Back to the question of needing to believe in a god, the Buddhist philosophy explains the why's in a way that I find very relevant and sums up things nicely- believe in yourself, search within to find yourself and not 'out there' to find an external source. This is what is said to explain the fact that those that follow this philosophy do not believe in a god (and yes this is about a god but also religion but not automatically together):
"There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Dp 188
Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him. Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha’s teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.
The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea. There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god’s words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god’s nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god. It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found. Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.
The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary. Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin on the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so. There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god. Some claim that belief in god’s power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite. One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties, through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god. Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept. Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding. He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.
Complicated,... I know. But, that's why I didn't want to get into my own personal beliefs. Please... let the attacks begin...
Not complicated. A good account of your perception of god and where you're coming from. Not just 'god is', etc. Enables a debate.
You mention the afterlife - heaven or hell. These are teachings from man made religion. I don't know if you follow a religion but it has been said many times that one can find god without religion (which I totally agree with) but the same people who say that speak of afterlife and maybe some other 'teachings' which do come from organised religion (the word of god being passed on in the good books of various religions). Could this mean that, subconsciously maybe, there is still this association between god and religion whether one wants it or not?
Complicated,... I know. But, that's why I didn't want to get into my own personal beliefs. Please... let the attacks begin...
Not complicated. A good account of your perception of god and where you're coming from. Not just 'god is', etc. Enables a debate.
You mention the afterlife - heaven or hell. These are teachings from man made religion. I don't know if you follow a religion but it has been said many times that one can find god without religion (which I totally agree with) but the same people who say that speak of afterlife and maybe some other 'teachings' which do come from organised religion (the word of god being passed on in the good books of various religions). Could this mean that, subconsciously maybe, there is still this association between god and religion whether one wants it or not?
I suppose that, subconsciously, there is an association between God and religion. I'm not sure to be honest. For me, there definitely is. I can't speak for others.
I know a lot of people frown upon organized religion, and may have good reason to do so. I know other support it fervently, and may have good reason to do so. For me, I don't necessarily feel organized religion is a bad or good thing, it just is, it's the people who make up the religion and their thoughts/feelings/etc that make it good or bad... but that's how I feel... and to each his or her own.
A little off track, but I just read this from Anne Rice, and it made perfect sense to me about religion (Christianity):
"I think the whole idea of Christ's bloody atonement does not make sense. It's an insult to God the Father to think that he would 1-- damn the whole creation over Adam and Eve, and 2-- send his Son to atone for sin and 3-- only settle for "the way being narrow" with only a few saved. I reject the ideas out of hand. If God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving, then Atonement theory makes no sense and never did make sense. What makes sense is a loving God who wants us to live a good and ethical life. Not a vengeful bloody tyrant. And I do think as well that the whole idea of Christ's sacrifice does not make sense. If he knew he was God, of course it is not the same as human suffering those things."
All really good points IMO..
hmmm I know pretty much nothing of religion ... but this would be something really new for me
Jesus thought he himself was God?
I have never heard that...I thought he was the Son of God as we are all God's children.
That was his point ... he was a man, just a man. I'm not sure he thought of himself as God
I thought God worked through Jesus...?
am I misinterpreting her words?
And he died as a man on the cross like many others...
the suffering the same, agony, fear, alone in death.
It was the events after his death that made him more... the miracle of Resurrection
that brought Christianity
A little off track, but I just read this from Anne Rice, and it made perfect sense to me about religion (Christianity):
"I think the whole idea of Christ's bloody atonement does not make sense. It's an insult to God the Father to think that he would 1-- damn the whole creation over Adam and Eve, and 2-- send his Son to atone for sin and 3-- only settle for "the way being narrow" with only a few saved. I reject the ideas out of hand. If God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving, then Atonement theory makes no sense and never did make sense. What makes sense is a loving God who wants us to live a good and ethical life. Not a vengeful bloody tyrant. And I do think as well that the whole idea of Christ's sacrifice does not make sense. If he knew he was God, of course it is not the same as human suffering those things."
All really good points IMO..
hmmm I know pretty much nothing of religion ... but this would be something really new for me
Jesus thought he himself was God?
I have never heard that...I thought he was the Son of God as we are all God's children.
That was his point ... he was a man, just a man. I'm not sure he thought of himself as God
I thought God worked through Jesus...?
am I misinterpreting her words?
