kind of a like a drug CRP program.
Treatment and education will do more to stop people from using than illegality and force. But someone who thinks that people need to be coerced and forced into behavior wouldn't think that way.
By the way, I hear stories every day at work from people who used drugs, use drugs...they are heartbreaking...but have you ever heard the phrase "won't quit until they want to"...force isn't going to do it.
Punish crimes committed on drugs more than if they weren't high...but don't punish the simple act of getting high...People like you are the reason that drug crimes are still an issue. People who cannot separate wanting people off drugs from keeping them illegal and hidden in the shadows...WHAT ASPECT OF THE DRUG WAR IS WORKING?
Do you have any evidence to support the theory that more people would start using if they were legal? Would you do heroin if it were legal? me either. Real evidence? The only place where I have seen drugs decriminalized it actually went down after an initial spike.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nalization
I want legalization so business can benefit, farmers can benefit, and the consumer can benefit, but I would settle for simply decriminalization.
But keep up the moral outrage, keep saying that people who think a new way of treating drug use might work better and have more upside than down are against kids...It is a very convincing argument unfortunately
sometimes I just have to shake my head at the unwillingness to look at it a different way. I have looked at if the way it has been done for decades...can't we try the other way for a few minutes?
but you don't care, to you there is no better way than what we are doing apparently. It's all about the kids right?
which part of this post will you ignore? the part where I showed you statistics of less death due to drugs and illness related to drugs, or the part where I told you I work with people affected by drug abuse damn near daily and actually believe in the human ability to make an educated choice. I am on the edge of my seat waiting...
where do you get this from? I understood consequences long before 25...I think it happened around the time I touched a hot stove and burned myself after being simply told not to touch it...might as well make that behavior illegal too.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Thanks, Mike... I love your posts... Great work.
"Would you do heroin if it were legal? me either."
No, I wouldn't...
Maybe this is the key to many of the differing opinions in here on legalization. I don’t think Pandora has any faith in people under the age of 25 for some odd reason. I think I fall somewhere in the middle. I worry that people might abuse some drugs more if they were made legal. But I feel better knowing that education and awareness would have to be bumped up. Personally, I never cared if drugs were legal or not…that made no difference to me. I stayed away from scary drugs because I was aware of the ill effects – long before the age of 25. But I think the example of cigarettes and booze are good ones. Because they're legal, does not mean we encourage people to use them. And of course some people will abuse them, legal or not.
I think this is way off base. Pandora, I keep seeing you think people's brains don't understand consequence until age 25. :? I dont get that AT ALL. But, you’ve obviously had experience with people under that age who have led you to believe this. I think people under the age of 25 might not have the same decision making ideology as when they're 35, but that doesnt mean they don’t understand consequences.
If I remember correctly, this stemmed from one reading about the brain not being fully developed before the age of 25 (at the latest). What one failed to understand by this is, though this part of the brain (pre-frontal cortex) may not be FULLY matured, it is developed and has been 'developing' since birth (unless one has a malformation or trauma at birth or thereafter). It is the part of the brain that 'houses' the executive functions such as planning, organising, forming strategies, weighing consequences, controlling inappropriate behaviour, etc. So, whilst it may be true that during this maturing phase for teens, they may succumb to impulses a bit more and not think about so much about future consequences, they do. It is a false statement saying people under 25 do not understand consequences - they still do and perfectly so (and from a young age). It is also an insult to all responsible youngsters/young adults saying they have no control over what they do. I will also say, though I am not a professional, I do know quite a lot about this as I deal daily with someone who has had an injury to this part of the brain. It is not a 'cut and dry' affair. But I digress....
Also, as I stated a long time ago in this thread (and posted some links - if I remember well), decriminalisation does work and would seem a good medium between the two opposing thoughts about legalisation. One needs to get to the root of the problem and educate.
Thanx for that.
Also... where do the parent's responsibility kick in? I mean, is it part of me, being part of society, to educate other people's kids?
Final question... isn't alcohol the 'gateway drug'? I mean, how many kids smoke pot as their first experiment? Isn't it typically beer*?
..
*EDIT: Other than the Ritalin and Lithium you are sending them to school on.
Hail, Hail!!!
There was no discussion with my or from my parents related to any of this. No wat to know , but I dont think thta would have changed anything in regards to my usage. I drank to excess from the very first time. and that was primarily the goal from there forward.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
NO!
