I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?
I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?
...
Yes... that is it.
Like, there is an objective answer to the question, 'Is there a God?'. Yes or No. But, most answer, 'I don't know'' simply because that is the truth.. we just don't know.
Someone who answers Yes or No comes into question because there is no proof to back up their answers. Since the absence of proof that God does or does not exist does not prove She does or does not exist... the Yes or No answer is subjective.
But, there is an objective truth... God exists or God does not exist. As mere mortal humans, we can't know the truth.
Again, no one denies Pandora of her subjective truth... it's the basic premise that she, as one of us mere mortals, knows the objective truth... that is what we reject. We reject it because we've heard it hundreds of times in our live... sometime by some very unsavory people (David Koresh, Usama bin Laden, Muqtada Al Sadr, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Charles Manson, etc...). Accepting Pandora's doctrine would mean we accept those individual's doctrines, too.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?
...
Yes... that is it.
Like, there is an objective answer to the question, 'Is there a God?'. Yes or No. But, most answer, 'I don't know'' simply because that is the truth.. we just don't know.
Someone who answers Yes or No comes into question because there is no proof to back up their answers. Since the absence of proof that God does or does not exist does not prove She does or does not exist... the Yes or No answer is subjective.
But, there is an objective truth... God exists or God does not exist. As mere mortal humans, we can't know the truth.
Again, no one denies Pandora of her subjective truth... it's the basic premise that she, as one of us mere mortals, knows the objective truth... that is what we reject. We reject it because we've heard it hundreds of times in our live... sometime by some very unsavory people (David Koresh, Usama bin Laden, Muqtada Al Sadr, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Charles Manson, etc...). Accepting Pandora's doctrine would mean we accept those individual's doctrines, too.
You forgot my favorite, Jim Jones.
Are you placing Pandora into the list of insane people?
I think it's fair to say these people placed their beliefs higher than reality itself, making them, yes, insane. If one can keep their subjectivist beliefs in check with reality, they're not really harmful to society, unlike those examples you mentioned.
You forgot my favorite, Jim Jones.
Are you placing Pandora into the list of insane people?
I think it's fair to say these people placed their beliefs higher than reality itself, making them, yes, insane. If one can keep their subjectivist beliefs in check with reality, they're not really harmful to society, unlike those examples you mentioned.
...
No. Because I am sure there are some very nice people who adhere to that same doctrine.
I use the extreme examples because those are the most easily recognised by most people and why we would reject their claims of knowing God. Like Koresh (and Jim Jones) had many followers that believed that those guy really knew God.
I just can't think of others... admirable people... that make that claim.
...
P.S. If Eddie Vedder said he knew God... I would reject his doctrine, too.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.
Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.
But don't you think that if Pandora talks about "knowing God" in every post (which she has), you'd think that she wouldn't be so closed off to answering a few questions by Cosmo and others who are simply looking for some answers. How can one go on and on about being "in the know", yet shut off and resort to insults when someone asks for more information? It's not reasonable!
Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.
...
Well... I suppose it is does fall within the realm of possibility... because anything is possible (like my cat understanding cosmological origins of the Universe and conveying the validity of the God Concept)... That maybe Pandora DOES actually know God... objectively. That would be a rare and extrordinary possibility that places her in the same company of Mother Mary and Jesus... Moses and... well, that's it. Those 3 and Pandora.
Then, there is the realm of probability... where my cat understands the sound of her Friskies being opened and probably hasn't a clue who God is (or isn't).
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You guys, oh my gosh, funny, I always thought the PJ community rules...
very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one That is a good thing.
I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way
just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God
and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane,
paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others
in their lifetimes among other things....
and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God
and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :?
alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?
I am just me, Pandora
Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things
are biased .... wait....
is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.
My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an active
sixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get.
Reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.
If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ...
well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.
I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.
I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.
When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do,
you all can say ....
been there done that...got the t-shirt!
Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,
went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!
And a good night to all
oh and I know Santa too just kidding couldn't resist
A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God
and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
unfortantely, this is a recurring theme with you it seems.......taking some sick pride in stirring shit up.
see ya. :?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You guys, oh my gosh, funny, I always thought the PJ community rules... very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one That is a good thing.
I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane, paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others in their lifetimes among other things....and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :? alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?
I am just me, Pandora
Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things are biased .... wait.... is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.
My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an activesixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get. reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ... well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.
I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.