And he died as a man on the cross like many others...
the suffering the same, agony, fear, alone in death.
It was the events after his death that made him more... the miracle of Resurrection
that brought Christianity
The holy trinity (Christian) is one God, considered to be a unification of the three: God-Jesus-Holy Spirit.
He was just a man, but from what I recall, he was aware that he was the son of God. So Anne Rice is saying that for him to die the way he did was nothing like the death of an ordinary person. He was not alone in his death.. he knew he'd be reunited with his Pops.
But that's not the point she was trying to make. I believe she is in line with many of us here.. making her own interpretation of things. Her own religion so to speak. I am in complete agreement with her statements questioning a loving God and the motives behind who is saved and who is not.
A little off track, but I just read this from Anne Rice, and it made perfect sense to me about religion (Christianity):
"I think the whole idea of Christ's bloody atonement does not make sense. It's an insult to God the Father to think that he would 1-- damn the whole creation over Adam and Eve, and 2-- send his Son to atone for sin and 3-- only settle for "the way being narrow" with only a few saved. I reject the ideas out of hand. If God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving, then Atonement theory makes no sense and never did make sense. What makes sense is a loving God who wants us to live a good and ethical life. Not a vengeful bloody tyrant. And I do think as well that the whole idea of Christ's sacrifice does not make sense. If he knew he was God, of course it is not the same as human suffering those things."
All really good points IMO..
hmmm I know pretty much nothing of religion ... but this would be something really new for me
Jesus thought he himself was God?
I have never heard that...I thought he was the Son of God as we are all God's children.
That was his point ... he was a man, just a man. I'm not sure he thought of himself as God
I thought God worked through Jesus...?
am I misinterpreting her words?
And he died as a man on the cross like many others...
the suffering the same, agony, fear, alone in death.
It was the events after his death that made him more... the miracle of Resurrection
that brought Christianity
The holy trinity (Christian) is one God, considered to be a unification of the three: God-Jesus-Holy Spirit.
He was just a man, but from what I recall, he was aware that he was the son of God. So Anne Rice is saying that for him to die the way he did was nothing like the death of an ordinary person. He was not alone in his death.. he knew he'd be reunited with his Pops.
But that's not the point she was trying to make. I believe she is in line with many of us here.. making her own interpretation of things. Her own religion so to speak. I am in complete agreement with her statements questioning a loving God and the motives behind who is saved and who is not.
Thanks Jonny ... told ya I didn't know much :oops:
I too am in agreement...God provides unconditional love to teach us the same.
I still don't understand the atheist mentality here in this thread. It just seems to me that you continue to prick and prod one person in particular here and, to me, it shows an inherent insecurity. If you were secure in your faith in no God, I would think you would feel no need to keep picking and prodding. You'd let that person be in their faith in God and see no reason to continue to engage and torment their faith when it's obvious they believe in something you don't. In other words, let it be.
she invites the pricking and prodding by acting like she has some superior knowledge none of us are worthy of having. I let it be with others, but I can't with such a person. if someone claims to know something I don't, I ask them about it. Pretty simple. Has nothing to do with insecurity.
I'm pretty fucking secure in knowing I don't know god.
if someone told me they knew superman, even though I know that's not true, I'd still ask them what they talk about and how they met.
And I'm not atheist.
Check other threads. This is not always about god. she "knows" everything, no matter what the subject. her passive agressive nature says in one post that she doesn't know much with a little :oops: , but in the next one she says she knows something for certain but won't say how. it's pretty frustrating. like talking to my daughter who insists that it's saturday, when in fact it's sunday, and won't answer why she thinks it's sunday, she just says "I know it is".
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
why do some ask then when they know the answers? And 20 some odd pages worth?
If I speak my heart and say I know God that does not dismiss anyones else's beliefs, it is what I know. To deny what I know is not possible.
I am not asking anyone to know God nor believe what I am saying, No one needs to acknowledge me or my relationship with God. I will not change the way I speak of my love for God, my relationship with God, my knowing God.
I will cry it from the highest mountain because God is the essence of me.
God makes the best in me. God walks with me on my path that leads through this life and beyond.
God is the answer to all worries, all pain. Once I knew God my life forever changed.
Once I knew there is an afterlife new meaning to this life became clear. My convictions are strong I will share them and I will say what I feel.