"Study: The ‘gateway drug’ is alcohol, not marijuana"
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/05/s ... marijuana/
And I do agree - kids usually go for alcohol before any drugs. And, in the same way as one can see less issues with drugs in countries where they are decriminalised, one sees less issues with major alcoholism/binge drinking in countries where alcohol is more 'part of life' from a younger age (ie a little drop of wine with dinner on a Sunday or a little glass of champagne for special days, etc. when you're young) - teaching how to drink responsibly.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
...
And parents... what the fuck is with the Ritalin?
Hail, Hail!!!
Ritalin is ok because it was prescribed by a hmo doctor (who may or may not have gotten his degree at a medical school on Grenada)...and as parent you should never question your doctor
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Godfather.
Bill Murray is a drug!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
but i feel its okay to remind them every now again... when its needed.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That was a great warning ... a burned hand.
I didn't have to burn my hand to know better, my Mama taught me HOT! :P
Mama taught me many things, I was one of the lucky ones. Many don't have Mama's like mine.
Obviously we can't rely on parents alone to teach and produce flawless human beings.
We also can't write off the children who don't know better. That would be a cold cruel thing to do.
Laws to protect are needed.
did not stop the cannibal running through his neighborhood
with a large very sharp kitchen knife.
He was high on legal bath salts, glad he didn't run
into a child playing and decide to have a tasty treat :wtf:
People who want to legalize hard drugs perhaps think users are responsible people.
Responsible before, after and during.
That they pose no danger to innocent bystanders only to themselves.
Ridiculous :fp: just look around.
Thank God for our police force, they risk their lives to keep us safe.
For the bolded part - we can rely on nothing to produce human perfection; no matter how earnest or sincere the parent/child - or the teacher/student - it simply doesn't, and never will, exist.
(it can't and doesn't have to, either...seems a futile pursuit)
what I am saying to you is it isn't irrefutable fact. I knew consequences of actions long before 25. I am willing to be MOST people do. As was pointed out earlier, you have made a gross overstatement on the facts surrounding your claim.
ALSO, bringing drug users into the criminal justice system simply for using or forcing their behavior into the dark through social stigma and mis-education is writing off children who don't know better...Thanks for proving my point.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/0 ... 52781.html
Of course, everyone knows that these items are being bought buy people to get high. They are basically a non-regulated drug concoction like any other non-ingestible topical herbal remedy.
The arguement that it is legalized drugs is ridiculous. It is the same as trying to argue that Krylon spray paint is a legalized drug because people sniff it to get a buzz. It is not the intended use.
The problem with the liquor store bath salts is that its makers know that people are ingesting the stuff, but can hide behind the legal system by saying, "It says right there on the label... Do not eat this shit." The same way a bong can be sold legally because it can be used to smoke tobacco... but, when do you think the last time someone bought a bong to smoke Bugler tobacco?
...
It amazes me on how fucking hard up people are on catching a buzz. Haven't these fucks heard about alcohol or pot? I mean, sniffing fucking paint or taking some shit made by some amateur chemist in Palmdale to get high? Or licking the belly of a toad... which brings me to another thing. Who the FUCK was the fucking psycho who found out licking a toad's belly will get you high? How hard up was THAT asshole?
Hail, Hail!!!
lawmakers can make them illegal.
Bathsalts a perfect example of dangerous substance abuse if drugs are legalized,
they are obviously very dangerous yet people choose to take the risk for a high.
In doing so they risk the lives of others...
http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2012/0 ... l_ban.html
it's because the current buzz of choice is no longer working for them, so they have to try something harder. that's why some argue that pot is a gateway drug. but that's an overgeneralization. I'd bet the majority of pot users are pot users for life, but there is a small percentage that NEED to be completely fucked up and have to move onto something harder to get the buzz they want. it's not the drug that no longer works, it's that they are looking for a harder buzz.
same thing with booze. you don't see many hardcore alcoholics drinking beer. because they switch to hard stuff straight up.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
clean.
I totally agree, my point though was some parents teach irresponsible substance abuse
that carries into adulthood. This the cycle needs to be broken not encouraged.
This true with all substance legal or otherwise.
Teens, as a rule, test the water, they live dangerous without consequence noted,
they are bulletproof. Their brains wired for this behavior. It could be a fast car too.
We have a lot of kids racing here and getting hurt.
Many teens get hooked on hard drugs and don't mature into responsible adults, some never,
some after punishment, lesson learned.
Irresponsible adults, those using hard drugs, are a danger to society, it's children
and it's future.