When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do, you all can say ....been there done that...got the t-shirt. Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!And a good night to all
oh and I know Santa too just kidding couldn't resist
A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life
..
If you need an example of what condescending or arrogant is... read the above message.
...
The true character of a person is not in what they tell you about themselves... it is found in the words of what others tell you about them.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'
I totally agree
so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.
Yeah, you could be loved by the rest of the planet and have been a miserable fuck. I thnk the reverse of Pandora's statement is true.
I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.
To me the point of love and loving isnt in the return of it , nice as that feels, its in the giving.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'
I totally agree
so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.
Yeah, you could be loved by the rest of the planet and have been a miserable fuck. I thnk the reverse of Pandora's statement is true.
I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.
To me the point of love and loving isnt in the return of it , nice as that feels, its in the giving.
Absolutely. Pandora has no clue here. And life is not meant to be judged neither. WTF?
I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.
I couldn't agree with this more.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Its a deal... I am just me and I am proud to know God
it JUST came to me! all of this confusion...You've been talking about PJ all along!
Soooo, how exactly did you get to meet Eddie?!
I kid, of course...just breaking the tension a bit...
thank you!
how I wish Jonny ... he is one god I so want to meet but I am not worthy
maybe in the afterlife if I am so privileged...
this post had me wondering a few days ago and now im home id like to discuss it with you pandora...
you say God is love.. in fact youve said it many many times. youve also said for you, God is separate from religion.. that they are 2 different things. youve even stated that youre unfamiliar with the bible. so can i ask you where you got this idea of an afterlife from???
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
this post had me wondering a few days ago and now im home id like to discuss it with you pandora...
you say God is love.. in fact youve said it many many times. youve also said for you, God is separate from religion.. that they are 2 different things. youve even stated that youre unfamiliar with the bible. so can i ask you where you got this idea of an afterlife from???
That was a bit of a joke ... sense of humor seems to be lacking sometimes
it's nice to lighten things up, laugh a bit...
..... youve even stated that youre unfamiliar with the bible. so can i ask you where you got this idea of an afterlife from???
That was a bit of a joke ... ...
So in all the posts you mention the afterlife, this was a joke? Do you therefore not believe in an afterlife?
eg
"Once I knew there is an afterlife new meaning to this life became clear."
"....when they know without a doubt there is God and afterlife"
"I know there is an afterlife... I would now bet my life on it, and for the right reasons."
etc..
Post edited by redrock on
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,126
You guys, oh my gosh, funny, I always thought the PJ community rules... very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one That is a good thing.
I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane, paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others in their lifetimes among other things....and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :? alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?
I am just me, Pandora
Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things are biased .... wait.... is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.
My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an activesixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get. reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ... well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.
I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.
When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do, you all can say ....been there done that...got the t-shirt. Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!And a good night to all
oh and I know Santa too just kidding couldn't resist
A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life
..
If you need an example of what condescending or arrogant is... read the above message.
...
The true character of a person is not in what they tell you about themselves... it is found in the words of what others tell you about them.
Say is that your quote Cosmo? I tend to believe that is true.....I wonder if that's the case with me.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I'm sorry, I didn't see Eddie mentioned in Cate's question that you quoted (and thus not really answered, unless it's all a joke for you and you're just 'deflecting').
I thought it was an interesting question and I wondered this myself - naturally not just regarding Pandora as I don't think we'll get a straight answer. I did mention something in this thread wondering how theists who believe in a god but not in religion and it's various 'books' (which is how the word of god is passed on) reconcile a god as some kind of 'concept' and the 'word of god' which is religion. Take what one likes (ie afterlife) and leave what one doesn't like? Then can one honestly disassociate god and religion?
I am blessed with lovely words and love from many people here and in my life.
If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'
I totally agree
...
Again... I understand the sentiment... but (again, sorry... but, it's a flaw in me... I have to ask...)...
Isn't Kim Jong Il loved by an entire country? And (again... hate to bring him up... but, it is factual) wasn't Hitler loved by almost an entire nation?
Does that mean Hitler is in Heaven?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Ask what? To be shown?
I've tried that... I must be asking the wrong question.
Hail, Hail!!!
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need
Yes... that is it.
Like, there is an objective answer to the question, 'Is there a God?'. Yes or No. But, most answer, 'I don't know'' simply because that is the truth.. we just don't know.
Someone who answers Yes or No comes into question because there is no proof to back up their answers. Since the absence of proof that God does or does not exist does not prove She does or does not exist... the Yes or No answer is subjective.