In the future perhaps this can be considered... I cannot define God to anyone
I cannot help someone know God
I cannot bring answers to those who search
these are personal quests between God and each individual
So I think that should cover my abilities and lack of so perhaps others will not ask again my opinion has aways been one must find God, which for me is not religion, on one's own.
...
Speaking for myself... I ask because I do not know. I admit that I do not know... still, I yearn to know.
I can accept your beliefs and still reject it as I would any other religion because what you claim as truth are the same things that every other religion claims to know. The reason why you cannot explain God is because you do not know God. That is not a slam... just, welcome to the Human Race where none of us know.
All we are doing is not believing you... just as we would not believe message David Koresh, Pat Robertson or Usama bin laden carried. They all claimed to know... we did not believe them. If we accept yours as the truth... why shouldn't we accept bin Laden's message as the truth?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,401
no offense to the OP, but I wonder what it would take to shut this down. round and round we go. who is god , nobody knows!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
no offense to the OP, but I wonder what it would take to shut this down. round and round we go. who is god , nobody knows!!
...
Actually, I think this is a pretty descent discussion. I've seen other discussions deterioriate into a real pile of shit... this one is, generally speaking, pretty civil.
As with any of the great philosophical questions, answers typically raise more questions. Although I do admit, this particular discussion offers very few answers.
Still, because of things I've read in here, i am going to take a long look into the Eastern Religions on the advice of others here. And I like some of the insights regarding the nature of Man and his place in this world that other people have brought to the table.
...
As to the question, "Why Do We NEED to Believe in God?". We need to believe because we are human... and weak... and unknowing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
Options
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,401
no offense to the OP, but I wonder what it would take to shut this down. round and round we go. who is god , nobody knows!!
...
Actually, I think this is a pretty descent discussion. I've seen other discussions deterioriate into a real pile of shit... this one is, generally speaking, pretty civil.
As with any of the great philosophical questions, answers typically raise more questions. Although I do admit, this particular discussion offers very few answers.
Still, because of things I've read in here, i am going to take a long look into the Eastern Religions on the advice of others here. And I like some of the insights regarding the nature of Man and his place in this world that other people have brought to the table.
...
As to the question, "Why Do We NEED to Believe in God?". We need to believe because we are human... and weak... and unknowing.
May also suggest exploring some Native American beliefs too if you haven't already. I've felt a pull to the east and can dig the native too. seems to suggest a connectness to others and the environment around us.Whereas a J/C doesnt seem to at all.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
May also suggest exploring some Native American beliefs too if you haven't already. I've felt a pull to the east and can dig the native too. seems to suggest a connectness to others and the environment around us.Whereas a J/C doesnt seem to at all.
...
Thanx for that. I do tend more towards those beliefs that places Man's spirit within the realm of Nature and caretakers of our planet, rather than users of it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
May also suggest exploring some Native American beliefs too if you haven't already. I've felt a pull to the east and can dig the native too. seems to suggest a connectness to others and the environment around us.Whereas a J/C doesnt seem to at all.
...
Thanx for that. I do tend more towards those beliefs that places Man's spirit within the realm of Nature and caretakers of our planet, rather than users of it.
+1
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
why do some ask then when they know the answers? And 20 some odd pages worth?
If I speak my heart and say I know God that does not dismiss anyones else's beliefs, it is what I know. To deny what I know is not possible.
I am not asking anyone to know God nor believe what I am saying, No one needs to acknowledge me or my relationship with God. I will not change the way I speak of my love for God, my relationship with God, my knowing God.
I will cry it from the highest mountain because God is the essence of me.
God makes the best in me. God walks with me on my path that leads through this life and beyond.
God is the answer to all worries, all pain. Once I knew God my life forever changed.
Once I knew there is an afterlife new meaning to this life became clear. My convictions are strong I will share them and I will say what I feel.
In the future perhaps this can be considered... I cannot define God to anyone
I cannot help someone know God
I cannot bring answers to those who search
these are personal quests between God and each individual
So I think that should cover my abilities and lack of so perhaps others will not ask again my opinion has aways been one must find God, which for me is not religion, on one's own.
...
Speaking for myself... I ask because I do not know. I admit that I do not know... still, I yearn to know.
I can accept your beliefs and still reject it as I would any other religion because what you claim as truth are the same things that every other religion claims to know. The reason why you cannot explain God is because you do not know God. That is not a slam... just, welcome to the Human Race where none of us know.
All we are doing is not believing you... just as we would not believe message David Koresh, Pat Robertson or Usama bin laden carried. They all claimed to know... we did not believe them. If we accept yours as the truth... why shouldn't we accept bin Laden's message as the truth?
You are wrong I can not and will not explain God to you because it is not between the two of us.
You will find God yourself... or not. Very plain and simple that is.
I know God. That is also plain and simple.
You can except any truth you like or not. This the very reason why I will not explain God to you.
God is not a definition to me. You will not find God in the logical.
I still don't understand the atheist mentality here in this thread. It just seems to me that you continue to prick and prod one person in particular here and, to me, it shows an inherent insecurity. If you were secure in your faith in no God, I would think you would feel no need to keep picking and prodding. You'd let that person be in their faith in God and see no reason to continue to engage and torment their faith when it's obvious they believe in something you don't. In other words, let it be.
she invites the pricking and prodding by acting like she has some superior knowledge none of us are worthy of having. I let it be with others, but I can't with such a person. if someone claims to know something I don't, I ask them about it. Pretty simple. Has nothing to do with insecurity.
I'm pretty fucking secure in knowing I don't know god.
if someone told me they knew superman, even though I know that's not true, I'd still ask them what they talk about and how they met.
And I'm not atheist.
Check other threads. This is not always about god. she "knows" everything, no matter what the subject. her passive agressive nature says in one post that she doesn't know much with a little :oops: , but in the next one she says she knows something for certain but won't say how. it's pretty frustrating. like talking to my daughter who insists that it's saturday, when in fact it's sunday, and won't answer why she thinks it's sunday, she just says "I know it is".
I must be intriguing to you....
you spend much time talking about me and to me,
much unwanted attention.
why would you not just ignore?
you realize there is a feature for this here on the forum, yes?
It is called foe.
I have had to employ it myself ... works great, then you can let all this go
and be less driven to speak about me
fair enough?
And yes I have an opinion on many things and have some knowledge too...
go figure.
Occasionally I have even had people thank me for my words.
My goal is to help others
not only here on the board but others who read the forum.
I hope I can do this successfully.
Am I always right no, do I think I am right, like everyone else, it is an opinion,
most people think their opinions are right... right? And stand behind their words.
If it is advice I will hope it is good advice, coming from attempting to feel another's pain
understand their problems and relate that all to places I have been in my life.
and this am http://www.trappist.net/ They spoke with the monks who told of their
daily duties and routine. They showed the making of the Bonsai ... wonderful!
It was a very peaceful segment, the monks seemed fulfilled and happy
in their religion. It helped me to feel more relaxed just listening and watching.
My goal is to help others
not only here on the board but others who read the forum.
Help others with what? What makes you so sure that anybody needs or wants your help?
How about waiting for someone to ask for your help if that's what they choose to do, instead of presuming that everybody and anybody is looking to you for help or guidance?
Presuming that anybody here needs your help just reeks of arrogance and condescension.
My goal is to help others
not only here on the board but others who read the forum.
Help others with what? What makes you so sure that anybody needs or wants your help?
How about waiting for someone to ask for your help if that's what they choose to do, instead of presuming that everybody and anybody is looking to you for help or guidance?
Presuming that anybody here needs your help just reeks of arrogance and condescension.
Boy are you off base...
We are all intertwined here in this life...
we touch others we do not even know in ways we do not know
can be just a smile and it can be by being unkind also ... :?
I do not presume anyone needs my help
I feel this...
that we are all a piece of the each others puzzle of life
good and bad we fit together for the picture we each will have of our life
after here as we journey on
We are all intertwined here in this life...
we touch others we do not even know in ways we do not know
can be just a smile and it can be by being unkind also ... :?
I do not presume anyone needs my help
I feel this...
that we are all a piece of the each others puzzle of life
good and bad we fit together for the picture we each will have of our life
after here as we journey on
Is this supposed to be profound? Sorry, but it just sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. And don't go and interpret this to mean that I simply don't understand and that therefore I need your help.
With all due respect, The Moving Train is supposed to be a place for 'reasoned debate and discussion'.
As for anyone looking for, or needing help, why don't you just keep an eye on your pm's? I'm pretty sure that if anyone feels the need to ask for your guidance and/or help that they'll let you know about it.