But, there is an objective truth... God exists or God does not exist. As mere mortal humans, we can't know the truth.
Again, no one denies Pandora of her subjective truth... it's the basic premise that she, as one of us mere mortals, knows the objective truth... that is what we reject. We reject it because we've heard it hundreds of times in our live... sometime by some very unsavory people (David Koresh, Usama bin Laden, Muqtada Al Sadr, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Charles Manson, etc...). Accepting Pandora's doctrine would mean we accept those individual's doctrines, too.
Hail, Hail!!!
You forgot my favorite, Jim Jones.
Are you placing Pandora into the list of insane people?
I think it's fair to say these people placed their beliefs higher than reality itself, making them, yes, insane. If one can keep their subjectivist beliefs in check with reality, they're not really harmful to society, unlike those examples you mentioned.
No. Because I am sure there are some very nice people who adhere to that same doctrine.
I use the extreme examples because those are the most easily recognised by most people and why we would reject their claims of knowing God. Like Koresh (and Jim Jones) had many followers that believed that those guy really knew God.
I just can't think of others... admirable people... that make that claim.
...
P.S. If Eddie Vedder said he knew God... I would reject his doctrine, too.
Hail, Hail!!!
Well... I suppose it is does fall within the realm of possibility... because anything is possible (like my cat understanding cosmological origins of the Universe and conveying the validity of the God Concept)... That maybe Pandora DOES actually know God... objectively. That would be a rare and extrordinary possibility that places her in the same company of Mother Mary and Jesus... Moses and... well, that's it. Those 3 and Pandora.
Then, there is the realm of probability... where my cat understands the sound of her Friskies being opened and probably hasn't a clue who God is (or isn't).
Hail, Hail!!!
very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one
That is a good thing.
I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way
just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God
and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane,
paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others
in their lifetimes among other things....
and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God
and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :?
alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?
I am just me, Pandora
Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things
are biased .... wait....
is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.
My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an active
sixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get.
Reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.
If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ...
well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.
I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.
I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.
When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do,
you all can say ....
been there done that...got the t-shirt!
Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,
went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!
And a good night to all
oh and I know Santa too
A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life
unfortantely, this is a recurring theme with you it seems.......taking some sick pride in stirring shit up.
see ya. :?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
If you need an example of what condescending or arrogant is... read the above message.
...
The true character of a person is not in what they tell you about themselves... it is found in the words of what others tell you about them.
Hail, Hail!!!
Ain't that the truth.
If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'
I totally agree
I'm thinking Pearl Jam has had quite a life!
so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
by that one.
"And he still gives his love, he just gives it away
The love he receives is the love that is saved"
our love is ours to keep
I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.
To me the point of love and loving isnt in the return of it , nice as that feels, its in the giving.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Absolutely. Pandora has no clue here. And life is not meant to be judged neither. WTF?
I couldn't agree with this more.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
this post had me wondering a few days ago and now im home id like to discuss it with you pandora...
you say God is love.. in fact youve said it many many times. youve also said for you, God is separate from religion.. that they are 2 different things. youve even stated that youre unfamiliar with the bible. so can i ask you where you got this idea of an afterlife from???
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
life we have lived... how much we are loved by others.
That seems very clear to me but I respect those who disagree of course
it's nice to lighten things up, laugh a bit...
So in all the posts you mention the afterlife, this was a joke? Do you therefore not believe in an afterlife?
eg
"Once I knew there is an afterlife new meaning to this life became clear."
"....when they know without a doubt there is God and afterlife"
"I know there is an afterlife... I would now bet my life on it, and for the right reasons."
etc..
Say is that your quote Cosmo? I tend to believe that is true.....I wonder if that's the case with me.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
that was the joke of course
I thought it was an interesting question and I wondered this myself - naturally not just regarding Pandora as I don't think we'll get a straight answer. I did mention something in this thread wondering how theists who believe in a god but not in religion and it's various 'books' (which is how the word of god is passed on) reconcile a god as some kind of 'concept' and the 'word of god' which is religion. Take what one likes (ie afterlife) and leave what one doesn't like? Then can one honestly disassociate god and religion?
Again... I understand the sentiment... but (again, sorry... but, it's a flaw in me... I have to ask...)...
Isn't Kim Jong Il loved by an entire country? And (again... hate to bring him up... but, it is factual) wasn't Hitler loved by almost an entire nation?
Does that mean Hitler is in Heaven?
Hail, Hail!!!