Back to the question of needing to believe in a god, the Buddhist philosophy explains the why's in a way that I find very relevant and sums up things nicely- believe in yourself, search within to find yourself and not 'out there' to find an external source. This is what is said to explain the fact that those that follow this philosophy do not believe in a god (and yes this is about a god but also religion but not automatically together):
"There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Dp 188
Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him. Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha’s teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.
The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea. There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god’s words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god’s nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god. It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found. Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.
The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary. Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin on the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so. There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god. Some claim that belief in god’s power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite. One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties, through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god. Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept. Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding. He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.
You are wrong I can not and will not explain God to you because it is not between the two of us.
You will find God yourself... or not. Very plain and simple that is.
I know God. That is also plain and simple.
You can except any truth you like or not. This the very reason why I will not explain God to you.
God is not a definition to me. You will not find God in the logical.
...
It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong because there is no right or wrong. I'm not right or wrong... you are neither wrong nor right. Belief has no wrong nor right.
It boils down to, 'I don't believe you'... just as you do not believe in the doctrines or tennents of other religions. We accept those beliefs as personal convctions by the person who believes in them... we just don't happen to believe them.
Example: You say you know God. Which you really and truely believe. I accept that as your personal religion and wish you well. But, I don't believe as you and reject your doctrine as it applys to me... the same way I reject the beliefs of the David Koresh's, Usama bin Laden's and Jerry Falwell's out there. You are all telling me the same thing... that you know God. If it is so plain and simple... it would be simple to express in plain English. Which leads me to believe that either the person who tells me they know God, cannot express it because they do not know God... or they are selfish and claim God as their possession. We see this in religions and cults of all sizes.
The reason WHY no one, in the entire history of Man's existance, can describe or explain God is because God is beyond our comprehension... intellectually, spiritually and emotionally. People can convey their interpretations of God... but, that's as far as they get.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You are wrong I can not and will not explain God to you because it is not between the two of us.
You will find God yourself... or not. Very plain and simple that is.
I know God. That is also plain and simple.
You can except any truth you like or not. This the very reason why I will not explain God to you.
God is not a definition to me. You will not find God in the logical.
...
It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong because there is no right or wrong. I'm not right or wrong... you are neither wrong nor right. Belief has no wrong nor right.
It boils down to, 'I don't believe you'... just as you do not believe in the doctrines or tennents of other religions. We accept those beliefs as personal convctions by the person who believes in them... we just don't happen to believe them.
Example: You say you know God. Which you really and truely believe. I accept that as your personal religion and wish you well. But, I don't believe as you and reject your doctrine as it applys to me... the same way I reject the beliefs of the David Koresh's, Usama bin Laden's and Jerry Falwell's out there. You are all telling me the same thing... that you know God. If it is so plain and simple... it would be simple to express in plain English. Which leads me to believe that either the person who tells me they know God, cannot express it because they do not know God... or they are selfish and claim God as their possession. We see this in religions and cults of all sizes.
The reason WHY no one, in the entire history of Man's existance, can describe or explain God is because God is beyond our comprehension... intellectually, spiritually and emotionally. People can convey their interpretations of God... but, that's as far as they get.
I meant about why I will not and can not explain to you...
you are wrong about that...
about my motives and ability and why I choose not to explain to you.
We are all intertwined here in this life...
we touch others we do not even know in ways we do not know
can be just a smile and it can be by being unkind also ... :?
I do not presume anyone needs my help
I feel this...
that we are all a piece of the each others puzzle of life
good and bad we fit together for the picture we each will have of our life
after here as we journey on
Is this supposed to be profound? Sorry, but it just sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. And don't go and interpret this to mean that I simply don't understand and that therefore I need your help.
With all due respect, The Moving Train is supposed to be a place for 'reasoned debate and discussion'.
As for anyone looking for, or needing help, why don't you just keep an eye on your pm's? I'm pretty sure that if anyone feels the need to ask for your guidance and/or help that they'll let you know about it.
You miss the whole point of course ...you do not understand the connection,
that we are all intertwined.
That's ok I could have half expected that .. just mumbo jumbo to you as you said.
To you we might all be in a singular world I guess.
No you do not need my help ... help must come from a source you respect.
But if you feel you need help look into it.
And as I said my words are also directed at those people not members of the board.
Just people out and about, if they care to listen.
But with you not getting the interaction and importance of that in this life
the importance on our journey, then you can not understand my interest in sharing
and taking much from others, as well, the preciousness in that.
Do not reply to my posts if you feel they are not good enough for reasoned debate and discussion...
again you have a foe feature, but we've been through this before.
Hey, I know I'm late jumping into this thread, but I have a question for the OP...are you asking why we need to believe in God from the perspective of why humans feel the need to believe in God, or are you asking why God would require/need us to believe in him? I was a little unclear and was just wondering.
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Comments
"There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
Dp 188
Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him. Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha’s teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.
The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea. There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god’s words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god’s nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god. It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found. Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.
The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary. Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin on the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so. There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god. Some claim that belief in god’s power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite. One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties, through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god. Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept. Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding. He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.
Not complicated. A good account of your perception of god and where you're coming from. Not just 'god is', etc. Enables a debate.
You mention the afterlife - heaven or hell. These are teachings from man made religion. I don't know if you follow a religion but it has been said many times that one can find god without religion (which I totally agree with) but the same people who say that speak of afterlife and maybe some other 'teachings' which do come from organised religion (the word of god being passed on in the good books of various religions). Could this mean that, subconsciously maybe, there is still this association between god and religion whether one wants it or not?
I suppose that, subconsciously, there is an association between God and religion. I'm not sure to be honest. For me, there definitely is. I can't speak for others.
I know a lot of people frown upon organized religion, and may have good reason to do so. I know other support it fervently, and may have good reason to do so. For me, I don't necessarily feel organized religion is a bad or good thing, it just is, it's the people who make up the religion and their thoughts/feelings/etc that make it good or bad... but that's how I feel... and to each his or her own.
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Jesus thought he himself was God?
I have never heard that...I thought he was the Son of God as we are all God's children.
That was his point ... he was a man, just a man. I'm not sure he thought of himself as God
I thought God worked through Jesus...?
am I misinterpreting her words?
And he died as a man on the cross like many others...
the suffering the same, agony, fear, alone in death.
It was the events after his death that made him more... the miracle of Resurrection
that brought Christianity
The holy trinity (Christian) is one God, considered to be a unification of the three: God-Jesus-Holy Spirit.
He was just a man, but from what I recall, he was aware that he was the son of God. So Anne Rice is saying that for him to die the way he did was nothing like the death of an ordinary person. He was not alone in his death.. he knew he'd be reunited with his Pops.
But that's not the point she was trying to make. I believe she is in line with many of us here.. making her own interpretation of things. Her own religion so to speak. I am in complete agreement with her statements questioning a loving God and the motives behind who is saved and who is not.
I too am in agreement...God provides unconditional love to teach us the same.
she invites the pricking and prodding by acting like she has some superior knowledge none of us are worthy of having. I let it be with others, but I can't with such a person. if someone claims to know something I don't, I ask them about it. Pretty simple. Has nothing to do with insecurity.
I'm pretty fucking secure in knowing I don't know god.
if someone told me they knew superman, even though I know that's not true, I'd still ask them what they talk about and how they met.
And I'm not atheist.
Check other threads. This is not always about god. she "knows" everything, no matter what the subject. her passive agressive nature says in one post that she doesn't know much with a little :oops: , but in the next one she says she knows something for certain but won't say how. it's pretty frustrating. like talking to my daughter who insists that it's saturday, when in fact it's sunday, and won't answer why she thinks it's sunday, she just says "I know it is".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I guess god left that part out during your last conversation? :?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Speaking for myself... I ask because I do not know. I admit that I do not know... still, I yearn to know.
I can accept your beliefs and still reject it as I would any other religion because what you claim as truth are the same things that every other religion claims to know. The reason why you cannot explain God is because you do not know God. That is not a slam... just, welcome to the Human Race where none of us know.
All we are doing is not believing you... just as we would not believe message David Koresh, Pat Robertson or Usama bin laden carried. They all claimed to know... we did not believe them. If we accept yours as the truth... why shouldn't we accept bin Laden's message as the truth?
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Actually, I think this is a pretty descent discussion. I've seen other discussions deterioriate into a real pile of shit... this one is, generally speaking, pretty civil.
As with any of the great philosophical questions, answers typically raise more questions. Although I do admit, this particular discussion offers very few answers.
Still, because of things I've read in here, i am going to take a long look into the Eastern Religions on the advice of others here. And I like some of the insights regarding the nature of Man and his place in this world that other people have brought to the table.
...
As to the question, "Why Do We NEED to Believe in God?". We need to believe because we are human... and weak... and unknowing.
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Thanx for that. I do tend more towards those beliefs that places Man's spirit within the realm of Nature and caretakers of our planet, rather than users of it.
Hail, Hail!!!
+1
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
+ 2
You will find God yourself... or not. Very plain and simple that is.
I know God. That is also plain and simple.
You can except any truth you like or not. This the very reason why I will not explain God to you.
God is not a definition to me. You will not find God in the logical.
you spend much time talking about me and to me,
much unwanted attention.
why would you not just ignore?
you realize there is a feature for this here on the forum, yes?
It is called foe.
I have had to employ it myself ... works great, then you can let all this go
and be less driven to speak about me
fair enough?
And yes I have an opinion on many things and have some knowledge too...
go figure.
Occasionally I have even had people thank me for my words.
My goal is to help others
not only here on the board but others who read the forum.
I hope I can do this successfully.
Am I always right no, do I think I am right, like everyone else, it is an opinion,
most people think their opinions are right... right? And stand behind their words.
If it is advice I will hope it is good advice, coming from attempting to feel another's pain
understand their problems and relate that all to places I have been in my life.
"Where in the world is Matt Lauer".
They are going to sights in Georgia. It has been very interesting and beautiful.
The other day they were here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones ... very interesting
and this am http://www.trappist.net/ They spoke with the monks who told of their
daily duties and routine. They showed the making of the Bonsai ... wonderful!
It was a very peaceful segment, the monks seemed fulfilled and happy
in their religion. It helped me to feel more relaxed just listening and watching.
Help others with what? What makes you so sure that anybody needs or wants your help?
How about waiting for someone to ask for your help if that's what they choose to do, instead of presuming that everybody and anybody is looking to you for help or guidance?
Presuming that anybody here needs your help just reeks of arrogance and condescension.
We are all intertwined here in this life...
we touch others we do not even know in ways we do not know
can be just a smile and it can be by being unkind also ... :?
I do not presume anyone needs my help
I feel this...
that we are all a piece of the each others puzzle of life
good and bad we fit together for the picture we each will have of our life
after here as we journey on
Is this supposed to be profound? Sorry, but it just sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. And don't go and interpret this to mean that I simply don't understand and that therefore I need your help.
With all due respect, The Moving Train is supposed to be a place for 'reasoned debate and discussion'.
As for anyone looking for, or needing help, why don't you just keep an eye on your pm's? I'm pretty sure that if anyone feels the need to ask for your guidance and/or help that they'll let you know about it.
Great stuff!
It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong because there is no right or wrong. I'm not right or wrong... you are neither wrong nor right. Belief has no wrong nor right.
It boils down to, 'I don't believe you'... just as you do not believe in the doctrines or tennents of other religions. We accept those beliefs as personal convctions by the person who believes in them... we just don't happen to believe them.
Example: You say you know God. Which you really and truely believe. I accept that as your personal religion and wish you well. But, I don't believe as you and reject your doctrine as it applys to me... the same way I reject the beliefs of the David Koresh's, Usama bin Laden's and Jerry Falwell's out there. You are all telling me the same thing... that you know God. If it is so plain and simple... it would be simple to express in plain English. Which leads me to believe that either the person who tells me they know God, cannot express it because they do not know God... or they are selfish and claim God as their possession. We see this in religions and cults of all sizes.
The reason WHY no one, in the entire history of Man's existance, can describe or explain God is because God is beyond our comprehension... intellectually, spiritually and emotionally. People can convey their interpretations of God... but, that's as far as they get.
Hail, Hail!!!
you are wrong about that...
about my motives and ability and why I choose not to explain to you.
that we are all intertwined.
That's ok I could have half expected that .. just mumbo jumbo to you as you said.
To you we might all be in a singular world I guess.
No you do not need my help ... help must come from a source you respect.
But if you feel you need help look into it.
And as I said my words are also directed at those people not members of the board.
Just people out and about, if they care to listen.
But with you not getting the interaction and importance of that in this life
the importance on our journey, then you can not understand my interest in sharing
and taking much from others, as well, the preciousness in that.
Do not reply to my posts if you feel they are not good enough for reasoned debate and discussion...
again you have a foe feature, but we've been through this before.
Why do we need to believe in God? We don't. But if you do, all the best to you.
questioned at length about that
I agree it has been more about that than the topic...
I apologize to the OP for my part in that ...
sorry